Happier Grey Podcast with Petra Fisher

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm joined by Petra Fisher. She works with value based, purpose driven, impact making business owners to use LinkedIn as their main marketing channel, so they can turn their network into raving fans, referring ambassadors, and amazing clients. And Petra is based in Amsterdam. Hello, Petra. How are you?

Petra: Hello Helen, thank you for having me. Yeah, well thanks, yourself.

Helen: Yeah, not bad. It's pouring with rain here, so

Petra: Alrighty.

Helen: that's never the best day.

Petra: Of course, it is, skies turn grey when we talk about grey.

Helen: It's true. Also keeps the world very green around here.

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: The first thing I was going to ask you was, can you remember when you got your first grey hair?

Petra: Oh yeah, I know that one, I was 23. Because we had a friend who was a hairdresser, I think, I don't know, new friend, so she came to the house to cut my friend's hair and my hair, and then she said it was grey. And I was like, no way. And my friend said, yeah. And I said, well, pull it out. Show me.

And so that was the first one at 23.

Helen: What colour was your hair before?

Petra: Well, so that's hard to tell because I'd been dyeing it since I was 15, but naturally it would be dark brown, I guess.

Helen: Okay. So, you started dyeing your hair when you were 15.

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: I'm guessing that was being a bit experimental with it and trying lots of colours, is that right?

Petra: Yeah. It was always just for fun. You know, I started out just with the henna kind of stuff, because it was supposed to be natural, and then later on wanting different colours. So, yeah, pretty much I've had every colour except from really blonde or pitch black, but any shade of red or grey or something in that area.

 Yeah, I tried.

Helen: Okay. But you didn't do any of the sort of like blue hair or purple hair type of thing? 

Petra: No, and I want to, but now my daughter won't let me. So,

Helen: When I was in my teens, I wanted to have a blue streak, one side and a purple streak the other, but my mum was not up for that. So, it never happened. Anyway, you found this first grey hair, you would dye in your hair already. So, I'm guessing that you just continued to dye it.

Petra: Yeah, I only remember that first one. I have no idea what happened in the next 20 years. As I said, I was just colouring it different colours. Have different cuts, you know, have the shaved sides with funny patterns cut into it. Yeah. Any kind of hairstyle, hair colour it’s just all good fun.

Helen: So, for you, your hair has always been a way of expressing yourself, would you say?

Petra: I guess so. Yeah. I'd never even looked at it like that, but it was just something I did.

Helen: Were you as experimental with your clothes or just your hair?

Petra: When I was at that age, I was mainly into punk rock, so, you know, not much to experiment with your clothes as long as they were black and old and torn, so that was quite easy.

Helen: When you were dying your hair, then that was still just for fun rather than actively to cover the greys, would you say?

Petra: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, for me, the opposite happened. Cause I’d always been colouring it, just purely for, oh, what colour do I feel like? And because it was all these different shades of either red or brown, and my hair was dark brown and it's curly and it's messy. So, you didn't really notice the outgrowth. So, it didn't matter if I waited six weeks or 10 weeks, cause even if it was a bit messy, you didn't see it.

I stopped dyeing my hair when I was getting noticeably grey, because when you sort of part your hair, and there's that one centimetre straight grey line, that looked stupid. So, then either had to really regularly dye it or touch ups or whatnot.

I was like, I can't be arsed with that. So that's when I stopped.

Helen: Okay, and how old were you then?

Petra: I tried to find pictures, just before this to figure it out. So, I must've been around 48, 49, somewhere around there, I think. 

Helen: And how old are you now?

Petra: 56.

Helen: Okay. So, seven, eight years ago.

Petra: Yeah

Helen: Which is probably before the bulk of people. I think a lot of people went grey in lockdown. Um,

Petra: Oh, probably because they go to the hairdressers. Look I used to do it myself, you know, so.  But yeah, I guess you're right. I think I heard about that. How a lot of people, during lockdown, when they couldn't go to the hairdressers, and then they sort of bit the bullet, and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. No, I wasn't one of them.

