Happier Grey Podcast with Shama Persson

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm joined by Shama Persson, a grey-haired activist who fights injustices when she sees them. She runs a modelling agency, Golden Age Models, in Sweden, and they focus on a counterweight to the increasing ageism in society.

Hello, Shama. How are you?

Shama: Hello, Helen. I'm really good, really good today. Thank you.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you when you found your first grey hair?

Shama: Oh, I was just like 30, and it wasn't like a first grey hair, it was a patch. Up on my front of my scalp, all of a sudden there was like a little white area or circle there growing out. And I asked my mom, what is this? And she's like, oh, I forgot to tell you girls, we go grey when we are 30 in our family.

Helen: How did you feel about it?

Shama: It was horrible. It was really horrible. When I became 30, that was my only life crisis when it comes to my age. Because I felt so old, you know, to just become 30. And then realize that this little white thing is growing out, it was awful. 

So I began to colour my hair.

Helen: To cover the greys?

Shama: it was a desperate need back then.

Helen: How long did you dye it for?

Shama: Twenty years. Can you imagine? When I think about it, when I decided to stop when I was 50, I was like, imagine all the chemicals in my head all these years, you know, all the money.

I was really, like, waking up to the health disaster. You know, all the toxins I was getting into through my scalp, sitting there with these for like an hour, once a month, more or less.

And then also the money I spent.

Helen: I actually can totally relate. Cause I think I dyed mine for 20, 25 years.

Shama: Yeah, yeah.

Helen: and you just get into the habit.

Shama: Yeah, and you think you need to. Because I thought if I wouldn't do it, when the roots came out, there was something about me feeling both poor, like I couldn't afford to do it, and also sloppy, like I didn't take care of myself. If the grey roots were shining through, that was a disaster. Especially, at some point I had more brown, reddish hair, and that I stopped with. 

Let's say like the last ten years, I was always more blonde-ish. That was easier, when the roots came. But it felt, something shameful about that.

Helen: Yeah. I can completely relate to that. Cause I used to find that you'd go to the hairdressers and have it done, and feel great about it. And then, about a week later, you'd start to see those first couple of millimetres of silver coming through. And, you just felt a bit of a mess.

Shama: Yeah,

Helen: you dyed it again.

Shama: yeah, and it felt like it was a struggle, that you can't win somehow. It was a prison of wanting to look kept together. It was very much part of how I saw myself. Like if I, if I did this, if I had nice nails, if I had my hair under control and, there were certain things in my life that I needed to have under control, then my life was good.

And this with my hair was definitely one of those things.

Helen: I'm guessing that it was probably over a couple of years that you started questioning whether you should be doing it? 

Shama: No, it was on a whim, actually.

I spent a lot of time, my daughter she lived in Aruba, in the Caribbeans. And when I came there, and I stayed there for quite some time, my blonde hair, after a while, it wasn't as visible. I noticed, in Aruba, the roots weren't as visible as they were when I lived in Sweden. 

It was one time when I came home, and I went to the hairdresser, and I asked her, is it possible for me to just let it grow out? Can we do something about it? 

 I had highlights. She, decoloured? She removed the highlights. I have pictures of the first time we did it, and I turned grey almost instantaneously. Because I've been in Aruba for a couple of months, so it was very blonde and yellowish, mixed up with this grey thing.

And when she took away that blonde everything became grey. So, for me it wasn't a long struggle. It was like more or less I went overnight. I know I have a post on Instagram and it said like, “Hey, so today I went grey”.

Helen: It feels like a more painless way to do it. Although you do have to sit for hours in the hairdressers.

Shama: Yeah. But I think that, for us blonde, it's easier. It seems like it's easier. I have friends who have darker hair and they really struggle. Because if you have blonde hair, it's obviously easier to make it to grey, than to go from black, dark, salt and pepper hair.

Actually, some friends, have ruined their hair, trying to go grey. My partner and colleague in the agency, Anna Sofia, her hair is really salt and pepper and now almost all of it is done, but it has taken like three years or something.

Helen: You have quite long hair.

Shama: Yes. I never had as long hair as I have now. I never had in my previous life.

Helen: . I have that in common with you too. My hair is longer now than before I went grey, just because the condition is so much better.

Shama: It's so easy.

Helen: Yeah, before I had mine bleached blonde and it just used to get very dry. And it also didn't really suit my complexion. It washed me out.

Shama: Yeah. True.

Helen: A lot more than my natural colour does. If it got beyond shoulder length, I just started to look really drawn and ill. 

Shama: I find myself, if one can say so, of course you can. I find myself more beautiful today than what I was when I was colouring my hair. Because as you say, it fits with my face, it fits with my skin colour. My natural hair fits me much, much better than all the efforts I had in the past.

Helen: Which leads me on nicely to, you've told me you started modelling when you were 50, when you went grey?

