Episode 4 - With Ella Orr

Happier Grey Podcast with Ella Orr

Helen Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Ella Orr. She's a personal branding coach and social media trainer and the owner of Much More Social, which she started in 2018. A former teacher for 30 years, she now uses her transferable skills when working with clients on building their personal brand visibility and social media strategy.

Hello, Ella.

Ella: Hello.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me today.

Ella: I'm delighted, Helen. It's wonderful.

Helen: Cool. So obviously we're here to chat all things grey hair, because that's one of the things that we have in common. So just wondering, cause I actually don't know the answer to this. Did you used to dye your hair?

Ella: Indeed, I did. I did. Yes. I can't remember when I started. It was probably when I reached my forties.

Helen: Okay.

Ella: 18 years ago was when I probably started dyeing my hair.

Helen: And did you have grey hair before that at all, or?

Ella: Yes, there were signs that it was going grey. You know, all through my life, I've always kept my natural hair colour, which was sort of black, very dark brown, sort of used to fluctuate between those two colours, depending where the way the sunlight caught it.

I didn't ever dye my hair just for sort of fashion reasons or whatever. The only reason that I dyed my hair was when the grey started to show. And I quite enjoyed that for a few years. It was probably quite a few years actually that I was, either going to a hair salon to have it dyed, and when I realized that how much that was costing me, I started doing it myself.

So yeah, I have been down the dyed hair route.

Helen: And can you remember why you started dyeing it in the first place? 

Ella: It would, it would have been for grey coverage.

Helen: Because you felt self-conscious about it, or you didn't like the idea of looking older?

Ella: I think it wasn't even the idea of looking older. I think it was pressure to a certain extent, gentle pressure, but you know, the kind of little comments, remarks that people would make not horribly, but just kind of, Oh, you know, there's no way that I'm going to, and they wouldn't be directed at me, but they would be just like off the cuff comments.

Like there's no way I'm going to allow my grey hair to show. And I was a little bit older than some of the people who I used to work with. So, it'd be kind of like, when are you going to dye your hair Ella? And I thought, well, you sort of like trying to drop me some hints here, because it's kind of like once you hit 40.

You ought to start drying your hair. I don't know. Weird.

Helen: Okay. And so, did they have any sort of comments about your appearance apart from your hair at that point? Or is it really just around the hair? 

Ella: Yeah, well, funnily enough, I do distinctly remember them saying, you know, you look young, or younger than you are. And I kind of don't like that phrase anymore, looking younger than you are, because I think we should be celebrating the age we're at, but you know, you look younger than you are, but if you dye your hair, if you keep your hair sort of like non grey, you'll stay looking young.

Helen: Uh huh.

Ella: That was the kind of messaging that was coming through to me. So it was that whole thing of, if you want, your kind of appearance, facial appearance and whatever to, match with your hair or your hair, to match your facial appearance, then you ought to dye your hair.

Helen: Okay, so obviously you dyed it for quite a few years, like the rest of us, when did you stop dyeing it?

Ella: It was certainly, when I started, started my business, just after that time, I think, because I retrained from teaching. I left teaching and retrained in 2017 and I work in social media and I was training in social media marketing and we had to run a campaign, as part of our, qualification, a part of our accreditation.

And so, I decided to do a campaign about staying fit and staying, mentally healthy, physically healthy, emotionally healthy when you reach middle age. So, I was kind of celebrating. You know, let's celebrate being midlife. And then I started to think to myself, well, you know, I'm celebrating and I'm saying, you know, we should be authentic and everything else.

And I'm dyeing my hair

Helen: Okay.

Ella: And it just doesn't, it just seemed to be a bit kind of like, if I'm really going to be true to myself and true to my audience, true to the people I'm trying to influence out there, in terms of saying, you know, here's me, I'm in my early fifties, I've changed my career, you can do it, and everything else.

Why on earth was I in a way, masking the age that I was by colouring my hair. That's why I decided to stop doing it.

Helen: Okay, so that was pre-lockdown then.

Ella: Yeah, it was pre-lockdown.

Helen: Oh, you were ahead of the trend.

Ella: I know, but I did take drastic measures in order to get to the, to the greyness.

Helen: Oh, I think you remember me telling me this. So, did you have your hair cut very short early on?

Ella: Yes. And I think that was the thing that probably did put me off. Doing it sooner, that whole kind of slightly off putting and I mean, this isn't meant to be a judgment on anyone at all, but that kind of horrible, kind of not horrible, it's not horrible, but moving from the kind of coloured hair to the right, Oh, this is it, I'm going completely grey.

Helen: Yeah, I think some people are more at peace with the stripe than others as they're growing it out. 

Ella: At peace with the stripe. So true.

Helen: And it's always a bit of a balance, so either you're going to have your hair cut very short and just short, sharp, I'm through it, and I can let it grow a bit after that if I want, or, if you can't face having it that short, and I couldn't, I'm one of those, then I ended up with my hair in a ponytail a lot until it was long enough to be able to be in a jaw length bob.

Ella: Yeah.