Helen: What sort of reaction did you get from people when you chose to go grey?

Petra: Yeah. So, of course first is that period where the dye is still sort of growing out. And so, at some stage that starts to look ugly, cause it's just down the bottom. That's when I decided to cut my hair short cause I was sick of it. So, I said to the hairdresser, look, do what you have to do, but I don't want to see anything anymore that’s not my natural colour. 

So, people reacted more to it being short.

Helen: Okay.

Petra: And the other funny thing was cause for some reason, if you were to draw a line around your head, sort of like from your nose and then the around to the back. All the hair that comes out of my head below that line is still very dark and the hair above that is grey.

So, when it was fairly short and that was really noticeable. That's when people thought that the grey was dyed, because apparently that was also a thing for a while, by even people in their 30s. So, because they're quite distinct two colours, people thought that the dark was still my natural and that the grey was dyed. It was really quite interesting. 

But, no, only, because she was in her teens then, I think, so only my daughter protested a bit at first and tried to convince me to die it again, because, you know, now she had an old mum. And I was like, well, tough titties, but other than that, I can't really remember anyone sort of responding to it.

Helen: Did anyone compliment you on it?

Petra: Yeah. Like I said, at first because of the two tone and they thought that was done on purpose and I was like, nah, that's just how it comes out of my head. But yeah, yeah. People loved it. You know.

 And also of course, because I'm online so much, so I had to update my LinkedIn profile picture, you know, normally you can get away with it for it, I don't know, three to five years sometimes if you don't change that much. But because I went from first shoulder length to short and then at some stage to fully grey. So, I've had new profile pictures a little bit more regularly so that when people meet me on zoom or in person, I still looked like my online presence

Helen: They recognise you.

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: Okay, so during those first sort of few inches of grow out, how did you feel about your hair?

Petra: Do you mean when the grey started to show?

Helen: Yeah, when you just add a little bit of grey, maybe four or five centimetres of grey, because I'm guessing that that was before you had it cut short?

Petra: Yeah, so the grey I quite liked. And this is interesting cause normally, I am not much concerned with my looks. I don't do fashion. I don't do makeup. But I was actually pretty pleased, I thought, ooh, that’s a pretty neat colour. 

It was more at the ends that was still brown, especially, you know, when you've dyed your hair and it's been too long. The colour also gets a bit dull or faded. So, I was more concerned about the remnants of the last time I dyed it. 

And the grey, you know, and at first there was still, more dark hair a bit in there as well, but there was definitely grey everywhere. It wasn't just a few, and I quite liked it. I thought. ooh, I'm kind of lucky this is a pretty cool grey, 

Helen: Have you left your hair short since you've gone grey or have you experimented with having it longer again? 

Petra: Yeah, bit of both, but because it’s also very curly and fluffy, so once when I tried to grow it a bit again, it was just like, yeah, I don't know, that just for me, it didn't look good combined with the grey. Although at the moment it’s a bit longer than I’ve had it for the past few years.

So, I’m just experimenting again because that is, the only thing, I miss about colouring my hair. It was never about covering up greys. But it was just like so easy to, you know, see something different when you look in the mirror. And when you can only do that by growing or cutting it. 

Helen: Yeah.

Petra: Obviously, it takes a lot longer to have some kind of changes. So, at the moment I'm letting it grow a little bit. 

I have no idea if I actually want to grow it or not, but then If I get sick of it, at least there's a bit more, so we can do some different haircuts with it again, you know. Have that asymmetrical at some stage where that side that never wants to sit properly anyway, had that really short that had my good side, a bit longer.

I don't know where this is going at the moment, but, I've had it mainly short, but again, trying to have different kinds of shorts, cause I get bored with, having it look the exact same all the time.

Helen: See mine’s really long. So, I do have quite a lot of options as to what I can do with it in terms of styling.

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: I was going to ask you a more general question about women in Holland.

