Happier Grey Podcast with Sarah Jane Phelps

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Sarah Jane Phelps, your modern-day Mary Poppins. She's here to help you shift your perspective, to show you the magic you have inside.

She helps turn overwhelmed to organized and procrastination to productive by giving you the tools to put the power of self-belief into action. 

Good morning, Sarah Jane. How are you?

Sarah Jane: I'm very well, thank you, good morning. The sun is out here finally, so it's nice.

Helen: Yeah, I know. I'm in the northeast as well, and yes, it's actually sunny. We're in deep shock because it's just rained constantly for months. I'm going to start by asking you when you found your first grey hair?

Sarah Jane: I was about 21, 22 when I found my first one, but it wasn't one, it was a Mallen streak. So, I have, to the right side of my temple, a streak that's been there right since my 20s. Nowhere else on my head, just there. But my grandma went completely white at 23, so I kind of knew it was coming.

I'd always had, my grandad had like really gorgeous, winey, auburn hair, so I had very much a red undertone, although it was brown, my hair. It had that very warm, auburn-y undertone to it, other than this one, and my grandma used to say, that's my bit of hair I'm giving you, and this one Mallen streak, that obviously as I got older, grew.

But yeah, right since my 20s, I've had it.

Helen: Okay, and how did you feel about it when you first saw it?

Sarah Jane: Weirdly, I think because I knew grandma's story, there was half of an expectation that that would happen. And I think because it was just that one streak that was a bit quirky, I sort of quite embraced it, to be fair, and people would ask, you know, have you dyed that? Is it natural? Because it was just that one little bit, most of the time you couldn't see it because of how I styled my hair, but I didn't mind it, to be fair, because it was just that one little streak that made me a bit different.

Helen: Okay, so were you never tempted to dye it?

Sarah Jane: No, I didn't start dyeing my hair until probably I was in my 30s. I mean, I'd experimented as you do, and I'd had it copper, and I'd had it like a burgundy, that kind of, that reddy sort of mahogany almost it was, wasn't a hair dye just to call it, for fashion purposes. But I'd never dyed it or never felt the need to dye it to hide greys.

And because it was so white, I don't think it would have hidden very well anyway, because it was just that one little bit. So, it was probably in my 30s before I started dyeing it regularly to cover the greys, and even then, I only ever had it dyed to kind of like, my natural colour. I have in the past as a youngster, experimented and had some terrible hair disasters, but yeah, I didn't cover the greys I probably say to my mid 30s.

When they started coming through a lot more, in force, shall we say.

Helen: And can you remember why you decided at that point that you felt the need to cover the greys?

Sarah Jane: I suppose at the time, it was a point in my career where I was, rising quite quickly and it was to make me feel good about me. Because my hair had always had a, like I say, this gorgeous, sort of warm undertone. It wasn't red, but warm, reddy undertone. It always had a lovely sort of shine to it, and it had quite natural highlights in it always anyway, like it's multi-tonal I would say.

And as the grey started to come through, my hair colour itself changed, it became much cooler. So, I felt it looked dull. As opposed to the sort of warm, I felt the cool looked dull and flat. So, it was more just to give it that sort of shine and bounce, and it was about a self-confidence thing. You know, it was, I loved that hair colour, it was who I was.

So it was just to make me sort of keep feeling like me, I suppose. As part of that I was an area manager at the time, and I was going into stores, I was representing a brand. And it just made me feel better about myself.

Helen: Okay,

Sarah Jane: you know, to have nice shiny hair.

Helen: And how long did you dye it for?

Sarah Jane: Probably about 10 year. Trying to do the math really quickly, but yeah, probably about 10 year.

Helen: Okay. And why did you decide then to go grey? 

Sarah Jane: Life sort of decided for me, I suppose, partly, in that we hit COVID,

So, we went into COVID and obviously we couldn't get to hairdressers. And at that point, it didn't really bother me, I'm self-employed, so my businesses had to shut. But because I was self-employed and we didn't know what was going to happen in the world, I went and worked for Amazon, in the warehouse and actually I quite loved it.

Everyone kind of, you know, has their own opinion about that, but I absolutely loved it. But I was obviously in a warehouse, my hair was always tied up, it was always off my face. And actually, that sort of little streak, as you can imagine, when that's pulled up, it became quite an apparent streak and people would comment on it. I thought, well, I quite like this. 

