Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.  

Today I'm joined by Annie Stirk who worked in TV food for 35 years, and then ran her own food PR business. She retired at 67 and has been classic modelling since. Good morning, Annie. How are you?

Annie: Good morning. I'm very well, thank you, and it's a lovely sunny morning to be chatting to you, Helen.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what colour was your hair when you were a child?

Annie: It was kind of light blonde and then it turned kind of a mousy brown. And when I was 18, and went to teacher training college, I was horrified to find that I was plucking out lots of grey hairs. I couldn't understand what was happening. 'cause I thought, well, I'm only 18, I shouldn't be having grey hairs at my age. 

But I think it's a genetic thing for me, because my dad had really white hair. He went white quite soon in his life. So, I think I've probably just inherited the genes. 

I went through college, did my teacher training, married quite young. And we had our son and daughter, Edward came first, and then Sarah. After Sarah was born, I suffered really badly with postnatal depression. 

By then I was actually colouring my hair because I didn't like being grey. It was a visual representative of me being older. And I didn't like it because I was surrounded by people who were not grey, you know, of my age group.

Having coloured it, when I started, with this postnatal depression, I just felt miserable. I was really not myself at all. So, I stopped colouring it. Gradually it, just became clear that the postnatal depression and probably the pregnancy as well had had some effects on my hair.

And so here was this even whiter, older looking woman facing me. And it was brought into sharp focus, 'cause my brother who came up to see, our new baby, walked in and almost did a double take. Because he was expecting to see his sister, his older sister who had, you know, brown hair. And suddenly was presented with this woman with white hair.

Well, it was kind of not white at that point, actually, I have to say it was more of a steely grey. It wasn't very nice, and I just felt awful. And because Greg had said, oh. Oh God, you know, almost what happened to you.

So that made me feel even more miserable. I did actually spend a few years just really not happy with my look. And really struggled with it. I never had it professionally coloured. I always did it myself. And it was miserable, I used to put my head over the bath, you know, with the shower spray, when you were washing the colour off to get it right. And it just felt awful. 

Eventually, I stopped colouring it completely, and just decided to go with the flow. Which is what I did. My hair has changed over the years. I mean, now as you can see, it's a lovely white colour, which I’m really pleased with. But to go through the process is quite tricky, and it's a bit of a confidence sapper as well.

Helen: I'm gonna come back to a few things then. How old were you when you had your children?

Annie: 26. I was 26 when I had Ed.

Helen: Okay.

Annie: 28 when I had Sarah.

Helen: Your brother was commenting in your late twenties?

Annie: Yes. Yeah. It was kind of, quite a sobering experience really, because I hadn't realized how much my hair had gradually, you know, changed while I'd been colouring it, this sort of brown colour. I really got quite a shock.

Helen: Yeah.

Annie: So, you know, I obviously did start doing it again, when I sort of started to feel better. 

Helen: Would you say you started, dyeing your hair again as a result of his comments, and also feeling sort of out of place with your contemporaries of the same age?

Annie: Yeah, definitely, definitely because it just wasn't a thing to have, you know, grey, steely grey looking hair at a relatively young age. It just made me feel awful actually. It sort of sapped my confidence. I really felt very different to my contemporaries. I just didn't like the feeling of having this hair that was out of sync with my chronological age.

But as I say, I got so fed up with dyeing again. I just thought, I'm just going to stop doing this, and just go with it because I couldn't be bothered to keep up with the with the faff and the mess of it all really. 

Helen: How long did you keep dyeing it for?

Annie: Do you know? I can't actually remember. Maybe just a couple of years. Not very long. And I wasn't very consistent with it, you know, having children as well. It was a real faff.

Helen: You stopped sort of in your mid-thirties then?

Annie: Yeah, probably early thirties, actually, probably early thirties, stopped doing it. And, for many years, it was a steely grey colour. Not very flattering, I don't think. Because your skin colour doesn't feel right either. I couldn't get my makeup to look right with this steely grey hair either.

So, I spent a lot of years not actually feeling very confident. And then gradually it did start to change and the steely greyness did change over the years. I mean, I can't actually the sort of timescale of it. 

Gradually over the years my hair, because it changed, and became lighter and brighter, it did actually become something that was very me. It was different. And people used to comment on it. And ask me, what I used to get my hair that colour, and what, you know, sort of what particular dye did I use. And that can't be yours can it? Or I love your hair it looks great.

You just need a few people to say that to you, to give you the confidence to think, oh, you know, it doesn't look bad at all. It became my signature look really. It became something that I was known for. You know, the woman with the white hair, and she's only quite young. 'cause I, think it did begin to look much better. I thought it looked much better, as I got older, and the colour changed. 

And I was working in television as well. So, that was quite difficult because, you know, it's a world that was new to me. I just happened to get the job in television and found myself working on This Morning when it was based in Liverpool.

I was there for five years, with my grey hair, and I just found it was, you know, just accepted that was me with my hair. But no one else of my age did have my hair colour. It was just something that seemed to be peculiar to me, but by that time, I'd accepted it and had enough compliments to make me realize that, you know, other people did like it.

