Happier Grey Podcast with Jen Moon

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today's guest is Jen Moon. She's a nutritionist, chef, and author of For the Brave. Jen is in her late 50s and is moving into yet another self, following a diagnosis of ADHD, which has explained a lot. Hello, Jen. How are you?

Jen: I'm great. I'm really happy to be chatting to you.

Helen: I'm actually going to start by asking you a little bit about your hair when you were younger. What colour was your hair originally?

Jen: Dirty mouse.

Helen: Was it that colour when you were a child or were you blonde when you were a child and then it went darker?

Jen: I was beautifully blonde, much to my mother's delight. Because she was married before she married my father. And she had two very dark-haired sons. And then I was born with this wonderful white blonde hair. And she was so pleased. And then around about seven it started to turn to dirty mouse.

And that was it.

Helen: I had white blonde hair when I was a child as well.

Jen: Yeah.

Helen: It lasted a little bit longer than yours as blonde anyway. Can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Jen: Yes. I'd come over from South Africa, I was working in London and I was in the bathroom on a house share. Clear, I remembered as if it was yesterday. I looked in the mirror and there to my heart, because white hair is a different texture, doesn't it?

Helen: Certainly, when it starts coming through, yes.

Jen: Yeah. And there was this sort of piece of hair that was sticking up and it was coarser. And I looked, oh my goodness, 24 years old, I got my first grey hair that was, clearly grey. 

Helen: Uh huh. And how did you feel about it?

Jen: It’s hard to pinpoint isn’t it, cause you kind of think back and with hindsight it’s a different story. At the time I was more amused, and frankly appalled that it was happening. But also, kind of excited as well, because you know how it is as you're growing up, you get these milestones in your life, and now there was a milestone that, yes, I was also growing up still. Then actually hang on a sec this is growing up in the wrong direction.

Helen: Did you do anything with your first grey hairs? Did you start dyeing your hair?

Jen: No, I didn't. 

I've always been really poor with the dyeing of the hair because I had this horrible tendency to think, oh, this would be a great idea, and then not follow it up. Then my hair will kind of get the half grown out stage for, what seems like months at a time.

So, I tried not to dye it, because it was always such a disaster afterwards.

Helen: Had you dyed it before, just to experiment with different colours and things?

Jen: Yes, and then, you know, it's a tricky thing, isn't it, dyeing your hair, because I have a kind of leaning towards let's look after the environment. And every time you're using it, one, there's all the packaging and the plastics and all of that, and then not to mention all the chemicals that are going down the drain, and you think, oh my gosh, it's just me, what's one person going to do to the planet? But then if we all think like that. 

There was this part of me that really wanted to have beautiful hair and look a certain way and have a certain, colour or approach that I thought having different hair colour might provide.

 Weighed up against this, a sort of sense of responsibility to be careful.

 Yeah, it was really being pulled in two different directions, if that makes sense.

Helen: I kind of understand that. Did you then leave your hair from when you were 24? Have you dyed it since then or have you just left it?

Jen: I have dyed a couple of times. Most recent time was, my daughter now lives in Australia, and I went to go and see her, and I was looking absolutely frightful beforehand. It was winter time in the UK and I was really just feeling grey inside, grey skin, grey hair, grey, grey. I was like, you know what, to, I'm going to dye my hair.

My eldest daughter, she's ginger in the most beautiful ginger. And, the dye went ginger in the most un-beautiful ginger you could imagine.

And my daughter, when I got to Australia, she was trying so hard not to laugh. And I basically had this ginger toupee for about six weeks of my adventure over there. It was a disaster. And there was a lot of laughter. One can safely say it was a fail.

Helen: So, was that semi-permanent colour? 

Jen: No, it was supposed to be a tint. And the irony is, my Mum died when I was 30, she had cancer, and it was quite a slow, drawn-out process. And about, four weeks before she died, she was sitting in the chair, and she said to me, I've been trying to think of motherly, bits of wisdom that I would like to pass on to you.

