Happier Grey Podcast with Gin Lalli

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Gin Lalli, a solution focused therapist and author of how to empty your stress bucket, who helps people break free from anxiety and stress with practical science-based strategies.

Hello, Gin, how are you?

Gin: Hi, Helen. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you.

Helen: I'm going to start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Gin: Yeah. I think a lot of people can say that, women, especially. I was 35. I looked in the mirror and I found it. I went, Oh God, that's a grey hair. It was a long grey hair. I was wondering how long has that been there? 

And I immediately plucked it out of my head and didn't think anything of it. Just plucked that out, and then carried on with my day. But I do remember.

Helen: Did you find lots more coming through shortly afterwards or did it take a while?

Gin: Not lots, a few more started coming through, and just started plucking away at them. Because that was easiest to do then. As they started to come through a little bit more, jumped to the die. And again, it was a very unconscious decision. It was almost automatic, well, okay, I'm going to start dyeing then.

Looking back now, that I can say it was an unconscious decision. I had a few friends that started dyeing their hair. And again, they weren't really talking about it. Oh my God, I've started dyeing my hair. It wasn't an announcement.

But you know, they're always like, “Oh, l, yeah, I've got to go and get my roots done. At the hairdressers”. It was just part of conversation. But yeah, looking back, quite an unconscious decision to start dyeing it.

Helen: Yes, so programmed into us, by the standards of the society that we live in, that you just do it.

Gin: Yeah. I was 35, I just felt like I was a bit too young to be having grey hair. But I remember my Dad was saying he went grey really early. I think in his late twenties. But again, it's different for a man, isn't it? 

I had jet black glossy long hair, and which was my real pride as well. So that the grey would really stand out, the one grey hair, or maybe to me, it really stood out. Oh, there's that grey popping up. Either pluck it out or automatically jumped to the dye.

Helen: How long did you dye it for?

Gin: 10, 15 years, at least, it must be looking back. God, that sounds long, doesn't it? Yeah. 12, 13 years at least. And I did everything. Went to the salons. Did the box dyes at home as well in between. 

And then as that got more frequent, I was just getting fed up. I don't know if anyone would resonate with this, I was bored sitting in the hairdresser's chair. I sit there for so long, getting your hair done and having to make inane conversation, with people. Like, that was not a good use of my time. 

I would often, take a book. And I would say, look, I don't talk when I'm here at a hairdresser. So, I'd take a book. That started pretty quick. But it was such a waste of time. And I had to start doing it more and more frequently. 

I'd get it dyed, it'd look beautiful for about a couple of weeks. Then I'd start seeing all the grey roots coming through. And they were now getting more increased.

 I went through a phase of do a little bit of dyeing at home, and then go and get it done properly again at the hairdressers. But I was there for an hour and a half, two hours including a bit of travel time. That's a morning, and I just really didn't enjoy the conversation that I had to have there.

And it's really expensive as well. So yeah, all that started building up in my mind. I was like, this is ridiculous. What am I doing wasting this time? I could be doing so many other things, so yeah, wasting time at the hairdressers. Sorry to all hairdressers. I do apologize, it's not an enjoyable experience for me.

Helen: I was similar in that, I used to take a book or a magazine because obviously it took forever. Then I reached a crossover point when I had to start wearing reading glasses. I felt I couldn't really put them on when I had the bleach on my hair. 

Gin: Yeah.

Helen: So, then I really was like sitting twiddling my thumbs for a couple of hours.

Gin: yeah, it was just crazy. So made the decision.

Helen: And when was that?

Gin: Actually, it was during lockdown. So, 2020, the hairdressers then all closed. For a couple of months, I did box dye at home. And then I was just fed up with that mess that goes with box dyeing at home. You know, get your towels out, and then dripping dye.

Because we obviously weren't going out so much, it didn't bother me. I work online on screen, and I was actually super busy through lockdown. So, I was staying as presentable as possible, but I don't know what came over me. On an emotional level, I turned 47 that year, and my Mum died at age 47 from ovarian cancer.

Helen: Okay.