But you've still got that feeling that it's a little bit ageing, when you are younger. Wearing the right clothes, the right colours, having the right make-up, is really important so that you know, you enhance the look 

Helen: Yeah

Annie: and compliment the look.

Helen: So, have you got any tips for doing that?

Annie: Well, I think go bold, go bright. I'm saying that I'm wearing a black top today. But I did accept the fact that bright was quite good with this colour hair. Reds, you know, kind of greens, oranges, colours that I'd not really worn before. Block colours, rather than patterns, seem to work really well. 

I still love my black, and I still love my navy, which worked really well with this colour hair, especially for an evening, it can be quite dramatic. But, you know, those lovely cobalt blues. All look really good with this colour hair.

And then I would say. Going to a makeup counter, and try a few of them out, to say to the makeup girls I've adopted this grey colour. Silver, grey, white, whatever, shade, it's gone. And there are so many different colours of grey, aren't there?

Helen: Yeah.

Annie: No one has exactly the same colour. And just say, you know, look I'm struggling a bit with what foundation to use, what I make up to use, what lipstick to use. So, I've gone quite bold. I always like a bit of a tan in the summer, so I like to look as if I've got a bit of a tan in the winter as well.

I quite like smoky eyes. That enhances your look as well with your grey hair. I've only recently, over the last few years, started having my eyebrows done. I've never had them done before. I think if you can find a good person who can do your eyebrows so that it frames your face.

If you like a bold lipstick, try a few different reds because that all compliments, your look. It's trial and error. And I think the big thing is the look, and find colours and make-up that work with it. And it'll give you loads of confidence if you do that. It really does help. 

And also, you know, , a good haircut. My hair's been all sorts of different kind of lengths. It's been long. It's been quite severe. This is quite severe, but quite severe. And it looked a bit, I can't think of the word, but yeah, it just looked very severe, where it's a bit more PC and a bit looser now.

Helen: Yeah.

Annie: You do change and adapt over the years, and it is trial and error. But I know that a lot of women struggle when the hair starts to turn silver, grey, white, whatever. And it can be at a time of your life when there's all sorts of stuff going on as well. You know, there's sort of illnesses. You might be looking after elderly parents. You might have grandchildren. You might be pulled in all sorts of different directions, and your own care seems to go to the bottom of the pile. Because you just haven't got the time, or the energy, or the inclination. 

But I do think it's really important that we support each other and say, look it's all right. Go and get your eyebrows done. Go and try some different makeup on. Wear that red shirt because you look amazing in it. And just, encourage each other to just take a few chances.

My sisters actually, have two sisters who've struggled with their hair going grey. And they look fantastic now, but they again really struggled, but much later in life, you know, sort of in their fifties. It's a difficult thing 'cause it's a visible sign of aging and none of us want to feel that we are getting any older. 

So, it's just a case of trying to do our best to, you know, say, look, this is me. I'm here and I'm gonna wear this, you know, bright shirt. And I'm going to have my nails done and my eyebrows smokey. And, I'm gonna go out there and feel amazing. And I'm not making any apologies for it.

Helen: Your hair is very white.

Annie: Yes.

Helen: Are you using special shampoos and conditioners to keep it white?

Annie: It sometimes goes a little bit yellow. When I've used a hairdryer, or sometimes in the summer with the sun. So, I have used, a purple shampoo very occasionally. 

My hairdressers has advised not to use it a lot, because if you do use a purple shampoo a lot, your hair will go purple. So, if you just use it once literally every few weeks. I mean, I haven't done anything with it for ages. And that really does get rid of the yellow. It's really good. 

But also make sure, I didn't know this until Clare my hairdresser told me, don't just rinse the purple shampoo out. Use your normal shampoo and shampoo your hair after you've used the purple shampoo. 'cause otherwise, you know, you might get too strong a colour. I've found that a really good tip, it really works.

The only thing is with having short hair. I have to have it cut quite regularly. I've got a bit of an undercut and it grows out very quickly. So, if it is short, you know, try if you can, to get it cut a bit more regularly. 

I'm a bit lazy like that I suppose I use Tresemme, you know, those big bottles, 'cause they're quite economical. And I use that. I don't always use conditioner. Because sometimes when I first wash my hair, if I put conditioner in it, it makes it quite flat because it's quite shiny, and I don't particularly like that.

I have been known to use, you know, this sort of shower gel that's all in one. You know, it's body wash, hair, shampoo, and everything else, all in one. I do just use that. So, no.  I don't use anything special apart from those things for my hair.

Helen: Obviously, you're always getting marketed at to buy purple shampoos and conditioners. I don't use them at all. 

Annie: No.

Helen: I just use the one I used to use when I had it bleach blonde.

Annie: Oh, right. Yeah.

Helen: But I do find it interesting that some people do, and some people don't.

Annie: Yes.

Helen: On the subject of marketing then, your classic modelling, how did you get into that?