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: And, how many of them go grey? Is it normal to go grey at your age or would most women be dyeing their hair still?

Petra: Yeah, so I have no idea in general. But for example, and this is a total generalization, not meaning to offend anyone, but if I compare it to the US, where you see people in their 70s or older and still dyed, and you it looks like that mismatched the hair colour and the face and skin. I don't see that so much here. 

I'm sure there's still people that dyed quite long. But also as you mentioned earlier, I do think that, I heard a lot of people, during the pandemic when they couldn't go to the hairdresser to sort of think, oh, well I'll stop it then. But if there is like a bit of a cultural thing that leans more towards natural or not, I couldn't tell you.

Helen: Which is interesting because we were saying before we came on air, that one of the things that I saw when I was traveling in Europe is the huge difference between the queues going to the UK, and the queues going to other countries. In terms of women, probably in their forties, fifties, sixties, where for the UK queue, you'd see an awful lot of bleached blonde hair, some dyed brown. And very few women, certainly before the pandemic, slightly more now, allowing their hair to go grey. 

Whereas if I was looking at queues going to Germany or France, for instance, [0that there was a marked difference in terms of more people accepting the natural process.

Petra: Yeah. And the interesting thing is, cause like we said, I stopped, what did we say? Seven, eight years ago. And recently, I pulled out some pictures from just before, and obviously I was also that much younger. 

But now with my daughter looking back, it isn't as if it was unnatural those last few years that I still dyed it, but she now agrees, looking at me now and looking at those pictures that yeah, you know, just the natural that it really suits me and looks good.

Her big concern was because I've got curly hair. You know if you got curly hair and grey and short that you suddenly look like one of these little grannies. So, I was like, oh shall I put, shall I put a blue ring through it? But um,

Helen: Get a shampoo in set.

Petra: Yeah,

Helen: Can I ask you about ageing generally. 

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: And how comfortable you are with the ageing process and where you're at with it?

Petra: I'm totally happy with it. It's not just the grey hair, but also the more wrinkled skin in your hands and this and that. I don't know what it is, but there's something in me that, well it's not so much like makes me feel grown up, but to a point, you know, it's like, I like it. 

I saw a video the other day of, a doctor in a cosmetics clinic, and then he was asked like, well, have you had any treatments? And he's like, well, how old do you think I am? You know, and the interviewer says, well, mid-thirties. And that's what I thought, and he's like 49. And I think, why? Why? When you're 49 going on 50, why do you want to look like a 20 or 30-year-old? 

So, I have found myself and I haven’t put any thought into this beforehand, but I find myself very comfortable with it. I always had it like, when I turned 30, I just thought it was a round number or big party.

I wasn't like, oh no, now I've lost my 20s, you know, so things like that. This year I turned 56. So, I had a moment where I thought, huh, that means I'm closer to 60 than to 50. But then I thought, I'm still the same in relation to all my friends or other people, you know?

Helen: Yeah.

Petra: So, it’s yeah so. But it’s a good question because, I had never really given it much thought. And so, it’s more as I’m getting older and as I see the hair goes grey, there’s some wrinkles and. That I look at myself and think, I’m actually really, really comfortable with this. I feel like the little bit of signs showing my age, that sort of, reflects also how I feel. 

Obviously, I feel 18, but you know what I mean? It's like, it's that mix. What about you? How did you feel about getting older?

Helen: I'm pretty relaxed about it. I think for me, I'm very active in terms of trying to do things that will help me age healthily.

In terms of eating healthily, exercising. 

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: In the last year I've taken up doing strength training. 

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: Because I've read so much about how good it is for your bones and your muscles.

But in terms of trying to look younger. No, just no interest at all because I am the age that I am. I've lived the life that I have

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: And I'm really comfortable with it. And it's really interesting from the people that I've interviewed, all of them are kind of at peace with where they're at in the ageing process, and therefore, going grey feels quite natural to them at that stage, rather than trying to fight to look younger.

