Happier Grey Podcast with Corinne Lewis-Ward

Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye.

This morning I'm joined by Corinne Lewis Ward, an artist, designer and retail expert and social entrepreneur. She's worked within arts and culture for almost 20 years and has her own cultural retail business, Powder Butterfly. Her most recent venture is Creative Heritage Studios CIC, where she focuses on how the cultural and commercial can coexist successfully.

Good morning, Corinne. Thanks for joining me.

Corinne: Good morning.

Helen: On this beautiful rainy day in the North East.

Corinne: Yes. Well, it makes our grass greener, so we can't complain too much, can we?

Helen: This is true. Obviously, we're here today to chat about going grey. I thought I'd start by asking you, when did you find your first grey hairs?

Corinne: Oh, when I was 23, and maybe before that actually, but I just remember at my university, Northumbria University, they had some students who were learning how to dye hair. And as I was a poor student, I went in and the woman that was doing my hair was really shocked because I was so young and I had grey hair, but since talking about being grey, I found out that some people I know went grey when they were 15.

So that doesn't make me feel so, so young, you know, to go start going grey. But yeah, 20 around my sort of early twenties. Yeah.

Helen: Okay. I think my mum found my first one when I was 18, 

Corrine: Oh right, yeah. It’s interesting isn’t it. Yeah.

Helen: her reaction was interesting because she was like, Oh, you've got a great hair. And I'm like, yeah, you're my mum. Why pleased about it?

Corinne: Yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it? And then it's like the decision, do you pluck them out or not? And then I've heard things like, if you do that, then you get more and you know, stuff like that. So, yeah, but I just remember vividly having that conversation with that hairdresser and her being very shocked. Oh,

Helen: I'm presumably not thinking grey hair was a good thing.

Corinne: yeah, I know.

It's funny, isn't it? I kind of wish that I'd just owned it back then, but I think when you're in your 20s, you're perhaps a little bit insecure and, you know, very self-conscious of how you look as a woman as well. So, it wasn't really an option. So yeah, it's, it's a shame the kind of preconceptions people bring.

To, you know, grey hair. I suppose hairdressers, that's their business. They cover them up. So they're, they're not necessarily going to be helping you embrace that.

Helen: Yeah, maybe you're not the first advocate. So how long did you dye your hair for? I'm assuming you dyed it from your early twenties then.

Corinne: Yes. Yeah. I dyed it for over 20 years. And that in itself, obviously when you're younger, it's not such a big deal, but as you get older, that six weeks turns into every four weeks that you need to dye it and it's very expensive. And, you know, from my perspective, I just started to worry about the health impact of dyeing my hair, putting chemicals on my scalp for over 20 years and what effect that would have on me.

I think, you know, when you're young, you feel invincible or nothing. You're untouchable. And then you get to a certain age and you think, I don't really want to do this anymore. And, there's a number of reasons that I decided to stop.

Helen: So, when did you decide to stop? How long ago?

Corinne: You know what? It was, it was during lockdown. I think it's the same for a lot of women during lockdown. You couldn't get to the hairdressers. And, it just got to a point where I was thinking, can I live with this? What would life be like with grey hair? And started to grow it out. And didn't really worry too much about, you know, what it looked like.

Because I wasn't seeing many people anyway during lockdown. But I also got diagnosed with diabetes during lockdown. And it was quite a brutal diagnosis that I was given by the doctor that I spoke to. So I started to think about all of the things that might contribute to a healthier life. And adding chemicals to my scalp didn't really align with that new journey I was on in terms of my health and wellbeing.

And if I'm honest, I'm neurodivergent and I've always found the environment of hairdressers is quite difficult from the noise and I also find, conversation quite difficult if we're not talking about really complex, interesting things. So, it's just maintaining that kind of veneer of pleasantness that sometimes becomes quite difficult.

So, the kind of social element of getting your hair done I've found to be quite difficult, And, yeah, so for me it was just a case of at 45 I decided, Hmm, I think it's time to stop.

Helen: Okay. And so obviously that's what three years ago and your hair looks like it's fully grown out now.

Corinne: Yeah, pretty much is, I mean I went through a phase of, because I had highlights in my hair, of blending the grey, so there were more highlights, and I realised that was a mistake. Because I think, you think, oh well, it'll all just look grey, but then when the grey tint washes out, you're just left with highlights, so, pretty much it is, it is it's natural colour.

Although, I feel that there may still be a little bit left in the ends, but I wear my hair quite long, so it takes a while for it to grow out. But, I think the other reason that I didn't mention before was that, one of the symptoms of high blood sugar is hair loss. And I could see my hair was changing.

