Happier Grey with Chloe Thomas

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm joined by Chloe Thomas, a globally recognized e-commerce marketing problem solver. Author of several bestselling books, keynote speaker, host of both the award-winning e-commerce Master Plan Podcast, and the Keep Optimizing Podcast, and now the editor in chief at e-commerce Tech. So, I first met Chloe about a year ago when I was a guest on her podcast before mine even existed, when I was chatting about Pinterest Ads.

Hello, Chloe. How are you?

Chloe: Hello Helen, I'm good. It's lovely to get to be doing another podcast with you. 

Helen: Returning the favour all this time later. So, I’m going to start by asking you, when did you find your first grey hair?

Chloe: I think it was in my early 20s. It was definitely 20s and I think it was pre being 25 was when I first found one.

Helen: And how did you feel about that when you found it? 

Chloe: I don’t remember any major emotions about it. I know that it never crossed my mind to dye it. My grey hairs until about five years ago were entirely, just above my forehead. Both quite obvious, but not that obvious at the same time. Many people have seen me with, my fringe, which remarkably still hides about 80 percent of it. But at the time I wore my hair back so it wasn't hidden by the fringe then. 

I don't remember any kind of major searching of the soul or anything like that, it's kind of like being, oh right, we're doing this, okay, I wonder how long this will take. And what, 20 odd years on from that now, it's still slowly getting greyer and greyer and greyer. So yeah, no kind of like major crazy moment, but some kind of weird acceptance, I suppose.

Helen: Okay. So, just for context, you have very dark hair.

Chloe: Yes, probably should have said that, I'm not blonde. Very much dark brunette.

Helen: And most of your grey hairs are kind of underneath at the moment, so you're still quite dark on the top.

Chloe: It was just in the one place at the front and now it's just kind of exploded everywhere. So, there's like a clump at the front, and then there's an awful lot of single grey hairs around the whole of my head now. So it's a lot more obvious than it was. 

Don't think seeing me in person, many people would think I wasn't going grey. 

Helen: Okay.

Chloe: Whereas, for many years they could have quite easily got away with it. I remember being on a rugby pitch and my fringe blew up. And the rugby captain went, God, you're going really grey!

I was like, yes, yes, And I am. I've been this way for quite some time. Because the fringe blew in the wrong, in the wrong or the right direction, depending on how you think about it. But now I don't think anyone would be surprised if they got a flash of the grey because there's so much grey around the rest of the head.

Helen: I'm curious that obviously you had some amount of grey in the front from the twenties. Did you ever feel any comments or any pressure to dye it or not?

Chloe: No, I never did, whether I'm oblivious to that or not, I don't know. Now that it's becoming more obvious, there are moments I think, oh gosh, have I made the move from being one of the hip kids in e-commerce to being one of the older fuddy-duddies in e-commerce, you know. Am I going to have to work harder to come across as being up with the latest ideas because immediately people will see me and assume wrongly that I'm not. So, I ponder on that sometimes. I don't lose any sleep over that, but I do ponder on it, now it's becoming a bit more obvious.

Helen: Yeah. Cause you do work in a sector. I mean, digital marketing is renowned for being a young person sector or has always been.

Chloe: Well, yeah, and it's a sector that's kind of going through its growing pains as well. You must experience this as well. We're no longer in the wild, wild west of, yeah, you just do this and it'll work. It's amazing. And all this stuff. And it's like now strategy and story and messaging are so much more important, that it's like we're growing up as an industry.

And I think that's causing some fascinating shift in who are the people you shouldn't be listening to. So that kind of all comes into it as well. It's interesting.

Helen: So, having the grey hair might not be a bad thing.

Chloe: Well, I'm not going to get rid of it. So hopefully not.

Helen: Neither am I. So, going back to your twenties then, would you say you were sort of quite a confident person at that stage in your life? 

Chloe: Yes, but no, can we say? I mean, I think I've always had an innate belief in my own abilities. But there's always been scenarios where I've been scared to be. If we took it from the outside perspective, I think most people would have said I was confident in my 20s. Whether I would, behind the facade, agree with that or not, I don't know.

But I think I probably, people assumed I was confident, yeah.

Helen: I'm curious just because it's so unusual, for that first grey hair, not to knock people's confidence a little bit, and worry about ageing, and therefore very often reach for the dye. And obviously that's not where it went with you.

Chloe: I was thinking about this, getting ready to be on your show, about why is it it's never occurred to me to dye it. Because when I was in my teens, I was desperate to have blue hair. Which I seemed to think would miraculously happen without bleaching it, because I didn't want to bleach it because I'd heard bad things about bleaching.

So, there were a couple of pretty dire attempts to turn it all blue, which obviously didn't really work. If you're trying to turn something that's very dark brown blue without using bleach, it's not going to happen. 

But I've always been heavily motivated by an aversion to waste, whether that's reusing every scrap of paper until there's no space left to write on it, or that sustainability elements, or the wasted opportunity of an e-commerce business pursuing the wrong marketing strategy.

