Happier Grey Podcast with Ilise Harris

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm joined by Ilise Harris, the creator and co-director of Your Roots are Showing, the award-winning documentary about the global movement of women choosing not to cover their grey hair. This international makeup and hair artist has been silvering for 20 years and understands personally and professionally what this means to the individual and to the collective.

Hello, Ilise. Thanks for joining me.

Ilise: Thank you, Helen, for having me.

Helen: I'm going to start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Ilise: Yes, I can. I was in my mid 40s and I had a makeup studio at the time. And I saw them and it was just like, okay, I have grey hair now, so I need to make an appointment at the salon and have them covered. I didn't question it. It seemed like the perfectly natural and normal thing to do. 

And at the same time, really right from the get go, I was very uncomfortable with the process. I resented the time I was sitting there. I didn't like the smell. I found the residue of the dark dye on my temples and in my ears to be just really off putting. 

I also didn't like the way it shifted my, natural hair colour, which is pretty cool and ashy. And then I would get golden tones and I just hated them because I found them, very disruptive with my skin tone, which is fair, but a little bit warm.

At the same time, I was dealing with a lot of women who were also maturing, and not feeling very good about it. I was watching what was happening in Hollywood, with a lot of actresses going to great lengths to preserve themselves, in amber so that they'd look young forever. With mixed results, some of which were really disturbing.

I had young daughters at the same time, they're dealing with being young girls, and just the peer pressure and the expectations. It was kind of a perfect storm. 

As a makeup and hair person, you look at things objectively, or at least you try to, is this attractive? Is this unattractive? You don't necessarily want to just accept everything. Otherwise, you don't think individually. You don't think creatively anymore. 

So, I would look at my hair and say, are these hairs ugly? Do I dislike them for any reason? That's reality. And the answer was no. I thought they were kind of interesting. The hardship of the money and the time and the bad smell and the chemicals just wasn't worth it to me.

I quickly decided I wasn't going to cover them. And then I had pretty much the feedback that most women get, particularly 20 years ago, and maybe even amplified because people question how can you be a makeup and hair artist and have grey hair?

Somebody even told me I wouldn't be able to work in the beauty industry, if I had grey hair. Well, the gauntlet was thrown, because I just found that to be the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. 

I was feeling like I was just on top of my game. I was a better makeup artist than I was 20 years before. I'm just warming up. So, to be told I can't work with this? It was a challenge, and I became a little bit militant, maybe, and certainly defiant. 

Then at the same time, I have clients, and they sit across from me, and because my grey hair is showing they're very quick to say, “Oh, well, your grey hair looks good, but mine wouldn't because,” and all of the because has become, my daily conversation.

On the other hand, I have got my friends, and we can have a different type of conversation. I can see their silvers, and I can just come out and say, what are you doing? Why are you covering these up? Do you realize they're actually nice? And we would have a different kind of conversation.

20 years went by of me having the conversations ad nauseum. I even went through some of the rabbit holes that women who choose to silver go through. Which informed me even more deeply about our hair, and how instrumental it is to our sense of well-being and identity.

The first time this realization hit me really powerfully was when my grey hairs are coming in, but I wanted more. I wanted some streaks. I want a little action because they looked like a couple of threads at this point, you know, like threads from a sweater or shirt flying through my hair. I was working with a model on set and she had silver hair and she's 20 years old. So, I thought, oh, I'm going to get some highlights in that colour and I'm going to look really very exciting.

I go to get the highlights, but the stylist was too afraid to lift the hair enough. So, I came home with a head full of blonde highlights. The worst thing in the world. I didn't know who I was. I knew one thing. I'm not a blonde. The disconnect between my hair and how I was feeling was intolerable.

And then I said, it's just hair, but it's not just hair. Now I'm kind of blonde, but I'm not blonde, but I'm blonde. And I was apoplectic. I couldn't live with it because I'm not a blonde. It's good for her, she's a blonde, but I'm not that. 

So, into the New York City I go. Many hundreds of dollars later. I go to some colourist who, I say, “Look, I can't live with the blonde, but I want grey”. Do you understand? Grey. Next thing I know, my whole head is the colour of a battleship. It was battleship grey. That was equally traumatic. 

