Happier Grey Podcast with Rebecca Dinsdale

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Dr. Rebecca Dinsdale, the life joy coach and author of five books. She helps people transform their burnout into balance and blessings to be braver, wiser, and more joyous. Good morning, Rebecca. How are you?

Rebecca: Oh, delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

Helen: I'm going to start by asking you when you found your first grey hair. Can you remember?

Rebecca: Well, I can. I was very young. I remember having a tuft of grey hair at the front when I was about 25. I'd been very ill so I'd lost a bit of hair at the front because I'd had an enormously high temperature. So, I was just glad to have some hair. I wasn't really bothered about the colour, you know. There's the harsh realities of life. Thank God you've got some. 

So, I noticed it, but it was my peers that commented. And some of their mothers with outrage, which was, an interesting response.

Helen: So what colour was your hair before?

Rebecca: Well, it's a funny old thing that's come out of my head because it's never really been one thing. I've been sort of light blonde. I've been dark blonde. It's never been dyed. It's just what's come. And it was sort of a light mousey English-y kind of colour. It wasn't anything impressive, but there was this sort of shock of white, which made me look like a badger.

Helen: And how did you feel about it?

Rebecca: Well, I'll be honest. I think, the realities of my upbringing was that I had had very strong, vibrant women who were all white haired and grey haired. So, I just associated age with their magnificence. 

It didn't cross my mind until one of my friend's mothers walked up to me and said, what are we going to do with this? And got hold of my head. And I remember thinking, if you pull that anymore, it'll come out. So, it was an odd thing. 

I had realized that what matters is people's character, and their actions, and their values. And that to be judging on external appearances, I think was a bit sad, but it was coming at me quite significantly.

And I remember my dad said to me that he'd been grey 30. My mum had told me, who was one of the wisest women ever, you can walk, talk, see and hear. Nothing else matters. We love you. And she said that when I was a very little girl and it stayed with me. So, nothing else matters is a very sanguine point of view.

But then, there was a peer pressure on me that was very significant. So, that was interesting.

Helen: Okay. And were you ever tempted to dye it?

Rebecca: Well, there's another funny end of this, is that I've had these wonderful examples of these vibrant women. And, I had been very sick for a very long time with severe ME.

I was also very allergic to lots of things. I didn't dare touch any hair dye because I'd had such enormous allergic reactions. I had half a glass of wine in 1993, and I ended up in A&E. So, I'd had such vitriolic reactions. 

But the bit that was funny was I nearly caved to that level of pressure. But my dad had left, do you remember the C fax? Do you remember the news that used to come up? Well, he always watched the CFAX and there was always a case of somebody who'd ended up in a coma because they'd had an allergic reaction to hair dye.

It was really surreal. 

And he would leave this on the CFAX and say, you know, you look fine. Don't be bothered about this. What matters is how well you are. Do not cave. To be fair, I didn't do it because I didn't want to worry him. 

And I didn't have energy. This is the really profound thing. I was so sick for so long, I did not have energy to spare to sit or clart on, or pay a lot of money for somebody to solve something, that I didn't think was a problem.

If other people wanted to do it, lovely. But I couldn't sit up in a chair for two hours and have somebody do it. That's how ill I was, and that's how small it seemed to me, but it seemed big to a lot of other people.

Helen: Okay, so did you find people of your generation then starting to dye their hair when they went grey? Your friends?

Rebecca: Well, they were dyeing it before they were grey. That was interesting as well, you know. 

I had spoken in public probably seven or eight hundred times by the time I was forty. And, what you look like matters in front of an audience. And I remember people would comment on my dress or where was this from, and I had to become much more done up to fit in.

But I'd been in a university environment for decades, where what you look like did not matter. It was who you were, what you offered, how hard you worked, what you said, what you contributed. It was a very odd juxtaposition because I still had this view that, you know, my grandmother who'd been to China and run a mission hospital in the 1930s with her grey hair when she was 30 odd, you know, this was not something I could fit into.

And my health, undermined it all. But really what I wanted to be was absolutely just who I am. And see, who I am and what comes out. I had also noticed, and the bit that was really funny was, my mum wasn't grey at all. My mum had this beautiful red brown hair, not a grey hair, and I obviously got my dad's genes, but you see, my lovely mum got early onset dementia in her fifties.