Waste is like the common thing across most of what I do. And I think the wasted time, effort, energy and money of dyeing it, for something so superficial, is probably why it was never a big thing for me to dye it, you know? It's kind of like, all right, we're going grey, let's get used to that, but we're not going to dye it because that costs money.

Not that I'm tight, you know, I've happily spent stupid money on lots of things. But it was like, right, so I've got to spend an extra hour at the hairdressers every month, and it grows out. and then costs money, and it's fundamentally bad for you. It just logically, it made no sense.

But in terms of my emotional why make up, it made no sense as well, because it was like, well, why would I waste my time doing that, when it's so on paper pointless? Although I'm sure there is some research saying that people are more likely to buy from women who don't have grey hair or something. I don't know if that makes any sense at all

Helen: That is just really interesting because you just don't seem to have been impacted by the societal pressure to conform in terms of looking a certain way. 

Chloe: But yet, I do bow to societal pressure. Endlessly. It's quite interesting, isn't it? I would love to, not ever wear makeup for work, for all the above stated reasons. But I know that I look better in inverted commas on stage, and I look more powerful on stage when I've put some makeup on.

And I know in a sales meeting it has more impact if I put makeup on, because that's what the research says. But I haven't factored that into the hair. It's weird. I'm a person of contradictions, maybe.

Helen: I think everybody's a person of contradiction.

Chloe: Very true.

Helen: So, talking about ageing generally, then, would you say you're at peace with the aging process? 

Chloe: I think I'm fascinated by the ageing process. I'm about six weeks in to hitting another one of the big ageing moments. So, as we're recording this, I'm 43. And about two years ago, I got a pair of glasses. I've had 20 20 Vision, up until now. And the whole extending arms in order to read menus has been creeping up.

And about six weeks ago, overnight, I went from being able to work at the computer all day with no glasses, and the glasses just sat in their box. Couldn't see very well first thing in the morning, but the rest of the time I could just ignore the glasses, to now I have reading glasses within arm's reach all around the house. I have taken them off to record this podcast which is stupid because you're not recording the video, and I can't look at the screen because I know it will give me a headache. But I now have to wear the glasses the entire time I'm in front of the screen at work, or I get headaches.

And it's been like an overnight thing over the last six weeks. And I'm fascinated by it. I'm fascinated by the fact that for some unknown reason, I have put down the glasses to do this call with you. The last three calls I've done today, I've worn the glasses. I don't know why I've taken them off for this one.

And like, just the fascination of how I'm reacting to the Glasses situation. In terms of being quite excited at buying lots of pairs of glasses. I got them all off Vinted. They're all little one percent reading glasses. They're now littered all around the house. 

But also, I do occasionally take them off for webinars and things. It's like, why are you doing that? Because you feel more comfortable with them on, but yet you're taking them off for some things that involve video, and quite randomly. So I find that kind of like, examining myself in quite a fascinating way. So, I think the whole getting old thing is broadly fascinating.

With the occasional moment of utter intense panic and fear.

Helen: Okay.

Chloe: Yeah,

Helen: So, what are you doing or are you doing anything to look after yourself as you age?

Chloe: Yeah, loads of stuff. Or trying to kind of shift habits and behaviours. I think the one really cool thing as you get older is you understand yourself better. And you hear yourself better. Like the outside voices get lower and your inside voices get stronger. And you go, I don't actually want to do this, why am I doing this?

You get that realisation before you step out the door, rather than three hours after you step out the door going, oh my god, why did I come? But you work that out before you leave the house. So definitely listening to that voice.

I've just started working with a kind of fitness and health instructor coach person, to help me adapt diet to the changing female perimenopausal body. I take an impressively large range of supplements now, including evening primrose, which is an amazing supplement. Couldn't be without that one.

 Rather than, ignore it, trying to go, right, okay, this has happened. How do we improve this? How do we adapt? How do we set ourselves up for the most enjoyable long range? It's like a new stage of life, which is rather annoying, because a lot of the rules and the things, and the stuff you understood from before have just disappeared. And now you're kind of having to get used to a whole new operating system but the quicker you get used to that, the more joy you can find in it.

So that's what I'm trying to do, is to adapt fast.

Helen: And what about exercise? 

Chloe: I'm trying to change diet and exercise. I don't do anywhere near enough exercise. So, we're only, eight days in at the moment, and there was a big hiccup at the end of last week. So, I've probably successfully followed the new path for about five days in total. Trying to up the daily step count, as the main cardio, and then also trying to start doing some weights to build up the muscle mass, because apparently muscle mass disappears.

And that's the bit I'm particularly failing on at the moment. I'm doing quite well on the food. I'm doing vaguely well on the steps, But the weights bit is my challenge. But it's finding the time, it's habits, it's not will, it's not ability. It's putting everything together to make space to actually do these things. It seems to be the most difficult one. 

So, I've got the summer to nail that habit. Fingers crossed.

Helen: I started doing weights in April and I basically go to a small group training session twice a week, so I do the school run and drop my daughter, and go straight to the gym, and don't return to my desk until after I had completed the session. And that seems to be quite good in terms of being a habit.

