Happier Grey Podcast with Sara Jones

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Sara Jones. She's a mother of four and grandmother of two, and a business owner helping online retailers generate more sales using Google Shopping. Hello, Sara, how are you?

Sara: Hello Helen, I'm okay. How are things?

Helen: Things are a bit wet here today in the North East. I think you're in Wales, aren't you?

Sara: It's always wet in Wales. 

Helen: I was going to say, yes, worse on the west coast, than the east coast. 

So, I'm going to start by kind of taking you back to, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Sara: Not the very first grey hair. But I can remember when I first noticed, which I think was probably, in my mid-thirties. There is that white gene in my family, mother's brother, I've got a graduation picture of him downstairs, and he is white on his graduation picture.

Helen: Wow. 

Sara: Lots of the men go grey very, very young in mum's side of the family, so I was very aware, and I can remember I almost started with like a malin streak. I just had a little patch down the middle on one side that I was thinking, oh my gosh, that's white there, that's going grey.

So, I just changed my parting so that it didn't show. Probably mid-thirties, I think. Yeah.

Helen: And were you dyeing your hair before then?

Sara: Not consistently, no. I'm one of these people that's all on and off. Kind of wake up one day and fancy being a redhead.

Helen: Okay.

Sara: You know what I mean? I don't think I've ever had my hair dyed professionally. I've always just gone to boots and got myself a..

Helen: And experimented a bit. So, when you were a bit younger than when you found the grey hairs, you had you experimented?

Sara: Yes, I did henna when I was in my teens, you know, it was all the rage then wasn't it? And then would just every now and again think, oh yeah, I fancy being auburn or whatever. I would do that a couple of times and then I just couldn't be bothered to keep up with it so I'd let it grow out.

I think at the time that I noticed the grey hairs I wasn't dying it because I probably wouldn't have noticed them otherwise. 

Helen: Yeah. And how did you feel about those first grey hairs?

Sara:I think we all probably go, uh. From a vanity point of view. I've never had an issue with grey hair, but it's that realisation that, oh, I'm getting older. And that's what that signifies is I'm not young anymore if I've got grey hairs. So, I think for me, that was more of the, you know, I just wanted to stay in denial that I was actually getting older. You know what I mean? So yeah, it was just that little bit of, oh no, no, I don't want to go grey. I don't want to go grey.

Helen: So, did you start colouring your hair more consistently at that point or did you leave it?

Sara: No, I don't think I did. 

Well, I mean, I had young kids. My husband's work took him overseas, so we were kind of going overseas. And it was just like, there was too much else. I had four kids, and they were all very close together. So, there's only like five years between all four of them. 

So, I think, dyeing my hair was not a high priority for me at the time. I don't think I consciously coloured my hair more just because I'd seen the greys. I was just like, oh, if I change the parting to the other side, then that streak doesn't show anymore. So that's what I did, I camouflaged it a little bit.

Helen: Did you start dyeing it more as you got more grey hairs?

Sara: Yes, I was a very dark brunette, dark, dark. Yeah, like a dark brown. And I’ve always felt, when I see older ladies who have, who would have gone grey, that are still dyeing their hair the same dark colour, they were, when they were younger.

I always feel it never looks right because your skin tone changes as you get older and stuff doesn't it? So, I do remember consciously thinking I don't, want to cover up the grey, specifically. But want to go grey gracefully. I think I wasn't quite ready to let it show white, so I decided I would just do semi-permanent blonde.

My theory was, if I use semi-permanent blonde, it'll dye the white hair blonde, and the rest just, well it fades, doesn't it? Dark to white. And so that's what I did for quite a while. I just, used semi-permanent. And I basically went from brunette to blonde.

Helen: I think when we met, which was what, about four years ago, five years ago, both of us had bleach, blonde hair,

Sara: Yeah. Everyone used to say, your hair is a lovely colour. And I'd be like, mmm, yeah. 

Helen: And did you use to stress about the roots when you dyed it, when they started coming through, or were you not that bothered?

Sara: I wasn't that bothered, really.

