Happier Grey Podcast with Jackie Webster

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm chatting to Jackie Webster, who helps midlife women rediscover their purpose. She believes that we're all here with gifts to share and potential to fulfill, but we can lose ourselves whilst looking after everyone else.

I'm sure so many women can relate to that. Good afternoon, Jackie. How are you?

Jackie: Good afternoon, Helen. I'm very well. Thank you very much. 

Helen: I'm going to start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Jackie: I was trying to think what age I was. I can remember the actual time it took place and I reckon I was late 30s. I'd always had colour in my hair. I just loved to have colour often, because I'm dark haired, I would have all sorts of different colours in my hair at different times.

Possibly the greys might have been coming through before then, but I just didn't spot them at all. But I know one day I was just combing through my hair, and I think the sun must have just hit at a certain point, and I thought well what's that? And I looked and it's like (gasp). It's grey hair, and it wasn't grey, I mean it was white. It was very, very brilliant and stood out. 

I can remember my first reaction being, well that's not right. I took a second look, thought no, that's exactly what it is. And I did that, well, not awful thing, but I just got the tweezers and pulled it out. Because I wasn't ready for that.

Because to me, that was, If I've got grey hair, I'm getting old. And late 30s, I didn't think that was the case at all. So, it had to go. I think it was about late 30s when I spotted this one. It's just on the temple, right hand side. I know where it was.

Helen: You've said that you were already experimenting with dyeing your hair. Did you start that in your teens?

Jackie: Late teens. I was a huge fan of Madonna. It was back in the sort of 80s, 90s, where you had the puff shoulders, and you had all the big hair, and there was colour everywhere. Madonna and some of the other pop artists, that's what I wanted.

I would very often, blonde highlights, big chunks of blonde. At one point I had what I'd call a blonde forelock, because I was very into horses. Blonde forelock and sort of copper for the rest. Sometimes even splashes of purple in there. 

So, I didn't really notice the grey immediately, apart from that one hair. 

I don't know if you'll remember Helen, but when I was much younger, every now and again in primary school, the knit nurse would come. She would get her comb and she would take it from the front to the back. Do a parting and look in. Luckily, I didn't have them, that was lovely.

But this is what the hairdresser did. She took the comb from the front to the back. And she just said to me, while we're doing your highlights, do you want your roots done? And it was like, what roots then? 

And she said, well look more carefully. And you could just start to see, especially where I did have a parting, there were little flecks coming in. And I hadn't really seen them, that's what I was looking at, and that's what got my attention. 

That was early 40s. When that conversation took place and I've up until more recently had them covered up ever since. Any sign of grey, it had to go.

Helen: Going back a little bit to what you were doing in the eighties and nineties. Do you think your hair was a major part of your self-expression and your self-image?

Jackie: Absolutely. Yes. Hair was important to me. I look back and I think, I know I had other interests, and other things occupying my thoughts. But hair was important because sometimes one of my first things I would say going through the door,” Sorry, I'm having a bad hair day”. Because if my hair wasn't quite right, I didn't feel quite right. It was quite an important thing. 

I've always had it short round the sides and down the back and then just a little bit more wild, and unmanageable at the top. I always got used to people saying to me, “Oh, your hair looks really nice”, just as I was about to have it cut and coloured. Whereas when I just had it done, nobody said a word. It was just quite remarkable. 

I can't speak for everyone, but I think for a lot of women and men, it's not just women, but I think for a lot of people, hair is important because it's one of the first things people notice.

They'll look at what you're wearing. They'll look at your hair as well. And sometimes people find it much easier to say what colour hair you've got, the more colour eyes you've got, because they haven't actually connected with that. 

I've found people, and I can be guilty of this, is when I'm describing somebody, I'll try and guess the age a little bit, the height a little bit, and I will go to the hair colour quite quick, and the style of the hair.

I think for, a lot of us, if our hair's looking good, we feel better. It can be a real confidence thing. Most certainly. I don't know about you, but for me, it's always been important. 

I've tried growing it long as well, because I'd look at people with lovely long flowing locks. And each time I did it, I spent all the time with it just in a scrunchie. And I thought, well, why, if it's just pulled back in a scrunchie all the time, I didn't have it as beautifully long as yours, where you could have it over your shoulder like that, Helen. 

So, I thought, well, I might as well just have it short. The short hair has been there for a long time. And now, the shortest bits are very, very grey, and the rest is certainly getting there.

Helen: What was the trigger for you deciding that you were going to grow out the dye, and just let it go grey?

Jackie: This is a very easy one to answer, because I'd said to my daughters, do you know what? When I turn 60, I'm going to go grey. I'm going to just let myself go grey. 