Shama: True, true. It's just like a couple of weeks after I did this transition, I was asked if I wanted to join a modelling agency in Sweden. And I was like, what? Can one? Can I do that? And it's like, yes, yes. And so, I did. It was never a dream of mine. It was never something I thought I could do. And, so I joined and then after a year, maybe I got the first assignment and then, especially during the pandemic, actually work begin to come in.

 It's very much like if you do one job, and that turns out well, then someone sees that and you're hired again. So, I've been very fortunate the last years to work with this.

Helen: And then you decided that you would move from another agency to creating your own. Do you wanna talk a little bit about why?

Shama: Yes, yes. If you come into a totally different industry, which you are clueless about, you don't know what norms and ideals, and how it works. Of course, you've heard like to be a model, you must be maximum 20 and super skinny and very tall. And they all have high cheekbones and, special features and so on.

I had nothing of that. So, I was very like positive. But back then they, there weren't many mature models. 

But after four, five years I was at the client ,and we were shooting, and it was me and the same four young girls. It was always like two, three, four, five, sometimes seven young girls and me. And I realized, there are norms. I'm just a box, they tick in because it makes a good mix to have one African girl, to have one redhead, to have one old lady. And I was always the old lady, so I really felt like this is not a privilege, this is discrimination.

Everyone is young except me, everyone. Even, the marketing managers, everyone was young, except me. And I'm like, what is this? There's something wrong with this industry. Why aren't there more mature role models in the world? 

I began to question everything, even the nice things. Like they giving me a later call time so I could sleep in. They letting me leave earlier, spend less time on the floor. And I'm like, how old do they think I am? I really felt like they looked upon me as if I was much older than I was. And I realized that this is not a privilege, this is discrimination.

I asked some friends that I have gotten to know, my age, that if I start a modelling agency for old people. I didn't dare to say old back then, three years ago, I said mature people. 

Back then, I hated when people called me old. Now I'm like, hey, old is a beautiful word. For me, old is not a negative word. 

So I started this agency and it will be three years in May this year, we are actually on a roll. it's going really well. We also took a stand one year and a half ago, that we say no to Botox and fillers and other youth enhancing procedures. We don't allow that in the agency, which means that we are more or less the only agency in the world who has a zero tolerance, to those procedures, because I find it discriminating. 

I find it just tapping into the narrative that we are all fed to believe, that old is ugly, and young is beautiful. 

At the same time that we earn money by putting more and more old people in the media, we are also making a difference, being activists. To run this agency is very fulfilling for me and Anna Sophia who work with it, and for all the models who are in it also. Of course.

Helen: I think it's so important that we normalize natural ageing because it's the one thing in life that we can't fight.

Shama: It's also the way it should be. And I think I can say it's the most healthy and sustainable way to age.

Helen: Agreed. In terms of aging healthily, are you doing anything in terms of fitness and nutrition?

Shama: I do. I just came from the gym, right now before this. I try to go to the gym, three times a week, if I have the time and can. I run also. I do yoga, since quite many years. And I eat healthy. 

I struggle with some condition. I can also feel like to be a woman and menopausal or past menopause, it affects us a lot. I'm learning more and more about all the ways it does affect us. 

For me, for example, who sometimes use a lot of makeup, meaning I clean my eyes from a lot of makeup. And as a woman, past menopause, you get more dry. When we enter menopause, we should begin with eye drops regularly. They say three times a day. 

I didn't do that. Which means that I have a condition in my eyes where my glands are clogged, due to less fluid. And if I knew that, I would have started with this eye drops before. And I think we should be informed of that there are actually conditions when, our hormonal level changes, as we age that we can take care of.

So, we don't need to suffer, because I think we should suffer as little as possible because of ageing. 

I am a grandmother. I have two grandchildren. I want to be 100 years old. But I want to be a healthy, a happy 100-year-old grandma. I don't want to end up, in a wheelchair like my mother. 

 I want to, treat myself as good as possible during these years, because I may have 40 years left.

Helen: You sound very similar to me. I also do running, and yoga, and strength training at the gym. I started this year only because I'd read so much about bone density and muscle loss as you age. And my mum's 89, lives on her own and I want to be like her,

Shama: Yeah. Yeah.

Helen: Want to be fit and healthy at that age. It does mean you need to start thinking about it, now.

Shama: Yeah. And I think to invest time and money into your health. Instead of investing time and money into your appearance, how you look. For me, it's better to eat well, sleep well, be happy instead of investing huge amounts of money into doing Botox and fillers. And having all the consequences that you eventually will have from that.

Helen: I'm going to bring you back to your hair. Your hair is very white. Do you use a special shampoo and conditioner to keep it that colour?

Shama: Sometimes, like say maybe once every third week, I use silver shampoo. I don't use it so much because I enjoy the mix of colours. They are blonde but if you look in the back, It's almost black. I have a lot of different colours in my hair, and I love the natural way.

But sometimes, especially if I go to a job and they use heat protection on the hair, it turns yellow. It's really bad. It's really, really bad when you realize that heat protection and a tongue, a curler or something, then your hair becomes yellow. I don't want them to do that, but sometimes they do, against my will. And then I need to use the silver shampoo. 