Gin: So that was a hard year. For lots of different reasons. I was like, Oh God, what age is this? This is no age to be dying, as in passing away, not dyeing. 

Helen: Yeah. 

Gin: Pardon the pun. But it just felt like, this is getting older, having grey hair is a sign of getting older, and actually getting older is a privilege.

Helen: Uh huh.

Gin: So, that was a hard year of going through those sort of emotions. Just prior to going into lockdown, that was when I turned 47, and I was thinking, shit, my Mum died at this age. 

Although we've got very different lifestyles, she had four children by choice. I have no children by choice. I've got a totally different lifestyle to her. In lots of ways, I felt younger. But then that visual representation, of you are 47 Gin, your grey hair is coming through, your face has changed, your body's changed, perimenopause kicking in.

What do you want? Do you want to own this, as I've owned lots of things in my life. Or do you want to keep, I almost felt I was hiding away from myself. I was like, no, that's not you. You own everything you do. If you're going to do this, own it and do it now.

So yeah, that's when I did it. It was quite layered reasons, to do it, but yeah, quite an emotional reason.

Helen: I can empathize with that. I will be 60 this year. My dad died when he was 60, and it is just such a weird feeling. 

Gin I know.

Helen: Cause you do think, hopefully I've got lots of years left, and I've got lots of energy, but that's not the way it is for everybody. I guess it really does help you see that aging is a privilege, but it's also, quite an emotional thing to think about.

Gin: Yeah. So, it was hard. But you're keeping that at the forefront of my mind, like, you know, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to own it. I think that's what came over me. Right. I'll own it now. Yeah, you have got grey hair. I stop hiding away. 

I don't hide other parts of my life away. Like I said, I'm quite open about the reason I haven't had children. Just through choice just, just wasn't for me. So, I thought, well, you own this part of your life as well now, and let's see, what happens. And like I said, just getting tired of doing it. I was like, no, I'm not going to hide away anymore.

This is what it's like. So yeah, I went for it.

Helen: I'll see if you can empathize with this then. When I first started the grow out, it was a bit like the root stress on steroids. For the first couple of months when you had that first couple of inches and it would just like, oh my God, I just look a mess every day. Is that how you felt as well?

Gin: Not necessarily, I don't know if lockdown helped. Basically, I wore a hat for about six months, like a beanie hat indoors, even indoors and on screen. And I was telling people that I'm growing my roots out, so I'm just wearing a hat. If I didn't wear a hat, sometimes, I'd just tell people that I'm growing my roots out.

Everyone just loved it. I had a few people thought that actually that was my style. My hair is long and black and that's because, my faith, I'm Sikh. We don't traditionally cut our hair. Definitely not short. And I had friends suggesting it, pixie cut or just get it lobbed off and I went, no, that's not an option for me.

I was tempted, but there was a part of me that couldn't do that either. I'm not saying I'm overly religious, but it was just that cultural background to say, I don't think I could lop it all off. 

At one point, half of it was pitched back at the bottom and the top was coming through really grey. And a few people even thought that I'd had that done deliberately. You know, when people were sort of getting their head dip dyed

Helen: Yep.

Gin: and they thought I'd had the top dyed and left the bottom, so I was making a fashion statement. So that was a fun phase to go through. Often people didn't bat an eyelid and didn't say anything about it.

It took a long time. Altogether, it probably took two years, and which shows you how long my hair is. That was easier to handle. I don't know if you found that Helen, the texture changes so much. I was used to this silky, almost oily black hair, and when the grey came through, it was quite wiry and dry. 

I didn't know how to manage it, like washing it and conditioning it became, tricky. But I just did the best I could, and I wore a beanie out for quite a while, to help it grow out.

Helen: Mine was probably a bit different to yours because mine was bleached blonde. It was very dry and brittle on the ends. 

Gin: Okay.

Helen: Not silky at all. Now it is a lot silkier. It's also a lot easier to look after, because I only wash it once a week now, whereas when I had it bleached, I used to wash it every other day. 

Gin: Yeah.

Helen: And had to put a lot more conditioner on it and things. So yeah, it's made life a lot easier.