Annie: Well, I retired when I was 67 from my PR company. I had my own PR business, ran it for about 10 years. And before that I was doing PR anyway, with a couple of different business partners. And I was having fun, I enjoyed it. I was working with our local magazine, Yorkshire Life, as their food and drink consultant.

So had a really interesting, busy life. Sometimes it felt like work, obviously. 'cause PR is not. You know, if you want a stress-free life, you don't go into PR and marketing. But yeah, I was having fun meeting lots of people, you know, lots of events. It was great.

And I just thought, I'm not sure what I'm going to do when I do retire. And even when I did retire, I didn't know. So, one day, it was a February day when I had retired, I was just on my computer scrolling, and a message came up, models wanted, no experience required. So, I thought, oh, that's me. So, I sent a photograph of me in a Gatsby get-up. We were having a night out at a Gatsby event. 

And it came back, oh, great, you've passed, you know you are in. And I thought, oh, this is easy. What it was, not so much a scam. But it was one of those, they want you to go and pay for a gallery of photographs basically.

Helen: Yeah. 

Annie: It was a bit of a scam. Anyway, I went along and had a series of photographs done in different outfits. They promised the earth, you know, you'll have a makeup, you'll have hair. You didn't, in the end, it was just all down to you to do everything. But the photos were all right actually.

And I showed them to the girls who run a local boutique. They started using me for charity fashion shows, which was great. I then went to York Fashion Week, and said to them, look, you haven't got any events at all for women with silver, grey or white hair, and they said, no, we haven't.

And I said, well, you really should because it's a real untapped market. And they said, well, yeah, that's fine. Go off and do something. So, I, asked a couple of people to help me, women with grey hair. And then I was given Rachel Peru’s phone number. Rachel lives not far from me.

I didn't know Rachel, and I just said, look, I've got this idea for this event. Are you in, do you fancy doing it? And. Rachel said, yeah, yeah, I'm with you on it. So together we set up Silver and Sassy, and we ran an event, a really successful event. It was fantastic. Very empowering, very humbling. For women with silver, grey, and white hair. 

We got 14 women from all different walks of life or different ages, who modelled for us. And honestly, the feedback from them, the transformation in not just how they looked, because it was about that obviously, but also how they felt. And they all literally felt amazing, 

It inspired every single one of them to make changes in their lives in different ways. One went and auditioned for Calendar Girls, and got a part in it. There was one girl who started writing poetry. You know, they just all grew through the experience of being together, of doing this thing together, and feeling great.

And my sister, sadly she has become disabled out of nowhere. This sort of terrible thing happened within her spine, a fistula, I think they called it. And she became disabled. And, I said to her, look. I know you probably won't feel like doing this, but I'd love you to model for us because she'd gone very white, as well. And, she modelled for us, had a walker to walk down the catwalk and, felt amazing.  

We had appearances on our regional tele. And also, we were featured on national tele as well, a program called All Around Britain. It was just an amazing experience for everybody and it was all to do with silver, grey and white hair.

We felt really humbled by the change in all the women. You know, and how they felt, how they looked, sassing down the aisle, you know, on the red carpet, with a spring in their step. One of the girls wearing, biker boots, she never worn them before.

She was nearly 80 and she was wearing a pair of biker boots and a pink coat, and she just looked sensational. She was just rocking it like never before. And it was brilliant to see. 

Helen: It sounds like they were owning, it rather than being ashamed of it.

Annie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. They absolutely were. 

We didn't do that again. We sort of morphed the event into something we call find your Midlife Magic. We realized that women of our age, have all these different issues, problems, feelings, all sorts of stuff going on in their lives. We wanted to put an event together, which kind of acknowledged all that, gave them a safe space.

There's health and beauty in and amongst that as well. And we did a couple of makeovers. But we address the other issues as well, which a lot of the time, we don't get chance to talk to other women about how we feel. But it was amazing when you have a day like that, with women all together feeling, safe and supported. It's amazing how much that feeling allows them to be open about how they feel and they can explore their emotions as well.

Helen: It's fascinating talking to you, but I'm conscious of time. 

Annie: Yes.

Helen: So, I am gonna ask you one last question. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice for them?

Annie: You mean if they coloured the hair at the minute

Helen: Yes.

Annie: and then they wanted to let it grow out? 

Helen: Yeah. 

Annie: I would say absolutely. Go for it. Because they would find a whole new look. 

There are women who, I've met obviously, and you will have too, who just would not embrace going grey at any cost. And I've got some friends who still spend an enormous amount at the hairdressers keeping their hair, the colour that they were when they were younger. And nothing's going to change that. 

But if women want to do it and are feeling like doing it, I would say give it a whirl. Because, you know, if you really hate it, you can always cover it up again. But I think it would open up a whole new look as well. And it might give you an opportunity to, you know, do something different with your hair as well. And it does look really striking, doesn't it? 

Helen: Yes.

Annie: It can be a really striking look. I do think it's important to have a look at your makeup as well. So, it's the whole package. So, it gives you that confidence not to be so aware of, oh my God, I've gone grey, you know, isn’t it ageing. It’s not about that. And have fun with it.

Helen: Okay. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me.

Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.