Helen: Oh, lucky you. 

Sara: Wasn’t that bothered, cause you know I’d maybe dye it every three or four months. I never had that line, because I used semi-permanent dye the dye itself would just kind of fade. But there was never really a strong line for the regrowth.

 I'd just have maybe slightly darker roots than the rest of the hair and then do it again. 

Helen: I had a permanent colour, so it was a much harsher line.

Sara: Because I did it myself. I was always too scared to go permanent. I thought, well, if it's semi-permanent and I don't like it, it'll just like fade, won't it? So that was the idea.

Helen: I think that's quite a good approach. When did you decide that you were going to grow it out, and just go grey?

Sara: A couple of years ago, I think. And I can't remember why I decided that I was going to grow it out. Now that you've asked me that, I really don't know. 

It was a couple of years ago. I had long hair, so I've got long hair now, it's, way past shoulder length and it was about the same length and we all do it at some point. I've had enough of long hair. I'm going to have a haircut. 

So, I had it cut like right up, and I think it was then, if I recall, that I thought, now that I've had it cut, I may as well just let it grow. I still had the blonde, colouring in the, short hair and then as it grew. I just had it trimmed and then ended up growing it out. I suppose it didn't have a big impact because I didn't have this kind of grey slowly coming down the full length of the hair, because I chopped most of it off.

Helen: Yeah. Okay.

Sara: And I just thought I can’t be bothered to keep dyeing it all the time. Being a bit lazy. So, I thought if I just let it grow out then, you know, it’ll be fine. I won’t have to keep dyeing it anymore. So, it was easier.

Helen: How are you finding the condition of it now that you've grown it out? Is it better than it was or is it similar? 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the condition’s fine actually.  I’ve got a bit of a wave in it, and I have since learnt, I’ve always been envious of people with really shiny hair, my hair’s never been really shiny, and I know now it’s because I’ve got waves in it. So, wavy hair in never as shiny as other hair.

I do notice that it needs a lot more conditioner now than it used to, because the texture does change doesn't it. As it goes grey, that I'm finding anyway. So, I am putting on, yeah, loads of conditioner.

Helen: Which is actually quite different to me. My hair, when it was bleached blonde was very, very dry. And got a lot of split ends. Now that I'm not dyeing anymore, maybe it's cause I was using a permanent one and rather than the semi-permanent one, it was maybe a bit more aggressive, I just find it's much easier to look after now.

 I only wash it once a week now, when I was previously, I used to wash it every other day and I do put quite a strong conditioner on it the once a week, but that's all that I do with it. 

And I can grow it long, because before I couldn't really have grown it much below my shoulders just because it was getting so brittle at the ends.

Sara: Right.

Helen: Yeah, but now it's about the same length as yours to be fair.

Sara: I'm about to have it cut again. It's too long now. I only wash mine about once a week, probably. But then the longer, your hair is, the less you have to wash it, I find, anyway, isn't it? If it was shorter, I'd have to wash it a bit more often, I think.

Helen: Yeah, and style it more.

Sara: Yeah, in general, I'd say, I'm looking at it now, I haven't really got split ends or anything. So, it's, in good nick.

Helen: And how often do you have it cut now?

Sara: Not very often. I've had one trim since July 2023.

Helen: Wow. But it must be in pretty good condition if you can leave it that long and it's not got split ends.

Sara: Well, that's what I mean. I can just let it grow and it will just keep growing. It’s always been like that. We've all got hair that grows really fast in our family. 

I'm about ready to have a little cut, but I'm just going to go to shoulder length this time, I think. See how it looks.

Helen: Can I ask you a more general question then about ageing, how are you feeling about the ageing process? Are you at peace with where you're at with it, or are you fighting it?

Sara: Gosh.

I suppose in general, I'm okay with it. The time when I do have that kind of, ah, moment about realising how old I actually am, which is 57, is when I think, oh, there's so much I want to do. And I want to have done, and I haven't done. Why haven't I done it? And that's what makes me anxious, is that, oh, I want to do but I can't or I can't see it in my future. And then I kind of think oh then I'm running out of time to do all the things that I want to do.