And she said, I can only think of two things. I said, Oh yes. She said, if you wash your upholstery, put it back onto the furniture while it's still slightly damp, or otherwise it shrinks and never fits back on. I thought, okay. 

Then she said, the other thing is dye your hair. And then, life's ironic kind of way that it behaves. My grey hair, now that it's really started to come out properly, is a very, very vibrant white, in the bits where it is white. And not for love nor money will it take any colouring.

It doesn’t matter what I do to it. Whether I go to the hairdresser or do it through a bottle on my own, No. Just it either goes this dreadful, dreadful ginger. You can't fix it, because you can't dye it out, because my hair no longer takes the dye, or it just returns resolutely to white. It's kind of a relief, because it plays into my let's be kind to the environment, but also let's be kind to my pocket as well, let's be honest.

Helen: Are you now feeling at peace with your grey hair do you think?

Jen: In some respects, yes, there's the element that, I don't know if you noticed it, but other women tell you to dye your hair. And it really surprises me because I've got a very, very dear friend and she's like, I tell you what, I'll treat you to go and have your hair done. I'm like, what? What are you saying? I had to explain to her that my hair doesn't take it and then she looked very disappointed. So clearly, she thinks I'm a bit lacking in a few areas with my beauty regime. But, yeah, I'm not gonna go there again.

Helen: That is really interesting. I'm assuming that she dyes her hair.

Jen: She definitely does. It works beautifully for her, and it looks very natural. I've also seen, you know, some friends that they dye their hair the colour of their hair that they had in their sort of 30s and 40s, 20s even. But their skin is not right for it.

Helen: Yeah. 

Jen: And it just looks like you’re wearing a bad wig doesn’t it? I think that’s awful. So yeah, I'm just embracing the white, and that's how it's going to be.

Helen: So you think you're going to leave it now, not dye again?

Jen: That's the plan. I have to be cautious, because the minute I say never, who knows?

Helen: You’re daring yourself.

Jen: It's every now and then, you know you can get that, stuff where you put, blue kind of streaks into your hair. I want to say a paste, but that's probably not the right word, but you put it on there and it leaves a sort of semi-permanent streak for about six washes.

There's a part of me that wants to be really out there and wild, and have a blue streak, but then I know if I do it to myself it's going to be appalling and it's not going to work and I won't have a streak, I'll have a blotch. 

Helen: You've said that your hair is very white, in the bits that it has gone white. Are you using a special shampoo to maintain the whiteness or not?

Jen: I do use a special shampoo, largely because it was getting a bit thin. And I did some research, and there's so many people saying this shampoo's the best thing ever. And I bought a Christmas present to myself about 18 months ago.

It was very expensive, but it really has stopped the hair loss. But it's more for the benefit of my hair, rather than the actual colouring or anything like that, so.

Helen: Okay. And what is it?

Jen: It's called Champo. I'm not entirely sure how you pronounce it. I don't know if it's ayurvedic, but you spell it C H A M P O. And it's where the word shampoo is derived from. 

I think it's about 18 pounds a bottle, but you only need a little bit and my hair's never felt healthier, so that's a bonus. And it doesn't have a lot of the kind of heavy chemicals that ordinary off the shelf stuff in the supermarket have.

Helen: Do you find that your hair's a lot drier since it's gone grey?

Jen: I wouldn't have said so, no. No, not really. It stands up a lot more, which isn't always appreciated. It seems to have a bit more body, but not necessarily drier, but maybe, maybe I'm still kind of waiting to notice that. I'm not terribly observant about it. 

I try to put it into background noise. There's nothing you can do about it, just, hope for the best.

Helen: When you were in the grow out phase, is there anything in particular that you did or did you just leave it? Did you have it cut short? Did you tie back?

Jen: The grow out phase of the ginger bit was torture. I must be honest, it was torture. My daughter, who wasn't helpful with collapsing her giggles, would come back with all sorts of purple shampoos to try and help me get rid of the ginger. And there was nothing to do really because my hair was already quite short. It probably took about four months to grow out, and there was nothing I could put on it. Even the purple shampoo, maybe took down a little bit of the brassiness, but yeah, it was safe to say a fail. 