Helen: And at that point I had it cut and I had layers in it as well, just to sort of say, okay, let's get through this as quickly as possible. But then I have spoken to other people who are just like, well, I'm just leaving it. It'll take years, but that's fine. I'm comfortable with that.

Ella: Yeah. Good for them. Brilliant. Brilliant. As I say, it wasn't meant to be a judgment at all, but I think it is very much how, as you say, one, how one feels at peace with it.

Helen: Yeah, So, once you'd had your hair cut, or had the colour cut out, did you, did you have like a pixie cut?

Ella: Yes.

Helen: Really short. 

Ella: Really sure. And I was so lucky. And, and I remember it was my um, hairdresser at the time who happens to be a friend of mine and she said, Oh, Ella, it looks really good. I'm really pleased with that. And I thought, Oh God, she's just saying that. But when I saw it off, you know, when, once she'd finished doing it and I was looking at it, I thought, God, this does actually.

It does. This wasn't as painful as I thought it was going to be.

Helen: Which is always good news.

Ella: Oh yeah, because we have a very funny feeling about our hair, don't we? it's really personal.

Helen: It's very tied into our identity, I think. 

Ella: Yeah. Definitely. So, um, yeah, I was really pleased that she managed to pretty much cut all the colour out of it. And I was left with just the grey stuff. Or the greying stuff. That gradually got greyer.

Helen: Cool. So, how long did it stay that short for? 

Ella: Well that was the lockdown thing because the thing was Anne cut it very short, and then it just seemed to get shorter and shorter. And I was almost, kind of, challenging myself to see how short I could take it. I did have very, very short hair at one time. But then of course lockdown happened and I started to grow it.

Well, we all had to grow our hair, didn't we? Unless we cut it at home. So yeah, it was just, it was just growing and growing then. And, and I must admit, kind of got a bit unruly, but I haven't gone back to that very short hair. Since, but I might do, depends how I'm feeling.

Helen: Okay. Your hairs still quite layered now isn't it, it's just like a shortish Bob

Ella: Yes. Yeah. It's just like a shortish bob now. But underneath, funnily enough, it's really still quite dark. And when I go to, to the hair salon now and I have it cut into this sort of like quite blunt bob at the back, it's almost like two levels. There's the greying top part of it. And then underneath you can see where it's cut.

 You can see the black, black, very dark Brown, which I love. I love it. And my hairdresser loves it as well. She thinks it looks really good. She said it looks so, you know, it looks really good from the back. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? We never see the back of our heads. So, when, when people tell us it looks good from the back, that's great.

Helen: And so, what sort of reaction have you had from other people, and does it match what you were expecting when you decided that you were going to go grey? 

Ella: I think probably most people have been, well were oh you’ve had your hair cut. I think it was more like you’ve had your hair cut. You've had it cut really short. And then. The fact that I didn't, Really, you know, really kind of entertain the idea of, , doing anything sort of different.

I was just, I thought I'm just sticking with this haircut, haircut and the greying hair and everything else. And so sort of like every time I had it cut, people were like, Oh, You know, you've had your haircut and you can tell it's it's because, cause that's the thing with short hair.

You do need to keep it. You need to go relatively often to the hairdressers.

Yeah, yeah, because you get all of these, sort of, sticking out bits and whatever. And so, yeah, the reaction has always been, oh, it looks really good. And no one has ever made a comment about the fact I should colour it again.

Helen: Which is good.

Ella: Yeah, because it's become very much part of me. And I think because I celebrate it and I'm a huge advocate for us just, say celebrating and, acknowledging who we are.

Helen: I think aging is a privilege and it's good if we can feel comfortable celebrating it rather than hiding from it.

Ella: Yes, exactly. I really do feel that. Because otherwise it's a constant, voice in your head that wants to keep constantly turning the clock back and, we know we can't do that.

Helen: Yeah.

Ella: So, let's, you know, let's be grateful for what we've got. And that's life.

Helen: Yeah. I think that's a good approach if you were looking to have a happy life. 

Ella: Yes, exactly.

Helen: Is to be comfortable and at peace with who you are at the time that you're at rather than trying to turn the clock back. So, you've told me you have a teenage daughter. What does she make of your hair and your attitude to ageing?

Ella: She's never said anything negative to me at all about it. And I think that's wonderful. Whenever I've had my hair cut, she's always said to me, Oh mum, it looks nice. She's never said to me, Oh, you know, have you thought about having some colour on it or whatever it is, you know, she's never made any comments.

I mean, having said all that, I mean, she's only a teenager. I'm sure, you know, I don't know. She might have a different attitude in the future.

Helen: Well, I think teenagers are pretty easily embarrassed by their mothers, so. You're obviously in a good place.

Ella: But yeah, to be honest with you, Helen, I think even if she did say something to me, I'm kind of so, adamant, so sure in what I'm doing, with [00:13:00] this that I kind of think, well, you know, if you don't like it, stuff it.

Helen: Fair enough.

Ella: Yeah, well, that's kind of my attitude to most things especially, you know, to do with me personally,

but yeah, no, she's never made a comment and you know, my partner, my husbands never made a comment either. I mean, we're all pretty comfortable with the whole ageing thing. I mean, she's, the child of two older parents, but I think hopefully we make up for the physical signs of ageing with a kind of healthy mental attitude and hopefully, a positive, happy attitude to life.