I suppose the actual ageing, I mean it's not great fun is it when everything starts aching. And like sometimes you just have to think, oh whatever, just go with it. I think that's the bit I struggle with the most is that kind of thinking, well, how much longer have I got left to do the things I want to do? Make sense? But then my mum's 91, so who knows 

 Helen: Can I ask you whether you're doing anything to stay healthy as you age? You've got dogs, haven't you? So, I'm guessing you're out walking with them a lot. 

Sara: Yeah, I have two dogs, so we're out walking twice a day. 

I take a green supplement thing every morning. And I swear by this green powder stuff. I just chuck it in some water and shake it and drink it every morning. And as long as I'm taking that, I never get a cold or catch anything. I swear by it.

I do need to do more exercise, but I've got a bad knee at the moment, and so every time I try and do that, it just makes it even worse. Hopefully, that will get fixed in the next couple of months. And then, I can go doing the old, working out a bit more often. I'm very aware at our age we need to be doing the resistance stuff and the keeping everything strong. So that's something I want to get back to, but at the moment, not really able to do it as much as I want to.

Helen: If you're out with the dogs twice a day, you're getting your steps in.

Sara: I do usually get my 10,000 steps every day, I must admit, which is good. I do feel it when I don't, times when I'm not able to get out with them as much, I do notice it. It does make a massive difference. 

And just being in the outdoors as well. 

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: Daylight. Because obviously I work from home, so I get out of bed, I walk along the hall, sit down at my desk, and potentially I could spend a whole day with not stepping out into the daylight.

If I didn't have the dogs, sometimes I think I probably would stay in the house all day and not get outside.

Helen: I make that a really conscious thing, for me, it's kind of a mental health thing, as much as anything else. 

Sara: Yes.

Helen: If I get out in nature, I just feel better generally. So, I generally walk or run outside everyday unless I'm absolutely can't. But I do make it a priority. 

Sara: Yes. Yes. And, of course the good thing about dogs is even when it’s tipping down with rain, and you have to go because you can't not go. Whereas if I didn't have them, I'd go, oh I'll just wait a bit, maybe not today, because it's raining. But I have to go, so I have no choice, I just have to put on the wellies and the big coat and I still have to go for a walk. So, that's really good actually. Don't know whether I would do it if I didn't have them to force me into it.

Helen: Okay, I'm going to ask you another question about, your personal style, in terms of the things you wear and stuff like that. Do you think that's changed as you've gone grey, or just the same in terms of colours, and that kind of thing?

Sara: My biggest thing that's changed is shoes. I love wearing heels, but I just really struggle. I just can't wear heels anymore, because my feet hurt too much. And, of course, wearing a heel then when you've got things going on with your knees it makes everything really unstable, and it makes everything hurt even more. So that's probably the biggest influence I think, is the fact that I don't wear heels as much, so I'm wearing flat shoes, which means that you don't wear the kind of clothes that you would wear with heels. 

And working from home, don't have to dress up to work from home, do you? You can just put on a pair of stretchy trousers.  It's the effort when I do actually leave the house, to think, oh, what am I wearing to leave the house and trying to at least, be conscious of that and be more smart. 

And I make my own clothes. Well, I don't make all my own clothes, but I make clothes. So, I've been trying to think, right, okay, what can I make, that can fit in with the rest of my wardrobe, that I can you know, zhuzh it up a bit and something a bit different. 

Because I always used to wear stuff that was very colourful, very bright. It's got more and more drab over the years. So, I'm trying to go back to kind of the colours. And the issue then is the colours that looked good on me when I was in my 20s, don't necessarily look good on me now.

Helen: Yeah. Cause you were very dark.

Sara: So that's a bit of a challenge, is figuring out what colours I should be wearing now, versus what I knew looked good on me then.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: I wear a lot of navy blue and black. Not great. 

Helen: I live in blue. I just can't help myself. It's a bit sad really. I keep thinking I really ought to wear other colours and then, end up buying more blue.