Petra: Yeah. I wonder how easy or hard it would be to get guests on your podcast who hate going grey, who are not comfortable with their age showing, because it's a lot easier to come on this show when you're thinking, I'm grey. I'm loving it. 

Helen: I haven't done that deliberately, because I think there's quite a lot of stigma attached to going grey. And the norm certainly in the UK is to dye your hair. 

Petra: Oh, wow.

Helen: So, the whole sort of purpose of the podcast is to kind of try and break down the fear around it and sort of say, look, these women have all gone grey.

A lot of them were maybe worried about the reaction that they were going to get before they went grey, or how they'd find the process. And es, the process isn't great. You do feel uncomfortable with your appearance when you've got that stripe. 

But in general, they've had really positive reactions and they feel really relaxed about how their hair is now. They don't have root stress anymore.

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: That's kind of why I created the podcast in the first place. Just to say, you know, I'd like it not to be a big deal. I'd like people to choose one way or the other without having to give it a lot of thought.

Petra: Yeah, I think when you said that in the UK dyeing your hair and not showing your greys is sort of the norm. 

I definitely don't think that's the case in the Netherlands, and I don't think it's ever been. But people might be getting even more comfortable with going grey. But I don't think there's ever really been a sort of sense or norm that, you know, Ooh, no, here's my greys, now I have to cover them up forever.

Helen: I think the other thing in the UK was very much, it used to be the tradition that when you went grey, you had your haircut short.

Petra: Oh, true.

Helen: Whereas now it's certainly seeing a lot more people choosing to keep the hair long when they go grey,

Petra: Yeah.

Helen: which is good. I'm in that with them, obviously.

Petra: Oh yeah, absolutely. Like my hair has never been really long, long, you know, like sort of shoulder has been the longest. I could just put some of it with a clip on the back of my head. And like I said, I'm just experimenting to see. Also, because I like to change it from time to time. 

But yeah, it's so good you're doing this because I didn't realize there was such a big thing around it, you know. To then have lots of people speak up like, hey, it's actually pretty cool. And yeah, people didn't look at me like, ew, what's wrong with you? Would that really happen? Do people who stop dyeing their hair get negative reactions?

Helen: Certainly, some of my guests have experienced a degree of that. And I think there's a lot more fear that that's what you're going to get than actual. Yeah, it is quite strange. 

I grew my hair out in lockdown, but I had been thinking about it for a couple of years beforehand. And I had talked about doing it for a couple of years beforehand, and everyone that I spoke to was basically like, don't do it.

Petra: Oh wow. That is so weird to me. That is so alien. But then again, I didn't think about it either. I was just fed up with it. I thought, well, can't be stuffed with this any longer, so I'll stop dyeing it. Wow. That's quite eye opening. Didn't know that existed in the world.

Helen: I think probably in the UK and the US, there's a lot of it. I think, as I said, the Europeans generally seem to be more relaxed about it.

Petra: Yeah. Fascinating.

Helen: I'm going to ask you one more question. 

Petra: Yeah, sure.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice would you give them?

Petra: Well, I'd say go for it. 

It happened with my sister-in-law, and she talked about it and I was like, yeah, go for it. It's way less hassle. 

Even when we eat extremely healthy, and don't smoke and stay out of the sun, our skin also ages. And I find when your skin and your hair, when it sort of matches, you look way more natural, you know, than when you dye it.

But in the end to me it would depend on why someone wants to do it. Don't do it, you know, if someone loves colouring their hair go for it. But only if you want to. Look, I did it for fun for, hey, I want to be this colour. Hey, I want to be that colour.

And if you're doing it because of what other people might think, then I would ask them, what would bother you more? What people might say when you go natural or having to keep dyeing it when you probably no longer want to, otherwise you wouldn't consider stopping it. 

Helen: Cool. I think I'm going to wrap it up there. Thank you so much for joining me. It's been really interesting chatting to you and I'll wish you a good day.

Petra: Yeah, you too. And I'm looking forward to hearing other episodes coming up.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier. grey. Have a great week.