Helen: Mm hmm. Cool. So, out of curiosity, have you got any friends who've chosen to go grey?

Ella: Now that’s an interesting one. No, it's really, really funny. And in fact, I've got two sisters, and, one of my sisters is a lot older than me and, she still colours her hair and, that's great and, she looks fantastic. I don't think she's ever thought about, you know, I'm going to be natural and go grey.

And yeah, I can't think of any friends of mine at all who are, most of my friends are in their late forties upwards. And none of them have gone grey. So, it’s really interesting. Though I follow lots and lots of people on Instagram. I'm a big fan of the women who, talk about going grey, and are really sort of like affirming about it. And that makes me feel I'm doing the right thing.

Helen: Yeah, I think everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with.

Ella: Yeah.

Helen: But I think also, certainly from my experience and the people that I've spoken to, it's probably been less scary going grey than you think it's going to be before you start, because you maybe think you're going to get a lot of negativity and everyone that I've spoken to has basically said, no, everyone's really complimentary about my hair now,

Ella: Yeah.

Helen: which is cool.

Ella: I mean, and wasn't there that, I mean, I don't think it's so much of a trend now, but certainly about 18 months ago, a couple of years ago, there was the whole trend of people actually colouring their hair grey.

Helen: Yeah. So, one other question then. So, if you had someone come to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what would you say to them? Silence. Silence.

Ella: Well, first of all, be positive about it, you know, have a positive attitude towards doing it because there are lots of people who are celebrating the age that they are at. And if that includes celebrating their grey, absolutely wonderful.

So, stay on that positive path, but also just think that, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a permanent thing because if you really, really don't like it, you can obviously go back to colouring it, if you want to, if that's the way that you feel, but I'm sure that someone wouldn't do that.

Because once you've done it, once you've set off on the road of embracing your grey and being happier grey as your wonderful podcast is called Helen, then I think there's no going back. There definitely isn't going back. And it does save you an awful lot of money. And also think about the condition that your hair's going to be in, because I certainly think that my hair.

 I mean, I absolutely love it. I love it. And I think it does, feel nice and it does look nice and, I don't think it would be enhanced anymore by having colour put on it.

Helen: I'm absolutely with you there, my hair, I used to bleach it, so it used to be in terrible condition and I used to get coloured every four or five weeks. And now I go to hairdressers about once every three months because my hair is not short like yours. My hair is really long. But it's in really good condition and it wouldn't have been had I had it this long and coloured just because it was so dried out by all the bleaching.

Ella: Yes, exactly. And I’m heartened by seeing when I go to buy shampoos and conditioners and hair products now that there seems to be far more. For greying hair and I think that's just brilliant.

Helen: Okay. Do you use any special products on your hair?

Ella: Not really. I mean, I try to buy good quality shampoos. I don't sort of tend to buy the supermarket brands or the well-known sort of cheaper ones. I'm quite happy to like pay five pounds for a bottle of shampoo upwards. So I do look at the ones that hydrate.

There was a brand, that I tried, which in fact it was quite expensive. , so much so that my husband bought it for me for my birthday, which I was delighted about. Cause it was like, you know, 10 pounds for a bottle of shampoo and 10 pounds with the conditioner.

 I'll try to remember what the name, name of it is. And let, you know, and that was really, really, that was really nice. It was just like putting a real luxury product on my hair.

Helen: Silence.

Ella: But yeah, I mean, usually I just sort of like, wash it and condition it. Occasionally I'll use a hair mask. And I use argan oil as well.

Helen: Okay, I have no idea what that is.

Ella: I tend to put that on my hair first of all,

Helen: Okay.

Ella: after I've washed it. To sort of keep it in nice condition.

But yeah, yeah, but I'm very proud of my hair. My dear departed mum and dad, you know, no longer with us, but both had a good head of hair, right up to the end of their lives. And, that's certainly my goal. They've set the bar high.

Helen: You can have a beautiful head of greying silver hair.

Ella: Oh gosh. I mean, my mom's hair was just glorious. It really was. And my dad still had a full head of hair till he sort of late, late seventies. And I've definitely inherited his curls.

Helen: Cool. Well, it's been lovely chatting to you Ella. I really love your hair. I love the fact that it's a bit bouncy and the fact that it's short, but not really, really short. I think it really suits you.

Ella: Oh, thank you so much, Helen. That's lovely. And as I say, I pay a lot of attention to women with grey hair and men as well, but especially women. And I just see the wonderful ways they have their hair styled. And I just think it's, it's brilliant, especially when you get all the sort of different shades

Helen: Yeah.

Ella: of grey and, their natural hair colour from when they were younger and everything else. It's all there and it's just, it's just wonderful. So yeah.

Helen: Cool. Right, well then, I shall wish you a good day for the rest of your day and hopefully catch up with you soon.

Ella: Thank you so much, Helen. It's been delightful speaking to you.

Helen: Cheers.

Ella: Bye.

Helen: Bye. Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier. grey. Have a great week.