Helen: A lesson learnt.

Jen: Sometimes we need brutal lessons, don't we?

Helen: I'm going to ask you a little bit about your style and clothing. So, do you think you're the colours, and your styles that you wear have changed since your hair has gone grey?

Jen: No. No. And they probably should have, if I'm honest. I'm not really good with fashion, I tend to be a bit blind to it and, I wear what I like. Probably safe to say I wouldn't necessarily make it into a fashion magazine.

But, I did my colours on, Chat GPT recently, have you ever done that?

Helen: Not on Chat GPT, but I have had them done. 

Jen: And how was your experience of it?

Helen: I did mine in my twenties. I used to work for a hand knitting company and we were considering doing different ranges for the different seasons that these people put together. But we were kind of like, is there any consistency between different types, as to what they tell you you're going to be, which is why we were doing it.

Jen: Yeah.

Helen: I did find it quite interesting. 

It probably told me things that I knew already, like I, I've never been able to wear black, because the contrast is too great for my colouring. Same bright white. And I've never been able to wear things like olive greens and chateaux, and orange and yellow, and all of those colours because they just all wash me out totally. 

And they both said the same with that, but they did say slightly different things other than that. But, in terms of the palette, for me, it's all blues, pinks, dark reds, jadey greens, those sorts of things. And they do suit me to be fair.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah.

Helen: What did you think?

Jen: Yeah, the colours that you need to wear as you get older change. But I really didn't want to fall into the greys and beiges and things that, my mother used to drift towards. And I was like, no, I don't want to do that.

So, somebody said you can take a photo of yourself, take the dropper on some software to figure out the colour of your cheeks, the colour of your eyes, the colour of your hair, put it into Chat GPT, and it'll tell you the palette you are. So, I was totally excited about that, and had a lot of fun doing it and spent way too much doing it, too much time.

And, I had this lovely palette of all sorts of colours, and then showed it to my partner and my sister and both of them said, say, what? This doesn’t look like you at all. No. 

So that was that. That fell by the wayside. It was a bit of a disaster. So, I haven't done anything about it. I've sort of been stunned into another sort of state of inertia. 

Some people are really, really clever, they can put on an article of clothing and think, gosh, this colour looks nice on me. The way my brain works, I can't see whether it's a good colour on me. It's, do I like the colour? And, so I rely on other to tell me, and very often they don’t. They just let me get on with it.

So yeah. Yeah. Fashion and me are not the best of friends.

Helen: Yeah. I'm just basically obsessed by blue. I keep trying to persuade myself to do something different, but then it.

Jen: Yeah. And you, you open your wardrobe and its shades of blue, fifty shades of blue.

Helen: Pretty much, yes. For the record, I'm in lilac today, so that's slightly not blue.

Jen: I'm looking down at myself, I've got a blue scarf, blue jumper and blue shirt, so yeah. Yeah. 

Helen: You’ve got the blue thing as well. Okay, so I’m going to ask you something different now, really around aging, your attitude to aging and whether you're doing anything to age healthily?

Jen: That’s a tricky one because, not so much tricky, as interesting. Because I’m a nutritionist and I’m, kind of, pretty much aware that we need to be very careful what we put into our body. And I have a lot of clients who have issues with blood sugar.

Helen: Yep.

Jen: And we know that, with high blood sugar, it's best to avoid things like breads and potatoes, chips, rice, pasta.

But many of those friends are also kind of in their late 50s, 60s, and a lot of them have been widowed, which is very challenging. 

So, they get their social fix by going out to meet friends for coffees. Which is invariably in a local cafe. And can you ever find anything that doesn't come with cake or bread.

And then when you're at home, it's so easy just to have a piece of toast or, some pasta, it's quick and easy. And that doesn't do anything for your waistline, doesn't do anything for your blood sugars when you've got an issue with that. So yeah, this has become more and more something I'm very aware of.