Gin: Isn't that interesting because I'm the opposite in a way now. Before I avoided things like conditioner and masks because it was oilier, and silkier. So, I didn't really need them so much. Whereas now, I'm definitely using hair masks and things more,

Helen: Okay.

Gin: as well. Conditioner is my best friend now. I've gone the other way, noticing how dry it's got. That's a tip I'd give to people, the texture is going to change depending on what your base is, it's almost like relearning a new head of hair, isn't it? So, oh, this is new. This is different. 

It's surprising how you get conditioned into certain ways. Because you've been doing it your whole life, and now you're having to learn your hair again. You relearn it, relearn the texture of it. Yeah.

Helen: Do you do anything to maintain the whiteness? 

Gin: Yeah, I use a purple conditioner. I've tried lots of different ones, but just the purple conditioner, tends to work very well.

Helen: Have you found one you like a lot?

Gin: Yes. Can I name it?

Helen: Yeah, I do.

Gin: Yeah. All right. I don't know if I could plug it, but it's in Lush. I actually quite like lots of natural products, but it's called a Lush violet conditioner, Violet Cream it's called.

It's so purple out of the tub. I use that. I almost use it as a hair mask. I'll put it on even for a while before I'm going to wash it out. Shampoos, I'll use all different ones. That doesn't bother me so much, but that violet conditioner is the best thing I've found. I love that one from Lush.

Helen: I actually don't use a coloured shampoo or conditioner. I used to use, when I bleach my hair, the Aveda Restructuring Conditioner. And I just keep using that same one, so I wonder whether it kind of does the same job.

Gin: Yeah. It might do the same thing for you, because like you said, you were blonde before.

Helen: Uh huh.

Gin: So, your texture is different. Yeah. I'm learning. I do notice it going a little bit yellowish sometimes at the ends. A bit brassy. I've never had that. So that's where, I knew I had to have a purple conditioner.

 It really helps. Really, really helps.

Helen: Yeah, I think that's probably the other thing with me is, because quite a lot of my hair is still like the dark blonde colour. So, I maybe wouldn't notice it yellowing as much as someone else anyway.

Gin: Yeah, you might not. But yeah, something to look out for if you've gone from very dark to grey. Yeah. It's a whole new world.

Helen: Or if you have more white hair than I do.

I'm going to come back to the reaction that you got when you told people you were going to ditch dyeing your hair, and just grow it out. Did you have anyone who wasn't keen on the idea, or was everybody interested?

Gin: I was so surprised. I thought I was going to get backlash, you know, from people. Oh, what are you doing that for? Like you shouldn't. No one. No one, Helen, everyone encouraged me. It's like, Oh my God, that's amazing. Well done you. Wow. Yeah. Just give it some time. It'll grow out. 

That's where suggestions and helpful hints were coming in. Should you cut it or how about, conditioning? That's when I found out about violet conditioners, purple conditioners. People had advice for me. 

But they were also a lot of people said, I wish I could do it. I wish I could do it. And I was encouraging them. I went into it thinking I'm going to get a backlash. Especially, my background is Indian, we're very much about image, you've got to look good.

So, I thought maybe I'll get some pressure there. Oh, what have you done that for? You know, just dye it. But honestly didn't get anything. If anything, got encouragement. 

When I went to the Gurdwara, which is our Sikh temple, I thought, all right, okay. Put it up, and I wonder what people are going to say. People either didn't say anything, cause they thought I'd had something done to my hair. It was quite salt and peppery. So, people actually thought that I'd had my hair done like that deliberately. Or when they asked, they went, oh my God, it really suits you.

Then they were telling their friends or some aunties were telling their daughter in law, oh look, you should do it. You're always dyeing hair. Look, it looks really good on Jane. Like, oh, it really suits you. It really suits you. But you know what that is, Helen, I think again, it comes back to owning it.

I was dressed up to go to the Sikh temple. I really made sure that everything else was on point. And I'm doing that a lot more now. I was making sure my makeup was good, and what I was wearing was good. And the whole outlook wasn't, you know, like we were talking earlier about associating that grey hair with that kind of granny image.