So again, I'm really understanding, wow, you know, the way our hair colour sits on our head is very meaningful. It can be really, so important. At that point I'd had enough experimentation with the whole thing that I just quit dyeing my hair.

Helen: How long ago was that?

Ilise: 20 years. I was 45, now I'm almost 67. 

Helen: Did you have a couple of years where you were dyeing your hair and experimenting with the blonde and things? 

Ilise: About two to three years. Then when I got out of it, I did get some lowlights, and they were really nice, because they kind of broke up the doldrums a little bit. Before you get enough silver, sometimes you can feel a little bit not here, not there. There's not enough silver to be exciting, and so you wonder what to do.

I liked the lowlights, I did. But then, that also becomes cumulative, and at some point, you have to say enough, because you're getting too dark. You know, you're reversing what you went out for in the first place. 

I was very happy once there were enough silvers to make my hair look interesting. Then I was merrily silver. I find the whole process to be interesting and to watch over the years. The patterns that are innately ours, and uniquely ours.

I think that I was very much an advocate for my friends and my clients, who just wanted to stop dyeing their hair, for all of the reasons women want to stop dyeing their hair.

Helen: And are you seeing that happening more and more over the years? 

Ilise: Oh yeah. You know, there were a few people that certainly, gave the public something different to look at. I think one of the first, and I do mention her briefly in the film was, Cindy Joseph. Who had been a makeup artist, and then she became a model. And then she started the brand Boom. 

She was one of the first times we saw someone who was in midlife, who looked exciting and beautiful. Not because she was trying to look younger. I think she was one of the first people to start using the phrase pro age instead of anti-age. And that just flips the whole equation on its head. 

We started to see a little bit but it was slow going. You know, there's still a lot of resistance. Wherever a woman turns she's going to get resistance. The pandemic and social media were two other things that completely accelerated things. 

And that's kind of when I said to myself, wow, this is not a trend. This is changing the culture. This is a moment. This is like they're burning their bras on the streets. Having a moment. We're wearing pants to work, or whatever that moment was in fashion and beauty history you know, the hundredth monkey. 

And so, I thought, wow, I should document this. Because I've been a hair and makeup artist forever, since before they invented, lip gloss. I was there with Vaseline. So, I should be the one because I'm an elder. I'm a crone. I should tell the story. 

It really came to me in its entirety, the whole idea was right there. The fact I didn't know how to make a film. I didn't let that get in my way. I figured, you know what, I'm not sending anyone to the moon. No one will get hurt in this process. We'll figure it out. 

I was ready for a project I had turned 65. Now I'm an official senior citizen. And the industry for hair and makeup has changed dramatically since my glory days. There used to be magazines every month, people used to have subscriptions. We used to sit with them, and save them, and savour them. That doesn't exist anymore. 

The work I used to do that I loved so much was not available. I was ready for a pivot. I was not ready to retire. And I thought, okay, I'm going to make a film. I know the story from the inside and from the outside. I know it as a person. I know it is a hair and makeup professional. I get it. So, I did it.

Helen: You did, and it's a cool film. How many women did you interview for the film? 

Ilise: Oh, my goodness, so many, they just kept coming out of the woodwork. And a lot of them I didn't interview. If I found someone compelling on Facebook or Instagram, where I think they made a point that I knew had to be made, and they made it in a way that was intelligent, and compelling, and accessible, then I would reach out to these people. Strangers completely. 

I would just introduce myself. And try and engage in a dialogue where they would feel they could trust me, and they would participate in this project, that really had no form. I'm just telling them my intention, no promises, no nothing. Just can you record yourself telling your story? Because I liked what you said here. I think other women need to hear it. 

And I really looked for diversity, both wide and deep. What I mean by that is ages. Starting with really young women. We don't have any idea how many really young women in their teens and twenties are covering their grey because we never see them. So, for them to come out boldly tell their story. That's a real game changer for a lot of people. 

We have the age from young to older. But we also need the range of hair types, because it's a common story that I would hear. Oh, my hair is straight. It'll look terrible. Oh, my hair is curly. It'll look terrible. I wanted to have a range of hair types, but I also wanted to have a range of skin tones. 

I also wanted a range of transition, because hearing from someone who's got three inches of profound growth. The visual means something, when you're hearing from her. So, I looked for all kinds of people. 

