Happier Grey Podcast with Emma Taggart

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Emma Taggart, she's a career and leadership coach for ambitious introverts who want to progress at work without having to become someone they're not. She lives a feminist life in London with her partner and her cat. Good morning, Emma, how are you?

Emma: I'm very well. Thank you, Helen. How are you?

Helen: I'm not bad given it's my first day back after the holidays.

Emma: it's always a bit of a shock, isn't it?

Helen: It certainly is.

Emma: It's good to be here and thank you very much for inviting me.

Helen: I'm going to start by taking you back, to when you were a child. What was your hair like when you were a child?

Emma: Oh, that's an interesting question, isn't it? The first thing that springs to mind is it was very long. I had very long hair for a very long time, which, thinking about it is quite strange for me because associate long hair with femininity, and I've never been a particularly feminine person.

So, it's Interesting that's the first thing I remember about my hair. But the other thing I remember about it, when I was a child, is that I always felt my hair was very boring. The colour specifically, I always thought was very boring.

Helen: What colour was it?

Emma: well, I’m just trying to think how I’d describe it. I mean I would call it, I think if I think back, it actually wasn't as boring as I thought it was. It was just a perfectly acceptable brown colour, sort of mid brown, a little bit of red going on in there. Cause we've got the ginger gene in my family. So, there was definitely a little bit of red going on in there.

Looking back, it was a perfectly acceptable colour and probably quite nice. But for some reason, as a child, I thought my hair was incredibly boring. And I used to do all sorts of things to try and make it more interesting.

I don't know if you remember in the eighties, that craze for crimping. Those ridiculous hair irons that used to create a very artificial looking wave. I was obsessed with them for a bit when I was about 12, I think. So yeah, that's how I remember my hair as a child.

Helen: And did you experiment with dyeing it when you were in your teens?

Emma: Oh, definitely. Do you remember those little sachets? I think they were called temporary colours? They weren't kind of something that the hair would hold for more than a few days, really. But those little sachets of temporary colour, that was wash in, wash out.

I used to use those all the time, probably around the same time as I was just recalling, around 12, 13. I can remember taking my pocket money into the town centre, and getting into Boots and rifling through those sachets to try and find a more exciting colour. Yeah, there was a lot of those wash in, wash out sachets going on.

Helen: And did that continue into your 20s or was that just an experimental teenage phase?

Emma: I did continue dyeing my hair in my twenties. I don't think I've continuously dyed my hair. I think I've gone through phases where it felt important, or interesting, to me to dye my hair.

Certainly, in my 20s, I think that's probably when I was least likely to dye it, because I did go through a phase where I quite liked the red tinges in my hair. And I think there was a period where I thought, oh, actually, this is okay. I'm doing all right with this colour. I quite like it.

And then I think kind of late twenties, early thirties, I started to notice my first greys. I definitely didn't freak out when I found my first grey. I probably was kind of a little bit taken aback at how early it was, but then I knew that my mum started going grey when she was in her late 20s, that much of a shock.

I started dyeing my hair again, around that time when the first greys started to appear. Not because I was particularly bothered by them. Or at least not consciously. But I think there was probably something going on in my mind about, I'm too young to be grey, or, if not too young, then somehow, I'm not supposed to be grey, particularly at this age.

There was a while where the semi-permanent colour came in. I started with the temporary wash in, wash out stuff. And then at some point I progressed to highlights, and then it was semi-permanent colour. 

Helen: How long did you keep dyeing your hair for?

Emma: Oh, off and on, up until about a year or so ago. So yeah, there was periods where I didn’t do it. And I've never dyed my hair with a permanent colour, so completely covered the whole thing and had no natural going on at all. But for a long time, in my 40s particularly, when the grey was starting to show more clearly, I did get into a rhythm of, constantly dyeing my hair.

By constantly, I mean, I didn't think, oh, I fancy having some colour for a few months and then having a few months where I didn't bother. When the roots started to show, I needed to go to the salon and get it done. It became just part of my self-care that I would get my hair dyed. And that went on for at least a decade, I think.