And she never got old enough to have grey hair. So, there was this profound tension amongst my peers. Like, Becca, you need to do something about this. My less friendly peers, shall we say. And then my mum never got there. It was a very contrasting set of circumstances it seemed to be very low on the priority list.

Helen: Other things around your appearance, were they kind of the same in terms of like makeup and the way you dress and that kind of thing? Were you very conscious of them or not so much? 

Rebecca: Well, I’d been a tomboy. I’d been very active as a child, so I need Velcro trainers because I didn’t have time to do my laces up. I had some much to do. And so much energy which was very much contrasted with my later life. 

So, to me, appearance was about being smart, and clean, and professional, and being authentic. But also, I was just a wriggly young girl who didn’t think about those things. 

I wasn't brought up in a world where you were very done up, but then suddenly I'm in a world where you are quite done up. And, when I got married, I went to the hairdressers and I had this enormous long streak of grey hair at the front, which probably other people would pay money to have, and she just looked it up again with just horror.

The irony is my husband is bald, and was bald at 30. And he just said to me, there's a great freedom. You are what you are. There's a great liberation in just accepting that. 

So, there was that odd contrast. And the other part that was quite funny was I was speckly grey for a long time, when the long stripe went. And, somebody walked up to me after I'd just done a big, presentation and said to me, you must spend hours getting all those different colours in your hair.

And they were full of admiration that I had all this weird head amalgam of colour. I just smiled because I didn't want to disillusion her. I didn't know what to say. And I said, well it's just mine, and she didn't believe me. 

I haven't had a big moment where I thought I'm not going to dye my hair anymore. I haven't had a big moment where I thought, oh I'm going to be, grey and glorious. It was just circumstantial.

I was glad I had some hair. I think that's just the reality of it. You know, be glad you've got some and be glad you're up and going. And my mum would always say to me, lots of people would swap, you know, you've got good vision, you can move, you can function. That's what matters. 

It was a peer pressure thing. But it was also a, suddenly when I was bold enough to say you look lovely as you are, to other people. I wrote a blog, and suddenly three or four people read that blog, and they are now grey. And even more themselves, and even better, and more at peace and suddenly liberated from it.

And I remember somebody said to me about, not going to the hairdresser anymore for it. And I remember saying, well, just give them a bigger tip or still get your hair cut, but compensate somewhere or explain. But you know, there are ways around all sorts of things, but I love the fact that you would just be yourself, but be more yourself.

Helen: Obviously I don't know when you got that first streak in terms of the decade, but are you finding the peer pressure is very different now to what it was then, and people are more accepting? 

Rebecca: I think so. I think the reality is we have to start with acceptance with ourselves. And what I spend all of my time doing with my 1-2-1 coaching and counselling clients is helping people to see their own goodness. 

As soon as people start to believe they’re capable, and confident, and luminous. They suddenly shed all sorts of insecurities. And it's really wonderful to see people blossom into themselves. 

You can't give other people confidence, unless you have some confidence in who you are, how you behave, the choices you make. And one of those choices is what you look like, and to try and make the best of what you've been given, but also to not be obsessed or seduced by materialism.

I think if you could just be more you, actually that, as the Marianne Williamson poem says, liberates others to shine. I think there's something, about it starting within first. And then if people say things, or they don't say things, well, that's up to them. But, you know, it's my hair. Thank you very much. I'm glad I've got some. I'll try and look as smart as I can.

Helen: And do you get compliments on it now?

Rebecca: Well, that's the ironic thing, as soon as I thought, well, I just can't do anything about this, lots of people did mention it. 

And I also had long hair because, you know, COVID and we couldn't go to the hairdressers. And suddenly, there was an odd kind of, empowerment to it, but I had what I had.

And people referred to me as the tall blonde girl. And that was so funny because I was 50, you know, blonde. But it looks light, you see, in certain, lights. So, the irony was that I was the tall girl with the blonde hair, and actually does any of that because they said I was cheerful.

I'd rather be cheerful than any of those external descriptions. I remember he said, the tall girl, one of my friends said, did you call today? And I said, I did. She said, oh, my dad said that about you. And I thought, well, I'm glad they thought I gave them a cheery wave. That's what matters.