I also looked for different places. Because each place has its cultural rules, or sense of style. I'm in the United States, but New York has one vibe. LA has a different vibe. The South part of the country has a different vibe. And so it is around the world, London is not Paris, it's not Milan. It's just not.

I wanted to hear from people who have a different stylistic aesthetic as well. Because the more representation I could show, the more women could find someone in the film that they could relate to pretty directly.

There was the people I didn't know. There were the people I did know. There were strangers. I always had my phone in my pocket. If I would see a silvering woman, who looked reasonably friendly, I would really just approach her and just introduce myself. Not talk too much because I still wanted the spontaneity. I didn't want, people to freeze up on me. 

So, I said, listen, if you don't like what I just did here, I'll delete it. But I want to ask you a few questions. I'm a makeup and hair artist. I'm making a film about silver and women, and your hair is great. Can I just, film you? Surprisingly, everyone said yes.

People like to talk about their hair. They do. And maybe I wasn't too, frightening, but I, had people talk to me all over the place. On a walk, Grand Central, I would just do it. Then I'd reach out and I'd get permission to use what we had done together. So, they were the random people. The friends that I trapped wherever we happen to be. The strangers I met on social media.

Then I wanted a few people to represent the industry. I had one of the co-founders of Hairstory, which is a very progressive brand of hair care. I had a hairdresser who is more than a hairdresser, he's really an educator. And I had one of the women who has a brand devoted to silvering women, that's Alexis from Silvering Beauty. I wanted their perspectives, because they come at it from an industry perspective.

Helen: Yeah.

Ilise: I kind of considered them pillars. And including, Ronnie Citron Fink, who wrote a book. Because she was with the Environmental Defence Fund, and was an authority on the toxic chemicals that are in hair dye, which is a reason many women choose to quit dyeing their hair.

Helen: I think the way that you recruit is quite similar to my podcast. I just want as wide a range of women as possible. Some of them are people who volunteer with me at Parkrun. Some of them are people that I've met on Instagram or on LinkedIn, who are better known.

But for me, one of the really important things is trying to say it's not just for beautiful women. Because I think one of the things that you see on Instagram is a lot of the silver influencers are just very beautiful, and it doesn't really matter what colour their hair is, they would look great.

Ilise: Yeah. Oh, I was mindful of that too. Because someone who is in that, glamorous arena, well, as beautiful and inspirational as she might be, there are a lot of women who just look at themselves and say, well, I'm not that. I wanted women who, could be the lady who lives next door to you, just a person, without the glam. 

So, I did look for a range of women wearing no makeup who have a very down to earth style, right up until like the most glamorous ones I could find. I just wanted everybody, like a big orchestra with every kind of instrument in it. 

There are common denominators, it doesn't matter who you speak to who has gone silver. She feels free, and freedom brings with it other gifts. And I think about this too in almost more esoteric and spiritual terms, because having dealt with hair and touching hair, I know that it's kind of a conduit. We're like these hard bodies and then we're energy and the hair is somewhat in between. It's almost like, the road between our physical body and our energetic body. 

That's why I think it's so traumatic if you get a terrible haircut. I started to think about, wow, a silver hair is actually hollow and see through. Okay, It's a conduit. It's like a tentacle. So, what are we doing to ourselves when we fill it with chemicals? Are we cutting off or messing with our energy field? 

I know this sounds a little out there, but I've spent a lot of time dealing with it and thinking about it. Because what I found is this feeling of liberation that women have when they quit dyeing, seems to go beyond the hair. It seems to go right down to the roots of who they are.

And then sometimes, oftentimes, other things change. They accept their whole selves. They stop beating themselves up. They say, wait a minute, I'm okay. And when you're okay with yourself, what can you do? Whatever you're doing, you're going to do it better and more fully. And I feel like there's some personal power that people access when they get freedom. 

You can get freedom in different ways. You can get out of a bad relationship or a terrible job, and then you're free and you feel all these good things. But when women get loose from the dye, they get free in a very profound way. So, I think it's important. And I just thought the more voices.

And also looking for those common denominators amongst the whole chorus, and freedom is one of them. Self-acceptance is another one. And with that, also community. The Silver Sister community is kind of phenomenal. They put all the nonsense aside, and they just support one another. They don't care where you come from, they don't care your politics or your religion for the most part.