Helen: Just get into the habit of it really, don't you?

Emma: Yeah, exactly.

Helen: Why did you decide to stop?

Emma: Oh, why did I decide to stop? I think partly it was because. I’m just trying to think Helen, exactly what got me to stop. I think it was a few things. But partly what was going on was that I've reached an age, I'm 51 now, I've reached an age where I just don't really give a shit. 

I'm not sure I ever gave that much of a whatever about how, I was supposed to look, at least not consciously, I live a feminist life. I became conscious of feminism when I was about 12. 

And so, I've always consciously had a slight tendency to, not even a slight one, just a tendency to not subscribe to some of the rubbish that women are told throughout our lives, about how we should look, or how we should be, or what we should do, and all of this stuff.

I actively live a life that works against some of those expectations. But I am not immune to the sexism, and all the rubbish that is thrown at women. Of course, I'm not, I'm just human. 

If I look back, then I'm sure that part of my hair story, if you like, part of the way I was definitely was infused with the messages we get as women, about what we're supposed to look like. And part of that is supposed to be, isn't it? Not being grey.

But I think what's happened now is, at the age of 51, as happens for a lot of women, my confidence grown, I'm more and more aware of who I am and how I want to live. 

And frankly spending hours and hours and hours in a salon, and spending literally hundreds of pounds on keeping my hair looking a certain way, was just really not something I wanted in my life anymore. And I was ready to just embrace the grey really. 

I did make that decision a couple of years before I stopped fully dyeing it. And I switched from, bleaching my hair, not in a kind of full-on peroxide blonde way, more in a highlighted way that blended in with the grey. 

I consciously did a transition between my dyed hair, and my fully natural grey hair as it is now. So, for a couple of years, we made that transition by using dye that actually was making my hair more grey. It was very greyish blonde colour, that blended in with all the greys that were starting to come through. 

I fully went grey, about a year ago. Partly because of the time and money that I would save, by not bothering with all of that stuff anymore. But also, just because I realised that as more and more of my grey came through and was visible, I actually quite liked it. It suited my skin tone better, it didn't look false. And I just realised that my grey hair looks really quite nice, so I've stuck with it.

Helen: The next thing I'm going to ask you is about ageing, generally, you've already said that you feel comfortable with where you're at. What are you doing to age healthily, if anything?

Emma: Ah, I am doing lots to age healthily. I'm gonna be really upfront and say I am not somebody for whom health and fitness has always been part of my life. I have had to, work quite hard to get myself into a position where I'm living a relatively healthy lifestyle. 

But what's happened to me in the last couple of years is, the perimenopause symptoms have kicked in. I've really become conscious of the fact that I am ageing. And the fact that with perimenopause comes, I suppose I see it as a responsibility on myself, to look after myself properly.

I'm not trying to pretend that I am perfect or get all of this right, cause I absolutely don't. But I do take steps in my daily life to create healthy habits that are going to keep me aging well. So, for example, I do a lot of walking. I do yoga. I do strength classes every week.

I've made some changes to the way I eat, because I have definitely got a sweet tooth. I have always been slightly overweight. And while I'm quite happy with my size and I don't feel that that's problematic, I do, recognize that I've got a responsibility to put the right kind of nutrition into my body, especially as I get older. 

I'd say that those are the things I'm doing to age well. But also, just looking after my mental health as well. I have a therapist that I speak to regularly. And I find that a really useful way of just stay aware of how I'm feeling, and having a space to process any challenges that are going on in my life.

That I think helps me to age well, just because stress is such a detrimental thing for anybody's health and a lot of stress is emotional stress. So, I think a therapist to me is part of keeping myself healthy and therefore ageing well.

Helen: At least you don't have root stress anymore.

Emma: No, exactly. 

Helen: It’s a real thing.

Emma: Exactly, I don't have to think, oh god, I can see I've got an inch or less of, grey coming through and I need to go and find hours to go and sit in the salon. That's definitely not part of my life anymore.