Helen: In terms of looking after your hair, obviously it's fairly pale, and fairly grey, all over. Do you use a special shampoo on it?

Rebecca: I've had to be very careful about what I put into me and onto me. I've also tried to reduce my plastic consumption very considerably. So, I have bars of soap now, from an eco-shop, which I really love. Nothing really very fancy, but this bar of soap that you lather up, and then I feel pleased I'm not putting more plastic into the world, and it seems to be alright.

Somebody gave me some special fancy stuff, I'm not sure if I should say the name. That would make it look even better. And I used it because it was kindly given. But, really, having had a bald husband, he just says, don't bother about any of this stuff. 

And all the poor young men who were worried about their hair going, he just says, I want to tell them all, it's wonderful to feel the rain on your head and run through it.

So, I always think about that. I always think, well, I've got some and I'm glad I've got it.

Helen: A lot of people have mentioned how it's one less stress when you're not worrying about the roots. And also, for a lot of people who are growing out, it is a journey because you have to reach that point where you have the self-confidence to think, yeah, I can do this and I can own being who I am. And part of that is having grey hair.

Rebecca: And women with grey hair are rarer than, men with grey hair. I'm sure other people will have mentioned this, but I also think there's a level of luxury problems here. 

When you've got enough to eat, and a good job, and happy life, and health, and hobbies, and work, and people, they are great blessings that a lot of people take for granted.

If you can get up and dressed and washed and fed every morning, then your roots are a much less of a problem. But you see the problem is we all live in a land of more of consumption. 

I persuaded my neighbour to go for it, because she was root bound as it were all the time. And spending a lot of money.

And I said to her, but I see more of you now than I've ever seen because I look at your eyes. I look at your skin. Your complexion is so lovely that your hair colour is so secondary to the light that's shining out of you. 

I know the business of making a decision to either jump for it, or not jump for it, or do it a partial stage, or how to do it.

But there's something really magnificent about saying I'm 40, I'm 50, I'm 60, I'm 70. I really am who I am, and I can't be 20 anymore. And being 20 has its challenges. But, you know, there's so many people who didn't get to 70. Who didn't get to worry about those things, that I try always to think this is a privilege.

How can I manage it? It's a privilege with challenges, but it's still a privilege.

Helen: What are you doing to ensure that you age as healthily as possible? 

Rebecca: Oh my gosh, I could talk about this forever, as I'm sure you could. I've had so much illness chase me, and had so much restriction because of it. And I deal with a lot of people with different forms of burnout, you know, autistic burnout, exhaustive conditions, treatment burnouts, life burnouts, all of those things.

And I value health and unity in my relationships more than anything else. I'm always trying to be well. And do all that I can now, to make the future years, if I have them God willing, as well as I can. 

So, I think it starts with sleep. I think it starts with hydration. I bet you think this too. I am madly against sugary drinks. I can't drink alcohol. I don't have any caffeine. My, nutritional intake is as good as I can get it. 

My movement is as much as I can do. I do my hip exercises and I stand on one leg. And I'm trying to maximise all that I've had, because I lost so much of it, really essentially for two decades. I had between 12 and 40 weeks a year housebound bed or hospital for 20 years. 

When you've had that level of restriction, I understand burnout at such a profound level, that your health is the foundation for everything.

And ironically, we think about health often as physical health. But my mum, had early onset dementia. I'm patron of a mental health charity in Sunderland, Headlight. They are glorious. And, I see what mental wellbeing, physical wellbeing, spiritual wellbeing, and contributing in a creative community and trying to be all that you can be. Fulfil all of your potential. 

And actually just looking like you look. As smart as you can be if you want to. Done up as you want to be. As undone as you want to be. I want to see who you are, not just the packaging on the outside.

Helen: A lot of the media focuses on the aesthetics of ageing, rather than on the, how do I stay healthy? I do think there's more discussion around it now. The number of people I spoke to has said, I've started doing weight training and you wouldn't have heard that five years ago, other than from the girls in their twenties who are the gym bunnies.

But I do think there quite a shift in that now, which is good.