If I was a granny, I'd be going in, with my little cardigan on and stuff. But I wasn't. I didn't. I kept everything else my personality. I just said, yeah, my hair's gone grey. I think that really helped. And again, that's my advice for people. Don't lose yourself just because your hair's gone grey.

Keep your personality in everything. Don't think that you've got to dress down. If anything, I'll probably dress up a bit more. I'm more conscious of how I look with my grey hair. Yeah.

Helen: That is quite interesting because that is one of the accusations that certainly you hear in the media is that you've gone grey, you've let yourself go.

Gin: Absolutely, isn't it? Yeah. So, I wanted to prove that I haven't let myself go. And that's why I spend more time conditioning my hair now, looking after it, styling it. I'll spend more time on makeup. And I'm very conscious when I go out, of what I'm wearing. 

Helen: Okay.

Gin: That I don't want to look like, I have let myself go. Cause I haven't. It's just that I've made a decision to have my hair natural, because of the time, and the privilege, I feel it is of getting older. I am 51. 

Now when I see people dyeing their hair, to me, I don't know if you've noticed it, it looks so obvious. I can really tell when people have been dyeing, I'm like, oh, that's died. You're definitely older than that. It's almost like they've not aged gracefully. I appreciate it's hard to let go of it.

Helen: I think the older you get, the more obvious it becomes, because there's such a disparity between your skin tone, and the texture of your skin, and the colour of your hair. And also, even if you do dye it, it tends to lose the gloss.

Gin: Yes. Yeah.

Helen: So you get the colour, but you've still got the texture of grey hair. It's a lot more matte.

Gin: Yeah.

Helen: I always think it's one of those things, where in terms of ageing well, obviously you're looking after things like your health and your nutrition, but from a mental health perspective, if dyeing, it makes you feel better about yourself, then that's still the right choice for you.

Gin: Absolutely. Yeah. If, going grey fills you with dread of letting it go, then don't. Keep doing it, but then accept that part of you, you know, that that's what you're going to do. You'll know when you're ready. Don't force it, just because other people have done it. But like for me, what I keep saying to people is, I cannot believe I did not get one negative comment, and I come from a culture where image is a lot.

Helen: Yeah, yeah.

Gin: You know, that portraying that image is huge, in particular for women. It was more in particular for me with the kind of lifestyle I've got. I don't have children. I've got friends my age who have got grandchildren now. I haven't gone down that route. So, I really had to own it, but I was really surprised, with the positive reaction and the support from people and the encouragement from people.

If you do have to work in a corporate or something, I can imagine that half and half how it looks. If you can cut it, cut it, you know, I couldn't. Pin it back. Do something about it. Or just say to people, yeah, I'm actually, I'm growing my roots out. Bear with me. And talk about it. 

it's very unfair that, for men, they're distinguished if they've got a bit of salt and pepper, but for women, you've let yourself go. So, show in other ways, show in your actions, and in your words that you've not let yourself go. 

I'm keeping up to date with everything. I'm doing everything else just yeah, just because my hair's grey, it doesn't mean I've let myself go. I'd rather spend that money on moisturizers and perfume and keeping up to date with things. It's all in your attitude. 

Going back to what I said before, when I started dyeing it, in hindsight, that was a very unconscious decision. I feel like now I'm much more conscious. 

Helen: Yes.

Gin: I'm conscious of everything that I do,

Helen: Yeah. 

Gin: you know, everything, walking down the street to meeting people, to the work I do, to the leisure time I have, saying no has got so much easier. I don't know if this is menopause as well, but just saying no has got so much easier.

I think, when you've gone grey, you're saying, this is who I am. You're being authentic, but it's hard work. And I totally appreciate, there was a time when I think it was about three, four months in, I was tempted to dye it again.

I was thinking, this is too much hard work. Look at it. It looks awful. You know, what is this half and half stuff going on? And I was tempted to dye back again. I'm so glad now I didn't. Because it would just start that whole cycle again of every two weeks, dyeing it every two weeks, staying on top of it, staying on top of it.