Helen: As someone who hasn't done lots of exercise over the years, did you put a lot of effort into finding something that you thought you would enjoy? Or did you go along in the beginning thinking, I'm doing this because I have to?

Emma: I've always done a lot of walking. Whether that's walking around in London where I live, or going out and doing full country walks, going for a day out, or long walks on holiday. So, I've always been a walker.

But the thing that I made a decision to do, more recently is the strength training. I knew for years really, that to keep myself healthy and ageing well, I needed to start lifting things. But I was really resistant to it, because I had all sorts of ideas in my head about it being boring, or how I wouldn't be able to lift weights.

And all sorts of nonsense that we all carry around in our head about different things. But it got to the point last January actually, where I thought, do you know what, you do really need to learn to lift something, even if you don't enjoy it. 

I signed up, for a program called the midlife makeover with a woman called Sam Palmer. And she has amazingly taught me to love, I never thought I would say this, she taught me to love doing strength classes twice a week. 

She's made them fun and interesting, and easy to fit into my life. So, I find myself in the very peculiar position, a year later, of actively looking forward to the classes and, actually enjoying them, which I really didn't think I was going to do.

Helen: I'm kind of similar to you. I started strength training in April last year.

Emma: Okay.

Helen: I've always run, and I've done yoga for like 10, 12 years. But I'd read all the stuff about, it's good for your bones and your muscles. And you're going to lose muscle mass if you don't do it. 

I went along thinking I've been to the gym an odd time, I really didn't like it. But I think it's just about finding the right environment for you.

Emma: Yeah. Absolutely.

Helen: and I really like the classes that I go to. It's definitely part of the routine now. And definitely stronger as a result of it. You can see changes to your body-shape, for me, without making any changes to my diet, which is quite interesting.

Emma: Yeah. Absolutely. I've got a bit of muscle definition now that I've never seen before, which is quite fascinating. It's like, oh, they do exist. They are under there somewhere. 

But also, I've noticed things like when I get on the train, I can actually lift my own luggage into the rack now, you know, the overhead racks on the train or on the plane, can actually do that now. I've never been able to do that before. I climb stairs much more quickly and easily. I just feel the strength in my body. 

So, there's definite benefits to it as well as the long-term benefits, as you say, of the muscle mass, and the bone density, and so on.

Helen: I think you've only ever been in bright colours whenever I've seen you, because obviously you're in orange today and you were in bright colours at Atomicon. Have you found your style change at all since you've gone grey?

Emma: That’s a really good question colour Helen. I’ve liked bright colours for a long time. But I think it’s absolutely true, that since I embraced the grey fully, I have felt a need to sort of use colour more often. 

And not just in my clothes, as you can see, I am wearing this bright orange hoodie today.

I've also got green-y blue nails going on. And if I was meeting you in a bar or something, I would probably have bright lipstick on as well. Those splashes of bright colour have always been there for me, but have probably been amplified since I embraced the grey.

I haven't really analysed what's going on with that. But I suspect that I've still got that residual idea from the world around me that, somehow that grey is boring. I think part of the bright colour for me is this idea that as older women, we're almost getting this message that we're invisible, or we just blend in to the background.

And one of the things I don't want to do, is give into that idea that once I reach a certain age, the world can ignore me.

So, I think for me, the bright lips, and the bright nails and the bright clothes. It's my way of going, yeah, I am still here actually. I may have grey hair, and I may be a woman of a certain age, but I'm here and I matter, and I've got things to say, just as I always have done, and I don't want to be overlooked.

So, I think, yeah, my style, if anything, has amped up on the colour front because of that since I've gone grey. I

Helen: You’re not alone in that, I've heard that a few times. Do you think part of it also might be through your career, you maybe, felt that you had to dumb the colour down a bit into blacks and navies and that kind of thing?