It's something you need to be careful with. You want to pay attention to what you're putting into your body. But also, what you're doing physically. Staying fit, I’ve got a personal trainer, he’s relatively new to my life. He’s a lovely guy. 

One of the tricky things is that I'm quite strong, but of the however many muscles we've got in our body, about five of them do the work. And the remaining x number of them, are on holiday, or have quit. And that's a problem because what's happening is the strong muscles are doing more and more of the work. And the other's all packing in slowly. But that means the strong muscles are getting injured because they're doing too much.

 So, it's been a pretty big revelation, that I have to put energy and thought into keeping these muscles, and joints working properly, which I hadn't anticipated.

So, that's something that when it comes to ageing, I'm working really hard at. It's not appearance related, but it is physical based. Yeah, I want to be able to do things and continue to do things without struggling with pain, without having to rely on others.

So yeah, that's been a big thing for avoiding, if you could call it that, ageing.

Helen: Are you doing strength training now?

Jen: Definitely, yeah, I do strength training, I do cardio,

Helen: How are you finding it? Is it making you feel better in yourself?

Jen: A lot better and again, with my nutrition practice, I tell my clients oh, you must do strength training and it's really good and stuff. It's really good for your mental health. 

You don't think yourself you need it, until you start doing and you realize, oh wow, I do feel much happier in myself. And I hadn't been aware of being unhappy in myself if that makes sense. I feel more positive.

I certainly feel stronger. My body has more energy. Of course, at the end of a long day, I'm still exhausted and ready to collapse into bed at half past eight. But I do have more to give, than I had. And I'm enjoying the way it makes me feel, feeling my muscles become more and more toned and stronger.

Helen: A nutrition related question then. I started doing strength training earlier this year. I've run and done yoga for a long time, but I added strength training. A lot of discussion around protein, and whether you should have protein first or after. Any views on that?

Jen: So, when you say protein before exercise, you mean?

Helen: Yeah, or after you exercise or both.

Jen: I tend to do protein very much after because it helps you heal, and helps muscles repair and build. 

But I do it beforehand as well, I wouldn't have an egg on a piece of toast, I would have an egg with some avocado or something. So, I'm getting the protein, but I'm also getting the carbs, but they're not the simple carbs. 

So, yeah, I say I've got a foot in both cans, before and after, for protein. 

Helen: Which is kind of what I do, because I always for breakfast have a handful of mixed nuts, Greek yogurt and fruit. 

But I've started on my strength training days, having an omelette with the salad that I have for lunch, because I'm like, oh, I need to find protein somewhere. And it has made quite a lot of difference, in terms of the amount of muscle that you put on.

Jen: As a nutritionist, I'd be giving you a gold star.

Helen: Well, you probably won't because I also eat cake.

Jen: Okay, downgraded to bronze.

Helen: It is a black currant and apple cake, so I figure that's kind of healthy.

Jen: No, that's fine.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what would you say to them? What advice would you have for them?

Jen: Absolutely do it. Do it. Without question, do it. Because if you're thinking about it, you're really open to the fact that it's happening. But I think we should embrace it. I genuinely do. The mental energy that goes into questioning your appearance and, what I should be doing. And keeping your hair looking in good condition and all of that. 

It just gets elevated, doesn't it? If you are then adding the question, should I be dyeing it on top of that? 

And I don't know many people who are perhaps in their sort of mid 60s on, that have had very effective colouring, in relation to their skin. It always looks to me that it's been dyed and I personally don't find that works.

I think you should just embrace it.

Helen: Okay, I am with you there. I do think that older you get, particularly if you dye a very dark colour, the less, it helps you really, it makes you look less healthy, rather than more healthy.

Jen: Absolutely, yeah.

Helen: And it also takes the focus away from what we should be doing, if you want to age well, which is exercising, eating nutritious food and, looking after your mental health.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. You're so right. 

Helen: I'm going to say thanks a lot for joining me. It's been really interesting chatting to you, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Jen: Excellent. Thank you. It's been a lot of fun. Nice to chat to you too.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.