Helen: I think that's one of the things to say as well, everybody has some crisis points during the grow out. Where they question it. Where they just think it's never going to end as well. That's the other thing. 

Cause obviously when your roots come through, when you're dyeing it, it feels like they grow really, really quickly. But when you're actually growing it out, it seemed to take forever.

Gin: Yeah. Doesn't it? Yeah. That's what I was surprised at. I was like, oh, this will only take me a few months. The roots are coming out within two weeks.

Helen: Mm hmm.

Gin: so this shouldn’t take long, but yeah, it took forever. And like I said, from the top to the bottom of my hair, admittedly it's long, but not overly long. I think yours is even longer than mine. You know, it took a full two years. 

And even the back of my head is still dark. It's quite scattered. It's not even, my grey, at all. I think a lot of people would say that. I haven't got an even grey all the way through, but I'm just making the most of how it is, yeah.

Helen: Yeah, I like the fact that mine's quite two-tone. Some bits, like mine's very white at the front, but the rest of it's not nearly as much, so

Gin: Yeah. Yeah,

Helen: It’s stripy, but that's good.

Gin: I read somewhere it's an evolutionary thing. Even if you look at lionesses in the wild,

Helen: uh-huh.

Gin: they will go a little bit grey. At the front, more, this is going to sound awful now, to display to a lion that they're not fertile anymore.

Helen: Okay.

Gin: So, the lion won't approach them. That's why you go grey at the front more. To visibly say you're past it. After everything we've been talking about, Helen, I'm gonna just drop that one in. Yeah, I read that.

Helen: I like that. Back off buddy.

Gin: But it's to say, yeah, back off, like I'm not fertile. You don't need to come near me anymore, so you can just back off. But yeah, if we translate that into us as a human, I think now that's why women, when you get into your late 40s, 50s might be owning it a little bit more. And accepting that that part of your life is done. Because it's natural. It's very natural.

Helen: Yeah.

Gin: You've got to get to that place of acceptance.

Helen: I'm going to ask you one last question. If someone was to come to you and say, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice would you have for them?

Gin: One, go for it. Two, watch out for the texture of your hair to change.  Tell people about it, tell people that you’re doing it. Don’t be embarrassed. You are going to go through some embarrassment. You are going to go through a mix of emotions.  

Get some cute beanie hats, if you want. Cut it if you can, if that's an option for you. If you want to cut it, do that. 

Start paying attention to other parts of your life, yes, makeup and clothes, start paying attention to that, but you're not letting yourself go. Start paying attention to other parts of your life in that, how are you feeling emotionally, and what are your boundaries like. Get some hobbies and interests that maybe you've lost. Pick them back up again. Find that fulfilment somewhere else.

You'll be surprised how many people will admire you for it. I've been stopped in the street, and asked where I've got my hair done. And I've had to say it's natural colour People are thinking that I have actually had this done.

Own it and tell people what you're doing, if that will help you. Like I said, if you're working in corporate or something, tell people I'm growing my grey out, so bear with me. 

But everything else in your attitude should carry you. And I think that's where a lot of people just didn't really comment on my hair changing, because I had the attitude of going in just sometimes. I didn't even mention it at all. I just went in with a positive attitude. Let's get on with things. And only if people asked, then I would answer the question. 

Now I'm pretty much known for my grey hair, in Edinburgh, as well. So yeah, people know I've done it. Yeah. And I'm proud of it, but yeah, pretty proud of it and own it.

Podcasts like yours are helping, listen to people's stories of how they've done it. Get some tips, other women have done it before you. More and more women are doing it now. I think it's brilliant.

Helen: Yeah, there's lots of Facebook groups as well that are really supportive.

Gin: Yeah. Yeah. The freedom you get, oh my God, the sense of freedom I've had since I've done it, it's been amazing. Yeah, I've really enjoyed that. So yeah, hold on to that feeling. It's just such a sense of freedom that you get.

Helen: Brilliant. Well, I think that's a great place to stop. So, I'll say thanks for joining me and enjoy the rest of your day.

Gin: Pleasure. And you. Thanks Helen. 

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.