Emma: I think that's unlikely, because I have been self-employed for nearly 20 years. So, I haven't had to kind of tow the corporate line, if you like. I'm a coach now and have been for about eight years. Before that I was consulting, and particularly consulting, in the not-for-profit sector.

That's partly when I started dressing more brightly, actually, and less conservatively. Because it helped me to stand out, if people are hiring a consultant, they want something they can't get in-house.

Helen: Yeah.

Emma: By, presenting myself in clothing that wasn't the black, navy or whatever it was that people would typically be wearing in offices at that time, it instantly shows people, oh, here's something different. Here's somebody who can bring something that you haven't already got within your organization. 

It does make you more memorable. Certainly, go to a conference or something like when we met at Atomicon, I can't remember, but I was probably wearing something very bright or some big necklace or other. Because those things help you to stand out in a crowd, and also can be a good conversation starter.

For someone like me, who's introverted and struggles with small talk, and meeting new people, having something like that to hook on to, and give someone a reason to come over to me and go, oh, I love that huge colourful necklace you're wearing. Where did that come from? It takes the, the pressure off me to have to go and start the conversation.

Helen: It's a good tactic. You weren't expecting it to be the grey hair that started the conversation. 

Emma: No, exactly.

Helen: I'm going to come back to your grow out. I'm guessing your transition was quite easy because you never really had the skunk stripe that a lot of people don't like.

Emma: The stripe has in the kind of the one piece of really grey hair.

Helen: Yeah. Against the coloured section.

Emma: Yeah, I never had a stripe in that really sort of demarcated way, but what I do have, my stylist calls it a halo. The front of my hair, is very grey now, it's almost a blondie grey, the front of my hair. But if I turn around, you'll see it's much darker at the back. I

Helen: Mine’s actually very similar.

Emma: Right, so maybe this is a thing. I know my grandma's the same. So, I suppose I have had that stripe in a sense, and still do, in that the front and the back are very different. Luckily, I can't see the back in the mirror so I forget about it, I don't really care what it looks like to anyone else.

But I do also have a sort of much lighter bit in the side of my hair, but it's never been that Catlin Moran style big grey streak.

Helen: Yeah.

Emma: Although I think that looks really stylish, personally.

Helen: Is your hair the colour that you thought it would be before you started to grow out?

Emma: No, it's not. I've been surprised by how blonde it looks, actually. I don't know why I'm surprised, because when I see my Mum, my Mum's 20 years older than me, her hair looks really lovely. It's sort of this greyish blonde colour, and why it should be a surprise to me that my hair is coming through the same colour as my mum's, I don't know. But for some reason, I hadn't quite connected in my mind that I only needed to look at my Mum to see what my hair would look like when I grew it out.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the colour. I think that's because we get all these messages, don't we, about grey somehow being boring, or dull, but actually it's not. there's so many different shades of grey, even within my head, and yours, and lots of others, I can see, almost the natural highlights going on with the different shades and different tones.

It's all really beautiful. Not that it has to be beautiful, but you know, it actually is. 

Helen: I thought mine was gonna be a lot whiter than it is. I think usually get so fixated on what you can see. Which in my case is the front of my hair, which is the white part. And then the rest of it's like, oh, that's not nearly as grey as I thought.

I'm going to ask you one last question. 

Emma: Okay

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice or tips would you have for them?

Emma: I would simply say to them, If you want to go grey, then absolutely do it. And if you don't want to go grey yet, then don't do it. The key thing for me is just do what's right for you personally. You know, try to think about what you want, not what the world says you should want, or what other people in your life think you should do. But just to really tune into whether you are ready and want to embrace your grey.

And if you do, great. And if you don't, that's also great. It's very much a personal choice and to me, of part of my feminism is not to say we've got to be one way or the other, but to do things from our own perspective. Do things that matter to us and for us, not in response to what other people, or the world in general, thinks that we should do or be.

Helen: That's a great answer. I'm gonna stop it there and say thank you very much for joining me and have a good day.

Emma: Thank you very much, Helen. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.