So, when we came out of lockdown, where everybody else sort of dashed back to get their hair done. I was like, you know what, I'm going to embrace it. Because at that point, it hadn't gone completely grey, but there was lots more grey right through. But not enough where it was a line, if that makes sense.

So, I hadn't kind of got that root, that everybody else got because lots of it was still my own natural colour. Although it was coming through slightly cooler, unless you looked really close you couldn't see that, grow out line. 

And I sort of remember saying to myself, if I don't do it now, if I go back and have it coloured and put the red, you know, warmer tones back through and spend the next few years doing that, and I was having to start to do it more often, they were coming through quicker, the colour wasn't holding the same.

And I thought if I don't do this now, I'm gonna get to a point where I'm gonna have to either have it cut short. Which a lot of people do. Or go through that really painful stage where I'm gonna have to start having highlights in and blonde put through, which doesn't suit me at all, to sort of blend the line. Or just do, which there's a lady, I live in a very little village, up near Hampstead Forest, and there was a lady there who grew out like a black box dye to bright white hair.

She had literally a stripe that we all sort of watched just grow down her hair. And I was like, I do not want to be that person. So, I thought if I do it now, we'll just get more and more grey as it naturally comes through. I absolutely loved it. And it was almost quite liberating to just not have to worry about it.

Obviously saved me a fortune in getting it done. But for me, it was the time that it gave us back. It gave me back so much time from having to have it done regularly. I was like, I don't know why I haven't done this before, and I absolutely loved it. But it's funny as it's sort of, I mean, it's been four years now and it is, you know, grown out.

My hair's just past my shoulders. And I did get probably, when it was almost out, I maybe did get the last sort of inch and a half, two inches cut off it. So, it went sort of just up to my shoulders. And then I've grown it back again. But I didn't do the I’ll cut it all off and I'll grow it out, because I love my long hair. And I knew, like I say, if I'd left it any longer, it would've been a much bigger job, or would've felt much more difficult to do.

But at that point, it felt just the right time to kind of embrace it. I'd gone through a bit of a life change as we came out of Covid, as a lot of people did. My relationship changed, my personal circumstances, my business changed. And it was almost like a, this is the new version of me. I'd had that kind of reddy, glossy hair as that version.

And lots of people do, don't they? They have like a haircut when you have a big change in life. And I guess that was me embracing actually who I was, you know, this is who I am. I am this age that I'm starting to get grey hairs and my complexion's starting to change. But actually, I love this version of me.

I'm going to embrace all of it. And I think a big part of it was that it was just learning to accept all of me and all the bits of us. And just be proud of who I was. And so, it was quite a empowering, choice to make. in the end.

Helen: So, in terms of styling and image generally, have you found that you're wearing more or less makeup? 

Sarah Jane: Probably not more or less, but I've had to change my makeup. I've had to change the colour of my makeup.

My clothing. Some of my clothes now don't look the same because my hair obviously has changed. Then it changes your skin tone, you know, because obviously there's reflection and it's a lot cooler than it was before.

Like I say, I wouldn't say I wear it less and more. I still wear my eye shadow, I still always have my mascara on, always generally have a lip done. But definitely, change the colouring of my makeup. It's affected that for sure.

Helen: In what way?

Sarah Jane: Just because the colours didn't look the same so, you know, I've had to change my foundation colour because like I said, my hair's now cooler than warmer. And you know, sort of not as dark on my eyes. So, I still wear an eyeshadow, but I don't wear an eyeshadow that's as dark. Yeah, just a change in how I put my makeup on.

Helen: I've spoken to a few people who've gone for sort of some very bright red lipsticks now, which they didn't do before. And then I've spoken to other people who've gone much more natural. 

Sarah Jane: I always have quite a bold lip. I'm kind of known for that. Probably my biggest change about my eyes, I would always very much have quite a ombred sort of dark eye. And I have a much lighter eye colour now. I just put like a really soft sort of taupes, goldens, pale pinks on.

So yeah, probably less eyes and more lips than I used to.

Helen: Okay, and what about your clothes? Mm hmm.

Sarah Jane: Again clothes colours. I suppose as part of this reinvention of me, I love getting dressed up. Obviously, we met at an event and I was all, you know, dressed in a very fancy vintage dress and a big hair bow. I love to be dressed up. Somebody said the other day to me, you're dressing like you're coming from old money.