I think some of it was helped by the fact the price to have it was high. I think the last few times it was up to like 85 to have it cut, coloured with some highlights. And I can spend my money on better things to be honest. 

But I'd said no, when I'm 60 I'm going to do that. And I think this was round about when I was 57, 58. So I thought to myself, well, I've got a few years before. 

And then a real important moment for me was when I saw Dawn French, the comedian come onto television and gone were her dark brown locks, and there she was silver grey. It looks like she had help to make it look that gorgeous so quickly. There didn't seem to be an in between time. 

But I just looked at that and thought, well, I like that. And that suits her. It hasn't changed her. She's still very funny and full of life. And She's proud of who she is. She's had a lot of knocks with her weight for years. And she's never given into it. Good for her. And with her hair, I think she shocked quite a lot of people, but in a good way.

I've just turned 61, and I think it was when I was 59. I thought, why am I waiting? Why am I waiting till I'm 60? Which is only a year away. Let's just start it now. So, I did. Just said to my hairdresser, when you come next time, don't bring the colour. Just come and give me a cut. And that was it really.

Helen: How did you find the grow out process?

Jackie: I have to say I've quite enjoyed it. Because I realised for me, it's a strong thing to do, because my hair has always been important to me. I do have to stand up in front of people quite a lot and speak. I'm very involved in my church, so I'm very often talking in front of large crowds and for that I dress up very smart and I like my hair to look smart.

I came out to everybody just saying, I'm going to go grey. I'm just going to go grey. And nobody has said to me, “Do you think you should?” Everyone's been very encouraging, or I've had a few people go, “Ooh, you are brave. I don't know if I could do that.”

 But for me, I was quite relieved actually, because I felt, I've got to walk the talk. As a wellbeing coach, I'm one to one online, working with clients, helping them find, My tagline is find the true you, be authentic. And I think we spend so much of our lives, especially as we're younger, growing up, wearing a mask.

The people I work with nearly always they've worn this mask, and the real person behind them is maybe not as brave, not as confident, not feeling so great about life, doing lots of things for other people, losing their own identity. And I thought, I can't sit here pretending to be something I'm not. I'm somebody whose head has said it's time to grow the grey hair.

Maybe I'm lucky to have that attitude. But I've just absolutely gone with it, and embraced it. And I wouldn't go back. I most certainly wouldn't. 

I did have one time where we put a couple of toners on just to almost enhance the silver. We used a slightly different toner and it came out quite dark. So, this had all gone. This grey had gone. 

And I thought, “oh, I don't like that. That's not me”. I'd started to identify with the person I was seeing in the mirror with the grey hair. Quite liked it. So, yes, it's not something I would go back to now. I just think it's done me good.

Helen: I think a lot of people say that. Another question then, is the colour of your hair, what you expected it to be like when you started to grow out process?

Jackie: Because I'm sort of halfway there, my hair is still holding on to some sort of brownish tinge on the top. I haven't got the full picture yet. But I suppose I thought I would go whitey grey like my mother. And I'm not at that point. 

It's salty pepper there's some white hair and there's some silver there's a real mix match, which I like actually. It brings texture. It makes it look good I think. I didn't really know what to expect, I suppose, Helen. I thought maybe it would be like Mum's, but I think it's going to be a little bit different, which is fine. 

I think I'll just be happy with whatever it's like because it's me. If it's natural, then that's how I'm supposed to be, I feel. I'm looking forward, fast forward a couple more years to see how far I've gone then. But it's on its way, certainly. I love that.

Helen: Most of my white hair is at the front, so I was expecting like you to be much more silver grey than I ended up being, because I've got quite a lot of dark still in the back.

Jackie: It's a bit like Christmas. You never know quite what you're getting, do you? 

Helen: The next thing I want to ask you is, about ageing, and how you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Jackie: As a wellbeing coach, I'd like to think I've got most of the elements in life that I feel are important for wellbeing, good enough. I don't ever say perfect. I'm not looking for 10 for anybody. It's just got to be good enough. 

I work with eight elements: Off the top of my head we're looking at nutrition, and movement, and life purpose, and emotional health, and environment, relationships and spirituality.

I'd like to think that I've got enough knowledge, and resources on hand, to put myself in the best position I possibly could. I've got a good amount of friends around me who know more than me, that can help me if ever I get stuck. But when it comes to the ageing process, I keep reminding myself, I'm never going to be as young as I am today.

 I think for me, turning 30 was my most difficult decade. Turning 40, 50 and 60, I've seen relatives and friends have difficulty stepping into the next decade, and I haven't. I'm just very much aware that not everybody gets to be our age.

And to have the amount of health that we do have. Mine could be better, but I'm very thankful with what I have got in life. And I'd like to think that I am moving forward into older age as disgracefully as I possibly can, with as much fun as I possibly can, and still being well enough to look after myself and those around me, and friends, and family, and for it to be a sort of an exchange really.