Rebecca: I think we have to do, what we can do as much as we can, and just because we can't run marathons sometimes, or we can't do triathlons, you know, that's what I would be doing. I'd be trying to go fell running with my husband if I were fully fit and well, but the fact is, I have still restrictions, although I'm so grateful for the improvements that I've had, but I've tried and tested just about everything to get well.

I mean, there's not a thing I haven't done. Not a crazy thing either, but all the sensible stuff's helped, but I've also had a ton of external treatment. But the reality is, if you can look after what you've got, maintain it. You also prevent a lot of unnecessary trouble. You can prevent as much as you can type two diabetes.

You can prevent osteoporosis. You can try and prevent falls. You can try and prevent difficulties that don't need to happen. When you've lost as much health as I've lost, and seen as much suffering as I've seen, you just want to hold people by the lapels and say, please look after yourself because I don't want you to suffer or struggle.

 I won't even mention smoking, but I'm frightened of booze. I'm frightened of smoking. I'm frightened of vapes. If you can move and eat and sleep and do a good day, I think that's an investment. But also, if you can fill your soul, in the ways that fill your soul. And then pass those lessons on and be joyous and glorious and giving, I think you've lived well.

Helen: Cool. I share your thoughts on smoking. My dad died of oesophageal cancer. 

Not a good thing. 

Rebecca: And I think life is so precious, so precious. I've written books, I've done lots of talks to motivate people, I spend almost all of my time now doing one to one coaching and counselling, but for many years I, worked as a Christian celebrant, so I took funeral services as part of my working life.

 I've done nearly a thousand funeral services now. What funerals teach you is that life, and love, and courage, and joy is really what matters to everybody. Everybody wants to be valued, connected, and to feel that their contribution is valuable in this world. 

The questions I keep seeing in my work, however that comes out is. Have I lived well? Have I loved well? Have I had good thoughts? Have I had good words? And have I acted well? And once you put all that together, grey hair is a kind of part of it that's almost counter cultural. It's almost like, I'm not gonna be anything other than just my joyous self.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey. What would you say to them? Because obviously you've mentioned that a few people in your circle have taken that journey. 

Rebecca: I would say, what a brilliant decision. Well done. Joyous. Keep going. And you know, there'll be an in between bit that's uncomfortable, and you might want to run and revert. But most people who succeed in this world are the people who are comfortable with the discomfort. It's unfamiliar, you're not fitting in, you're in a transition.

But at the other sides of transition is deeper and greater joy, more security, and a kind of liberation that you don't really realize is possible. And also, you then give other people permission. You've kind of held the baton, and then you can pass it on to somebody else who's less secure. 

And if you want to keep doing it, keep dyeing your hair. I'm not making any judgements. But I'm also wanting to say, just be more you.

Helen: I'm actually not against people dyeing their hair. It's part of the mental health equation for everybody where they have to look at, do I feel better for it or do I feel worse for it? And if they feel better for it, they should just keep doing it.

Rebecca: Oh yes. I've got two or three clients who teach me wonderful, more modern phrases, and one of them said something to me the other day. She said, you do you. And I thought, that's just lovely. 

You wear the shoes that are wise for you. You might be a high heeled shoe person, you might be a welly person, you might be a trainer person, you might be all of those things all together.

But I think it's about what gives you peace, your choices that are wise, but if you're wanting to, come on, it's joyous, it's freeing.

Helen: That's a phrase I've heard many, many times, to be fair. When people complete the journey and it's just like, I can't believe how free I feel from not having to go and get my hair coloured, and not spend all that money, and all that time.

Rebecca: You know, money is energy. And I spend a huge amount of time managing energy with clients. And energy, calories, money, choices, time, all of those hours sitting doing something, could be spent doing something at the seaside with your loved ones. Something creative. 

You free yourself in many ways that is multi layered, but also it gives you permission. I think sometimes we just need to give ourselves permission to try these things.

Helen: Agreed.

Rebecca: I often say to clients, go gently, definitely try. Let's make a wise plan, but you can try a bit, see how it goes. If it's not good, go back. Let's just, reverse the car or the decision very, very slowly.

And then suddenly you're pivoted to where's the wisest direction for you.

Helen: Cool. Okay, well, I think I'm going to call it a day there and say, thank you so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest.

Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.