I know I can, remove the yellow in it if I want to, but most times I don't want to. So, I use a normal, Shampoo and conditioner. Yeah.

I'm very much of an easy does it person. You know, when I wake up in the morning, I don't even brush my hair. I woke up like this. It's so easy.

Helen: Yeah, the other thing that I found is I only wash my hair once a week now.

Shama: Me too. Me too.

Helen: I used to do it, every other day when I was dyeing it,

Shama: Yeah.

Helen: It looks after itself a lot more now.

Shama: Yeah. It's like nature has its way.

Helen: I'm going to ask you a little bit about Sweden versus England, I guess. When we had COVID lockdown, quite a lot of women chose to go grey because they just couldn't go to the hairdressers. And meant that there was an increase in the number of women that you were seeing in their forties, fifties and sixties with grey hair.

Did you see the same thing in Sweden?

Shama: We saw like, I think it was 2022, a lot of articles in the media. I was actually an article together with Andy McDowell about her going grey. And then there was a reference to Sweden, and Shama Persson is also an example of this trend.

I think during that time it was very in fashion, it's still in fashion to go grey. I mean, we have grey hair movement, we have grey hair and fabulous, we have great transition. There's so many hashtags on social media. 

And there's so many accounts that has popped up with grey, silver lining, where they have a name instead of their own name, they have a nickname, something grey. So, I think it's very, very popular to, go grey. 

When you go grey, you don't know how it's going to be. And I think that is the beauty of aging. I am so curious. What will I be like? How will I be when I'm 70? How will I be when I'm 90?

All I can do is look at my parents. My dad, he died when he was 52. But I can see other relatives in my family. To see like, wow, will I be like Aunt Ragnhild, she had this beautiful long white hair up in a special, you know, very, fit and muscular and tiny. And I feel like maybe she's, what I will be. 

But I'm so curious about aging. And I think that that is also like the grey hair transition. It's, so interesting. You don't know what it's going to be like.

Helen: I think a lot of people, the colour they get is not what they expect.

Shama: Exact. And then you realize, like I, for example, realize the whole back of my head is more or less dark. But they have little blonde on top of it. So, it's not so visible. But does it matter? No, it's beautiful. You know.

It's like, I see myself like an animal more these days, like a dog or a horse. You would never say, Oh, what an ugly dog. What ugly fur that dog has. No, whatever they look like, they have spots and they have this and that, and we feel like, oh, they're so beautiful. 

And I think that that is what I want to see people, to embrace what nature will bring them. Of course, I am all for beauty. Question is, what is beauty? Is beauty only the artificial? Is beauty only makeup? Is beauty only young? Is beauty only thin? You know, what is beauty? So, I want us to redefine beauty and to really see natural aging can be the most beautiful thing.

Helen: Especially because if you accept what's happening to you, and you're more at peace, then probably a lot of the tension goes out of your face and your body anyway.

Shama: And then I would say, if you look at my face now compared to when I used to colour my hair, of course there are other things in this too, but I was much more strained. I was much more tense and less happy. It's not about my hair, but it's about all that I said. I need to cover up to look good, to have an appearance that people will see me as something special, you know, and now I don't care how people see me.

It's like, I'm not afraid anymore, which means that I'm more free to be who I am. And I think that shows up in my face, also my expression, with my eyes. I think to just accept and be happy. The more happy you are with who you are, the way you are without adjusting it, the easier life becomes.

Helen: Agreed. I'm going to ask you one last question. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice would you have for them?

Shama: I would of course say go for it. Whatever you will turn out to look, because you don't know that right now, it will be amazing. And it will be your way. 

There will be times where you feel like, I wish I could just shave it off so it can just grow out like it's supposed to be from scratch. There will be a struggle. And you will probably doubt at times, why did I do this? 

And you will maybe feel at times that you are not looking as you want. It's the transition. I think that the hardest part for us women to accept is the transition because we've been trying to cover up those roots for an eternity. And now we are letting those roots come out. And I think that is the hardest part, to accept that you are both kind of the old you and the new you. 

A good hairdresser can do a lot of good too. to help with the transition. So, if you really want to do it, either you just go to cold turkey, like I did, or you go to a good hairdresser and you make a plan for it. And they will help you say it's going to take you three years. And maybe you need to cut your long hair into a short bob or something. But it's possible.

There is a lot of acceptance and peace and joy and money also and time to be saved. And for me also, grey is the colour of wisdom. Don't you think? 

Helen: Great take on it.

Shama: I think so. I think actually when I went grey, it's like I finally matured into being a grandmother. I finally matured into not being the little sister. I was always the baby in my family. 

It is as if people, when I'm grey, they see me as a bit older than I am. Which means that, I find that it gives me more stability as a person, as a woman, than when I was trying to cover up looking younger.

Because it, is a lot of trying to look younger.

Helen: Yeah. 

Shama: That's how I see it. Yeah.

Helen: Well I'm going to say goodbye then. Thank you very much for joining me.

Shama: Okay. Thank you so much for having me. 

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.