Sara: I love pink. I've got a pink jumper and when I wear that I get lots of compliments. Oh my gosh, that colour looks lovely on you. So, I'm like, right, okay, need to wear. It's not a pale pink, it's kind of a rich pink. That's something that I have noticed with the hair colour changing, I'm kind of having to rethink what colours I wear.

Helen: Yeah. My biggest problem with clothes, cause I worked in an office for years, so I was quite smart and I wore a lot of dresses, and I'm still drawn to them when I go shopping, but then I have to like, have a word with myself. It's just like, you're never going to wear that. 

It might be lovely, but if you're only ever going to wear it like three or four times, you're just better off sticking with jeans because you'll wear them every other day. 

Sara: I mean, why shouldn't I get dressed in what I would wear if I went to an office and actually walk along my landing dressed, like, why shouldn't I? I don't, and I probably won't, but..

Helen: I think it's because you'd have to change to walk the dogs.

Sara: well, I always walking trousers to walk the dogs, because then when they get wet, they don't hold the wet.

Helen: Yeah. 

Sara: I always change, so I could quite easily have really nice smart work clothes, and come to work. But I don't. I just put on the comfy stuff and do that. So I don't know why we don't do that.

Helen: I don't really want to wear three outfits a day. If I'm going to go for a run and, uh,

Sara: Yeah. Oh, that means I'm going to have to wash them. If I wear that one, I can just put it on without ironing it. Too lazy.

Helen: Just relaxed in what you're wearing, which is a good thing. Rather than feeling stressed about it all the time. 

Sara: I used to work in a call centre, many years ago. We had to wear, suits to work. We were all like, this is ridiculous, nobody can see us. 

But there is that argument, isn't there, that psychologically the smarter you are dressed, it actually changes your demeanour and it changes the way you behave. In  a call centre, even if somebody can't see you, if you're sitting in slouchy trousers, you're going to behave in a more slouchy way, was the argument.

Helen: Okay.

Sara: If you're in a suit and you're smart you're going to be more professional. So, I suppose there is that argument actually, that maybe if I did kind of dress up and look all efficient and whatever, then maybe that would affect the working day, I don't know. Maybe we'll have to have tests one week.

Helen: I think the other thing is the world's moved on a little bit, as well from those days, because there aren't many places now that would mandate wearing a suit.

Sara: No, well, could they? I don't know even if they could in these days, but yeah, it's true.

Helen: I can remember one of my first jobs, I was not long out of university and I was still quite studenty in my style and I basically got told, if you want to pay rise, you've got to dress more smartly. It didn't revolve around the quality of the work at all. It was just, you just need to look the part.

Sara: Yeah, wow. 

Helen: I'm going to ask you one last question, which is if someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice would you have for them?

Sara: Get a really good purple shampoo.

Helen: Okay.

Sara: That would be it. Well do it, do it. 'cause I don't know why anybody is worried about going grey. 'cause it doesn't make you look old anymore, I don't think. It's fashionable to be grey. Not like it was 30 years ago. You don't look old just because you're grey.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: But if you don't go grey gracefully, it can actually make you look older. That's just my opinion. 

But yeah, I would say get really good purple shampoo and conditioner because it, then it just lifts your colour, and it does make a difference. It just lifts it a little bit and stops it looking quite so yellowy, because it can look yellowy, can't it, when you go grey, sometimes. So, that would be my advice.

Helen: Okay. And any particular brand?

Sara: Well, I use Moroccan oil, which I love. Because I try to avoid, the sulphates and stuff. So, that's one, that doesn't have all the sulphates, Yeah, I love Moroccan oil. I buy the big litre bottles and it lasts me ages, because I only wash my hair about once a week. It's not cheap, but it lasts ages.

When I first started using it, people did comment how nice the colour of my hair was. Yeah, that's what I would say.

Helen: Okay. Well, I'm going to leave it there. I want to say thank you very much for joining me. It's been lovely chatting to you and have a good day.

Sara: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.