They just want to support each other as human beings and isn't that something? And don't we need more of that? I feel like I'm in this really fun next phase arena and also like we're in an arena where we're not done. We don't get this, expiration date that we have to run away from.

We just get another chapter, and then we say, well, what am I going to do with this chapter? How am I going to live going forward with freedom, and self-acceptance, and an awareness of my own self? Isn't it kind of cool to get older for many women, they're done with their child raising years, or they're done with their professional years that took up a lot of time and energy.

Now you have this time and energy. That's a new chapter. That's not an end. There's so many other avenues that are connected to ditching the dye. It's wild, I think.

Helen: I was going to say, for me, it's once you stop trying to chase the aesthetic of youth, then you can concentrate on what really matters for you in terms of how you're going to age healthily.

Ilise: Yes.

Helen: I was gonna ask you a little bit about that in terms of what are you doing to age well?

Ilise: Oh, so many things. 

Back to what you said, and that was a nutshell right there. Because I know that the energy and time spent on chasing youth requires more energy and more time. Because you get further and further away, if you're lucky enough to live long, spending your time trying to be back then.

In a personal sense, I just really try to stay in the moment, and not get all bogged up about numbers. Sometimes I don't even know what age I am. What age are you? I'm 66. Oh, I'm going to be 67. I have to think about it for a moment. 

So, I try to do things that keep me nimble. I take salsa hip hop and the women in my class are, they're like 40. I don't go in there like, don't step on my hearing aid if it flies out. But once in a while, whack myself in the head with my glasses, bruise my nose. But I try to stay in the mix. Even listening to music that I wouldn't have access to any other way. I'm like, oh, oh, I thought I hated this, but now I can see, some value in it.

I try to do what makes me comfortable. I don't wear clothing to try and be this or that. I just want to be comfortable. And I try to take care of my health. I eat well. Take my dance classes. That's it. I don't really overthink it. And I don't try to obsess about, the inevitable changes in my physicality, because what are you going to do about it?

How much money, time and, draconian things. are you willing to do? I'm not willing to do a lot of them. I'm willing to do some, I will admit. When I get a little Botox on my eyebrow, it lifts my lid. So, I feel more awake and perky. I don't do it because I want to look younger, and I don't let her go near my crow's feet because I look at them, they're not ugly, right?

If my teeth are yellow and I don't like the colour, yeah, maybe I'll get them lightened. I stay flexible. I look at the things that are available to live well, and feel well, and then I try to make the best choices, based on time, budget, what interests me. 

I don't, like to make too many rules that I'll never do this. I mean, there was a time I said, I will never get Botox. Absolutely not. Until my eyes were so lidded that when I wake up in the morning, I'd like, Oh, I'm depressed. I was like, no, I'm not actually depressed. I just can't open my eyes. You know, I have a sleepy feeling. So, those are the things that, I do.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question, and obviously you've spoken to many women about this, so you should be able to give me some top tips. If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about ditching the dye and going grey, what advice would you have for them? 

Ilise: Well, the first thing I would say is, you’re not going to go grey, you already are grey. Right. You already are grey. Right. You already are grey. 

I would say okay, listen, it’s a big step. Right. And you’re going to get a lot of resistance. So, you have to be ready to do this. And then you need a strategy. Cause there’s only a few ways to do it. And it’s not one size fits all. 

So, you know, I would discuss with them the ways they can do this thing. Everybody's different. 

The grey blending can be beautiful. It'll take you longer to get there. It's gonna cost a fair amount of money. But for some people, that's the best way for them. 

Somebody else? Somebody else is ready for the pixie.

Somebody else is ready for the skunk stripe, and will wear it as a badge of honour. It really depends on the person, and her personality. 

I will tell them that, I don't know anybody who has ever said I grew it all out, big mistake, I went back to the salon. For the most part, it's absolutely the opposite. Best thing I ever did, I wish I would have done it sooner.

And the younger people do it, the more they get to enjoy all those phases, and swirls, and stripes, and funny patches, and unique bits. You know, if you're 80 years old and you do it, okay, fine. But if you're 35, you're in for a treat. Because there's a surprise waiting for you there.

Helen: Very true. I'm going to wrap it up there and say, thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest.

Ilise: Thank you for having me.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.