It wasn't as thick and healthy as it used to be. And I just didn't feel that the dye was going to help that process. It was probably going to make my hair more fragile and new hair growth that was going to come through. I wanted to protect. So, you know, the combination of dyeing and high blood sugar is not really good one.

I was thinking. Would I rather be balding with dark hair or have a full head of grey hair? And I thought, yeah, full head of grey hair would be nicer. And my grey is kind of at my temples. It's not a full coverage. I've got a bit of salt and pepper, but the most part, the grey is at the front.

 And I just quite liked it. I saw it as a bit of a fingerprint because everybody's grey hair is different, so it's completely unique to me, you know, and I really like that.

Helen: Cool. So, when you were growing it out, did you have it cut shorter at all, or did you just leave the current length and just. 

Corinne: I did have a good proportion chopped off. Yes. At one point and it was psychological in a way to make it feel like it was growing out faster. And also I think there's that element of, you know, when you've been dyeing your hair for a while you want to make it healthier so getting it cut helps it, so I did cut it.

It was kind of like shoulder length I think and then I continued to grow it out.

Helen: Okay, that's pretty similar to me. I had mine in the jaw length bob with some layers in it just because I reached the point of going, I really need to feel it's nearer grown out than it is still growing out.

Corinne: Yeah.

Helen: But, but I couldn't ever have the pixie cut cause that just would have looked hideous. So will have to decide where we can go.

Corinne: Yeah

Um, so what reaction did you get from your friends and family when you decided to grow your hair out?

Corinne: I think friends they're very encouraging and supportive, aren't they? And if you've got the right friends. And I think they also knew that the health journey was sort of connected to me going grey. And that there's a level of unmasking that's going on as well with my neurodiversity.

So, it was kind of trying to be more authentically myself. And also, I think with a health diagnosis, you often re-evaluate what's important. So, I started thinking about, what do I want rather than how do I want to make other people feel and I think as women we tend to do that, we tend to live quite a large proportion of our lives trying to make other people happy, and fitting in and looking good, and what society says looking good is, but when you're approaching middle age, you start to re-evaluate and hone in on your own values.

And I think that that's really important because you start to decide what do I want? Not what do I want other people to think of me? Family, it's kind of a weird one because obviously during COVID, we kind of lost two or three years. So, I think we all aged and we didn't see each other age gradually because a lot of my family lived down south.

And so I think for them it was a little bit of a shock. And I also think that there is a certain resistance, you know, with certain people they don't like ageing. And I for one, you know, healthier than I've ever been. I'm more active than I've ever been, I'm happier than I've ever been, and I have grey hair.

And it's that kind of acceptance of ageing that's helped me get there, I think. I think the other thing that's interesting is the ageism you might experience out in the world. So friends and family are one thing, but you might experience a certain attitude from young people about who you are, what you are, what your values are and things like that.

But equally so, I've got a 20-year-old and a soon to be 15-year-old and there's ageism at that end of the spectrum as well of, you know, how people disregard young people. So, it's kind of interesting being in that space where you can see it from both angles, you know. But I think, like I said, I've got to a point where I'm a bit, like don't care what people think. I'm just like, if you lived your life caring about what people thought all the time, it would be a life half lived. And I think when you get a health diagnosis that is potentially life threatening, it puts things into perspective and you start thinking, you know what? This is small stuff.

It's not important. What's important is that I'm living my life authentically and I'm doing the things I want to do. I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone and I'm squeezing every last moment out of it that I can enjoy and look back on and reflect on in a really positive way. I hope that answers the question.

Helen: It, does. Yes. Uh, one other question I'm interested about. When you chose to go grey, did your sort of style generally change in terms of like the way you dress and that kind of thing as well, or?

Corinne: Yeah, I think it's changing, I would say. So, one of the big things was, and it came with confidence was wearing red lipstick and it's kind of become my thing that I do now, especially when I'm working or I'm, you know, facing clients or, you know. I've got a stall on the Newcastle Quayside, so when I'm there the red lippy goes on because it gives confidence.

But, also because your colouring changes, having that flash of colour with the grey is really good. I suppose it makes you look less tired in some ways, so that works for me. Then I found that I was always err on a kind of colour palette of clothes, it was quite dark. I'd wear a lot of black before and things like that.

And what I've found is that lighter pink colours really work with my colour tone of my face and my hair. And interestingly, I've just ordered a new pair of glasses, one that is black rimmed with white, and that's very on brand for Powder Butterfly. But then another pair that are kind of slightly transparent, but they're pink, and they work really well with my colouring.