And I think they meant it as a bit of an insult, but I took it as a huge compliment. Because I'm always, you know, I'm always in a dress. I've generally always got heels on. And even if I'm just going out to do a few errands, I get dressed up, I like to feel dressed up. And I think I have so many lovely clothes that I would keep for special occasion or for best, as we sort of say.

And I was like, what is that? Like, I love dressing like that because I feel more me. I feel more confident, and therefore I show up as a better version of myself in that. So, I think part of it embracing that this is my hair, this is who I like to dress. So yes, I probably have changed since changing my hair, because it's given me that freedom. This is me, like it's not for everybody.

 I've got two very big, sort of almost like white highlights down the front that frame my face. It's very, very white, a lot of it. And I'm only, you know, 46, I say only, because I still feel very young.

And to me that's not old at all, to have as much grey hair as I have. And it still surprises me, the difference in reactions from people. They'll be like, oh, you're not going to dye your hair again? I'm like, no, I love it like this. And other people are like, I couldn't, I wouldn't. And yet, generally, most people are like, I love that you have, I wish I had the confidence to do that, I wish I was brave to do that, it really suits you.

So, I've had very little negative. It's more been, that they wish they could do the same thing, that they wish they had that sort of belief to do the same thing. And so hopefully will inspire people. 

I know I've got a very good friend who said she was always jealous of my fringe because I had lots and lots of grey. It came through at the front, much greater than the back. And she always said, oh, I wish I had. And then she did. She copied me going grey and now she loves it as well. So, I'm hoping I'm inspiring people by just accepting it and loving it.

Helen: A question for you then about ageing generally, and how you feel about ageing. Do you feel that you're kind of at peace with the ageing process and where you're at with it?

Sarah Jane: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's funny, isn't it? We were talking about this the other day with a friend. And I think some of it is I've done a lot of work on myself to, as I said, accept who I am, embrace who I am, be proud of who I am.

And that just makes me happier with all the things about us, all the, you know, the sort of defects as well as all the positives. And that absolutely comes across in, let's say, how I then represent myself and part of that is. That I, you know, I love that I'm the age I am because I'm still young enough to do all the things I want to do. 

But actually, I've got the wisdom of being the age I am, and learning all the lessons that I've learnt of the things that, you know, maybe I shouldn't have done over the years. I still think I've got lots of life in me left for sure. But I don't care and it definitely comes with age and experience and learning.

I don't care what people think of me anymore. And that for me to say I was such a people pleaser. I was somebody who absolutely behaved and acted depending on who I was around, to make sure that I was fitting in or that other people were happy. And I think that again comes with age and part of that has been embracing my grey hair and, you know, how I like to dress and how I like to be. Because I've realised over time, that it doesn't matter what you do, people will judge you either way. So, you might as well do what makes you happy. And the right people will find you, and be around you, and those that don't, they would still find something to pick at, so let them get on with it. And I think some of that, like I say, comes from absolutely the ageing process And I love that I now have that peace, sort of peace of mind, I suppose it is, comes with age.

So yeah, I'm embracing almost being 50, and coming to that, you know, kind of mid part of my life, hopefully, if I can kind of keep going. Yeah, I love it.

Helen: Okay, so moving on to the next part of your life then. Are you doing anything in terms of health, nutrition, fitness, that kind of thing, to protect yourself as you get older?

Sarah Jane: Yes, definitely. So, I've always been very lucky that, I've been able to eat what I want and not potentially, you know, not put a lot of weight on. I've always been reasonably active and fit, so not had to sort of overly think about that. But as I approach 50 and we've been, you know, sort of perimenopausal, then it does change.

Our metabolism changes, our reserves of all the things that we need to keep our body going changes. So, I'm very much aware now that actually how much sleep I get, which has never been great. How much I drink, because I'm terrible at drinking, you know, water. I live on cups of tea, she says, with one in her hand.

And just very aware that all of those things, you know, what I eat and how I eat, it's not just about what, it's how you eat your food and how you put things together. All has a huge, huge impact on then your overall health, both physical and mental. So yes, I'm definitely much more aware where I think I took, when I was younger, I took it for granted because I didn't have to work very hard at appearing to be fit and healthy. 