I'm okay about it. I don't know whether or not it's also because of my faith. I don't look that far ahead, and wonder too much about what I'm going to have to have in place. I can do future planning, be sensible and be practical. I'm very practical, but I'm not fearing anything. I'm not worried about anything. 

I'm just looking forward to keep getting greyer. Keep embarrassing my children, because that's my role in life, to be that annoying mother. And to help people. That's what it is for me really. So, I think I'm all right. Check back in a couple of years time, Helen.

We'll see how we're doing. At the moment age is,

Helen: Well, it sounds like you've got the connection part nailed. Just curious, what are you doing in terms of movement?

Jackie: For me, it's not exercise. I used to be a bit of a gym bunny. That's not for me anymore. I've had my own journey with ME and it's too harsh an environment, the lighting, the noise. I would much rather be outside in the fresh air doing something.

 We did recently, unfortunately, have to say goodbye to our dog. But I've continued doing the walks every day. I think it's important for me to be out and moving, every day in the woods, in the fresh air. I'm a great one for visiting the beach whenever I can, because that's my happy place.

I have already planned that later this year, I will get on the horses. So that will be something joyful to do. But I'm a great believer in also breath work, and just gentle stretching and things, so that you are using your body but not over pushing it. Because I've seen what happens when you over push it.

Gentle movement, fresh air. It all adds up. It's far better to go out for maybe two or three ten-minute walks a day, than try and do a one hour one straight off. If people have got that health and energy to do that, that's absolutely lovely, but obviously I work a lot of the times with people that haven't got that, and I'm aware of what that's like.

Little and often, as our parents would often say, I think.

Helen: Would you say your style has changed at all in terms of the way you dress since you've gone grey?

Jackie: I don't feel that since I've gone grey, my style has changed. I've always had slightly different styles depending on what I'm doing. When I was much younger, and before my daughters were born, I used to run a livery yard for horses. 

During the day I was in jodhpurs and boots. But in the evening, I was either down the pub or in the nightclub. So, I would be dressing very differently at different times of the day. I don't think I actually owned a pair of jeans until I was in my 30s, because it was either jodhpurs, or miniskirts really, depending on where I was.

I think it's still the same that my style goes with the work that I'm doing, or whatever it is I'm doing at the time. There are times when I am dressed very comfortably, shall we say. There's times when I'm working with my clients where I want to look halfway decent at least.

And then when I'm standing up at church, I'm there with my jacket and looking smart. I don't think I've changed my style, with the grey. And I think that I'm lucky because I like white and blue. I think that actually the grey is fine. I'm not having a clash of colours, so we're all right.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice would you have for them?

Jackie: My initial reaction would be, because I can be a bit like this, is absolutely go for it. Oh goodness, it's the best thing you can ever do. 

However, it suits me in my circumstances. Not everybody is ready to make that move. Some people will be sort of, “Oh, well, if you think that's right, then I'll give it a go”. That's lovely. 

But it's got to be, true for you. Everything I do with my work is about being authentic, being the true you. And I think if you're thinking about it, then I would say go for it. Because the thing with hair, I've always said if you get a bad haircut, don't worry, it grows out pretty quick.

And it's the same with colour. If you find yourself a good hairdresser who can just help you do that transition over, then give it a go. If you're going through the process and you're thinking, “no, it's not right”, get the colour put back in. We have choice.

I always think it's better to look at something and think, “Oh, that didn't go quite well”, than to look at something and go,” I wish I'd tried it”. It just depends. So, everybody's an individual, everybody's unique. We were lucky to live in a world these days where we do have quite a lot of choice compared to other regions in the world.

So, I would say, if you feel like going for it, then do. But certainly, don't be pushed into it. Don't let anyone say you should be doing it. I like people to think I want to do something rather than I need to or should do. But that's just the wellbeing coaching.

I haven't regretted it for a moment, so I was lucky.

Helen: How long did it take you to grow it out? I didn't ask you that because your hair is quite short, isn't it? 

Jackie: It is quite short. You can actually see here where it's quite grey white. It hasn't taken that long actually. I think it's taken me no more than a year and a half to get to this point.

Being honest, I think the first six months I thought, am I doing the right thing here? Is this going to work? But then as each month went past, it just got, yeah, this is okay.

And especially, as I said earlier, when I did have a toner put on that put it back, looking a bit too brown. And I just thought, no, no, I don't want this. I feel I'm heading in the right direction now.

Helen: Cool. Thanks so much for coming on and chatting to me. It's been really interesting hearing your story.

Jackie: Thank you, Helen. It's lovely to meet you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.