I would love to get my colours done professionally, but I tend to get more compliments when I'm wearing lighter colours now. So, it's clear] that other people are perceiving that that colour palette works for me, which is something I feel works as well. So that's quite an interesting experiment, but a lot of my wardrobe is very dark.

 I'm starting to think about the clothes that I buy now and buying less often, but buying better quality clothes that really suit my colour palette. And interestingly, I still buy black clothes. Don't get me wrong. But I just bought a dress recently that was very kind of festive. It's very green retro kind of pattern and it just worked really well. So even brighter colours that you might wear just liven things up a bit, which is nice but I think I'm really inspired by fashionistas who you know have a really eclectic mix of clothes that's kind of their style, their individual style.

And I wouldn't say I'm as out there as them, but I'm really inspired by women who are just owning their fashion and just saying, I want to wear what I want to wear. And if you don't like it, that's okay. I love that.

Helen: Yeah, I love that too. I love the fact that you're not choosing to fade into the background with grey hair, not reaching for the slacks just yet.

Corinne: No. Yeah, exactly.

Helen: And then just one other question for you, really, if someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about growing my hair out, what would you say to them?

Corinne: I'd say welcome, because I think the women who've done it are really interesting women. They're not defined by society's beauty standards. And I think that that's really interesting. It might be quite a tumultuous journey and a difficult internal struggle that you might have while you're going through the process.

And you might waver and think, do I want to do this? Don't I want to do this? But I think from my perspective, it's like, I really admire those women as well who continue to dye their hair. I've got no judgment whatsoever for anyone who feels that that's right for them. But I think when you, kind of accept the aging process, there's a lot of different things that come with it that are really rewarding.

I would say that you're perhaps your experience is valued in some ways and yes, you're always going to get certain people who think, oh, well, you're older, so you must be out of touch. You must hold these views and they might make superficial assumptions about who you are because you've got grey hair, but really those are not your people, you know, and I think what's really great is look at content online.

There's loads of great content, including this podcast, which is exploring. Why you would choose to go grey, and why it might make you happier, that you can dip into to give you the confidence to actually go for it. And connect with those women that are doing the same thing, because I think that there is a real community online now of people who are really excited about embracing the ageing process and what's so interesting is how young people actually look in terms of their facial features and there's a lot of internal work that you do, whether it be, you know, going to the gym more or looking at your diet and exercise, maybe taking collagen to support your health and things like that.

And that internal work that goes on to maintain a healthy life has definitely been important for me. Grey hair hasn't stopped me from looking after myself. And I often think that people say, oh, you're not, you're not. You know, I don't know how they describe it, but almost like you've given up on yourself.

I actually feel it's the opposite. By accepting the ageing process, I'm acknowledging that I need to not just do superficial things to look younger. I need to do internal things to stay younger and have a healthier life. And I think that that for me is a huge component to accepting the ageing process, because it makes you recognize that you may need to do certain things when you feel an ache or a pain. Maybe go to a yoga session or, you know, if there is a health issue that you chase up quicker, rather than looking in the mirror and thinking, oh yeah, I look 25, you know, you're actually, no, I need to knowledge that my body is nearly 50 and I have to take care of it in a different way.

 So that's what I would say in terms of going for it. Do it if it's right for you and you feel ready .And, there's a lovely community of people waiting to support you on your journey.

Helen: Brilliant. That's a great answer. I do think a lot of it is tied up into how we look after ourselves generally. And the accepting thing is a really great idea, because we can't fight ageing. It's going to happen to us anyway. So why not embrace it and make the best of it?

Corinne: Absolutely, and I try and talk to young women that I meet and say that if your only value is the way that you look then one day you will age and you'll have to re-evaluate that, and I think that going grey, you actually start digging, deeper into what is my value as a human, not as a woman, but as a human, what's my contribution to society, and who am I, beyond all of these kind of beauty standards that are set for me, that say, I assign value to you because you look a certain way. I think we're all looking to live a more authentic life and I'm not saying that dyeing your hair isn't authentic because it could be your choice, but for me, unmasking as a neurodiverse person, and getting rid of some of those sort of beauty standards that are set for me is, is a really important part of the process.

And I'm much more focused on how I feel rather than how I look. And I think, again, that's, that's a big shift that maybe you get to when you're middle aged, you start thinking, you know, I'm not bothered about actually sort of projecting a certain personality to the world. I just want to be myself, and that makes me feel good rather than projecting a version of a person that other people want me to be.

So yeah.

Helen: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I hope you've enjoyed our chat.

Corinne: I have. It's been brilliant.

Helen: Thanks, Corinne. Thank you. Bye.

Corinne: Bye.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.