Chloe: Luckily as I kicked all this off, I discover one of my friends who lives not very far from me. She does a woodland walk every night at five. How she manages to do that, I have no idea, but I join her one night a week. So that's a really good hour long walk once a week. And then, somewhere between Wednesday and Sunday, I've got to manage to fit in three weight sessions.

And I just haven't quite worked that out. I've got the weights. I've done it once, I know it's easy, it's all stuff I've done before. So, the only barrier is actually finding the slot in the diary to make it work in a way that is repeatable, and endlessly repeatable.

Helen: A very different question now. So, the women that you're sort of surrounded by in your life, have any of them chosen to go grey? 

Chloe: Not many, a lot are dyeing, of those who are grey. My mum decided to embrace the grey during the pandemic, as I think many people did, so, she decided to give up on the bottle, partially. I think she still has some level of colour put through it, but it is fundamentally, mainly grey. 

But other than that, most of my friends are not yet, making those kind of decisions. They're just carrying on as per.

Helen: I'm guessing they're just so used to your hair being how it is that they never say anything to you about it?

Chloe: No, not yet. I think there's going to be a point as it gets greyer, that I may consider dyeing it all grey. Like the in betweeny stage, I think there may come a difficult point there, but, I'm quite looking forward to it making its mind up and deciding what it's gonna do, you know?

That would be quite nice.

Helen: I think the bad news is it doesn't do it suddenly because I'm like, my hair's very white at the front, but the back's still quite brown. So overall, it just looks like it's got highlights. I was kind of inspired to go grey by a woman I worked with who had totally white hair and , I really want my hair to be like that, but I have no idea when that will be.

Chloe: Yes, I quite like the idea of just going completely there, because it's not just, and please do correct me if I'm wrong on this Helen, but it's not just that your hair's going grey, it's that your complexion's changing and other things are changing isn't it? A long time ago I had my colours done, you know, for what colours you should wear. And they say that changes as you go greyer. What colours you can wear and you can't wear to make yourself look your best, alter because it's not just the colour of your hair that changes, it's your complexion. So, you kind of just have to trust that it will all do it in the right order and at the same speed. Generally, I just find it quite fascinating.

Helen: Yeah, I think you're probably safer not dyeing it because your hair and your skin are in step with each other. and that was one of the things I used to find because my hair was bleached blonde, and quite often it made me look quite drawn and washed out. And with a lot of people, especially as they get older, if they're dyeing a solid dark colour, their complexion is just no longer in the place where it looks natural with that hair colour. So, I guess it becomes more and more obvious, the more your hair is fully grey, then the more your complexion has probably moved as well.

Chloe: Yes. I think, even if I end up with the inverse, you know, with, one dark stripe and the rest grey, I still don't think I'll dye it. I think I'll just let it continue.

Helen: It would seem strange for you to dye it now, having left it all these years.

Chloe: wouldn't it? I do sometimes fantasize about maybe finally getting that blue hair I've always wanted. You know, just putting some powder through it or something to create some blue stripes. I like the idea, but then you come back to the waste of the time and the energy, and I don't think it's actually going to happen. 

Helen: Perhaps what you need to do is just get hold of some of the purple shampoo for grey hair, and use a lot of it, and then you probably would get purplish streaks in the white bits. Not quite blue, but

Chloe: But almost there. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. But yeah, for now, I just let it do what it does and try and keep up with it.

Helen: I'm going to ask you one last question then. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what would you say to them?

Chloe: I would say, what do you have to lose? You know, why not give it a try? Because it's one of those things you're not going to understand how it impacts, until you actually give it a try. You know, like those things in life that you can ruminate on. And you can wonder about, forever, but you're not actually going to know if it's going to work for you or not until you actually do it. And, as I understand it, and I'm not an expert on these things, you can, either let it grow out, or you can kind of force the hand and use dyes to get yourself there, and so it's a less obvious growing out. 

But then you can always dye it back again if you discover you hate it. You know, wear it for a week, see what happens, if you don't like it, you can always go back. I think the fears that sit around it are greater, than the reality of what happens if you are grey, I think, but then I'm only partly grey. So maybe I have a rude awakening to come. 

But then I'd also say, if you want to look at it logically, look at all the money, time and effort you spend on, changing your appearance, and you know you get all of that back immediately. And then also there's not many dyes that are good chemicals. So, you've also got that fact you're essentially putting some form of nasty on you, in quite an intensive way, quite regularly, which can't be good in the long term, I would have thought. 

I think there's plenty of arguments for dropping it, but I think fundamentally you've got to give it a go. See what happens.

Helen: If you're in the right headspace, then It can't hurt to try.

Chloe: If you're in a really low headspace, you know, if life's a real struggle, and you're worried about doing it, be kind to yourself. Just carry on dyeing it, you know, and do other things. I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer, to be honest. I think you have to do what feels right for you, but I also don't think you should be scared of changing it if you want to change it.

Helen: Cool. Well, thanks so much for joining me. You've been a very interesting guest, very thoughtful guest,

Chloe: Thank you. It's been, it's been cool. I'm chatting with you. Maybe I should come back on in 10 years when it's actually completed its migration.

Helen: If I'm still podcasting in 10 years, it's a date.

Chloe: Excellent.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.