And as I've got older and had a few things with my health. Some related to being a woman, and being, you know, kind of hormonal. Others not, others related to other things and having immune issues. Then yes, you become much more aware. And again, I think that's something that, you know, has come with age, that actually, you know, I've got to look after this body, I only get one. I've got to start looking after it, and start making sure I'm giving it the best I can, like with anything else, to get the best out of it.

Helen: Okay, so does that mean you're much more conscious of having a more nutritious diet, or?

Sarah Jane: Yeah. Like I say, a lot of what it is, is how you eat, as opposed to just what you eat. Because I never really ate a lot of bad food. I make most of my food from scratch. I've got a gluten intolerance, which I've had for, over half my life. So that kind of, you know, grab and go food is difficult for me to eat anyway.

So, lots of what I make was always, made from scratch. And yes, I have, treats and things like ice cream and sweets, but not on a regular basis. Most of my meals were generally healthy. I don't eat enough. I don't eat breakfast I'm terrible for, and I've been much more conscious of that.

That makes a huge difference. And it's called food stacking. So, it's how you eat. So, it's not just what each meal is made up of. It's how you eat, in the order you eat your foods in, either across the day or within a meal. And so, I'm much more aware of those things now and how they then affect me personally.

Obviously, it's different for all of us. It's not a one size fits all. You have to learn what works for you. But to get the best out of and to stay the fittest that I can be, that's something I've put time and effort into than I ever used to think about before.

Helen: Okay, and what about exercise? 

Sarah Jane: Still a work in progress that one. Again, because I've always been quite a fit and active person, never really thought about it, so I've gone through phases of doing various classes. As I've got older, I am now a single mum with a little one, and although they keep me busy, it's not the same.

So, I'm having to be very, very mindful of that I'm still being active, but changing because of my time restrictions, being also realistic with what I can do and what I can't do. And obviously the body gets older, so you can't do the same things I did 20 years ago to stay fit and to exercise. So, it's been mindful of that.

And again, knowing what my limitations are, but also pushing myself that I'm still keeping fit. So yeah, definitely got to think about it more than I used to 20 years ago, for sure.

Helen: Yeah, I've started weight training about three months ago, because I read so much about how important it is for bone health and muscle maintenance, as you get in your 60s, 70s, 80s. 

Sarah Jane: I do a lot of Pilates, again, working your muscles but slowly so you're activating them. It's not high impact, and for me that's been a huge shift in how fit I feel, but actually in my ability to then, you know, walk around all day. So we've recently been down to London, I did almost 20, 000 steps there, and I couldn't have probably done that six months ago without then being in agony the next day.

And while, don't be wrong, I felt it the next day, my hips knew I'd done it. I recovered very quickly from it, and I think part of that is because I've been consciously eating better and consciously working the muscles that I wouldn't, you know, use on a day to day.

Helen: I'm going to ask you one last question. If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what would you say to them?

Sarah Jane: Do it. Absolutely do it. With no hesitation. I almost said that before you finished the question. Yeah, do it. I have had such a positive response overall, from doing it. And it's been so liberating. Yeah, just do it. Embrace it. Because it happens to all of us. And, you know, for me, it's a privilege I've got to this age and have grey hair.

Not everybody does make that. And so, just accepting who we are, whether that's grey hair, whether that's wrinkles, whether that's a change in our body shapes. Like, our bodies, whatever changes have happened, have got us to be where we are. It's our life experience that comes out and shows us physically how we are.

And I think embrace that, you know, embrace all of the things that have happened to you and all the things that you are. And for me, I'm much happier. much happier since I've embraced my grey hair.

Helen: Cool. Well, that's lovely to hear. I do think a lot of it's about being in a good mental health state. And if you're comfortable with your appearance and accepting that inevitable is going to happen.

Sarah Jane: Yeah. But it's been lovely having, having such a positive response. And like I say, you know, being able to say to other people that I wish I had the confidence to do it. Well, it doesn't take any, it's just, it's a choice, just, you know, but actually once you do, and then you get that positive reinforcement back, it's amazing what that then does to your mindset.

Helen: Mm hmm.

Sarah Jane: So yeah, just do it. Anybody that's thinking about it, just do it.

Helen: Cool. Well, it's been lovely chatting to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Sarah Jane: Thank you very much. You too.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.