Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Caterina Avanzi, a style coach who helps women discover their inner style. She believes that style is a journey. As in life we evolve, so style does never static, always changing. Caterina helps you find your style by getting in tune with the inner you. 

Good morning, Caterina. How are you?

Caterina: Good morning, Helen. I'm good. Thank you. How are you?

Helen: I'm good. It's actually sunny here and it's not supposed to be, so that's always a bonus, isn't it?

Caterina: Yeah, absolutely.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Caterina: No, because it's such a long time ago, maybe my twenties. Yeah, maybe then, and then I started dyeing of course, you know, my hair, to cover them up.

Helen: Can you remember why you started dyeing?

Caterina: Well, I guess it's, you know, what I saw, around me. Funny enough, not my Mum. she only had, you know, some grey hair in front, and she never dyed. But I, guess it was, you know, age because of the age I was, my twenties or late twenties. And it just seemed the thing to do really.

Helen: You are from Italy originally. I'm guessing you were living in Italy at the time?

Caterina: I was, yes, I lived in Italy until I was about 26. So yeah. Now that you say that, let me have a think. Yeah, I think I have started dyeing in my hair even before, just because you want to change her colour and things like that. So still I was in Italy. Yeah.

Helen: Yeah. What colour was your hair when you were a child?

Caterina: Brown. Yeah, dark brown.

Helen: And did you try dyeing it in your teens or anything? 

Caterina: Oh, I did. I always stayed, you know, around my colour. I went darker. I liked, kind of black. Darker hair. For a period of time I had short hair, while here in the UK and I had the highlight, blonde highlight. Why not? And when I was in UK, before I came here permanently, I went like red. So, I did a bit of crazy things. Never extreme, but you know, I experimented with some different colours.

Helen: And how many years did you dye your hair for?

Caterina: I stopped in 2018. So, I would say for maybe, 15 years. Since I started regularly dyeing my hair, between 10 and 15 years, I would say. Yeah.

Helen: How often were you dyeing it?

Caterina: Every four, five weeks. I think five weeks was the limit, when I started having more grey hair. 

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina: So yeah, around 4, 5 weeks. Yeah.

Helen: And were you doing it yourself at home or were you going to a hairdressers?

Caterina: No, I did it myself. I couldn't bare the idea of sitting at the hairdresser for that long, to dye my hair. Plus, with young children as well, after when I had children. It couldn't, be an option. And it was, less expensive as well to do it myself, obviously. Yeah.

Helen: You said you stopped dyeing in 2018, which was before the pandemic, so you were kind of a little bit ahead of the wave. 

Caterina: Yeah.

Helen: Why did you decide to stop?

Caterina: Well, the thing is I've always liked grey, white hair in women. I didn't hate, you know, that, I didn't think it was wrong. And I specifically remember, I went to New York, with two dear friends in 2009, 2000 and 10. Yeah. Before my daughter was born. And I remember, we were in, one of those shopping centre, in New York.

And I'm at the bottom of the escalator, and I see this woman at the top of the escalator, with straight, long hair to her shoulders. Maybe with a fringe, with a white, grey, white hair. And I looked at her and I'm like, wow, I love that. And I'm like, I'm gonna do that. So, I’ve had that in my mind.

And I know some friends were like, oh no, you know, why would you do that? But I'm quite single-minded in a way, you know, if, if it's right for me. So, in 2018. because of my husband's job, we moved to Poland from the UK. We were supposed to go away for two years, and I'm like, right there is the time I'm gonna stop dyeing. Do this transition while I'm away.

And then when we come back, I'm sorted. So, yeah. I remember June 2018 was the last time I dyed my hair.

Helen: So, did you decide to do that because you were a little bit worried about what friends would think, and it would be easier?

Caterina: To be honest, no. I was never worried about that. It just happened, that opportunity that we had to move away was a catalyst for other things as well, like, you know, starting my own business. It just happened because it felt like I had some mental space as well. 

And in fact, I stopped before we left, so my grey hair started coming out. But I was really cool about that because it was so important to me, to do that. And I loved it. That was the main thing, you know, I was so looking forward to let it be. Yeah.

Helen: The grow out itself, did you just stop dyeing and leave it with a line?

Caterina: Okay, so I know that a lot of women find it difficult, because of what you say in the line. In my case, it was easier then, and sometimes I think, well, I wish I had more. I have now, you know, I'm really looking forward to go all grey and white.

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina: But I know, it's different for me because I didn't have a line. I started on the side above my ears there is where I started. And in front, well now you can see me because we are chatting. 

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina: But at the back for example, I've got still a lot of darker hair. At the beginning, some people said, oh, do you have some highlights? Because it wasn't there.

I'm conscious that it just happened in the best ways. 

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina: You know, for me, at least. I do understand that when you have a line, and you've got that regrowing difference, isn’t easy. It just happened organically. And it just looked great. So, I simply loved it.

I have to say, it wasn't, a bad experience. And I'm still loving it, to be fair.

Helen: Your hair is a little bit below shoulder length. 

Caterina: Yeah. And it's wavy curly depending on, you know, the day.

Helen: Did you just keep the length as you were growing it?

Caterina: It was shorter than this. It was above my shoulders. And then I let it grow, but I'm up and down. There's been times where I was quite long, under my shoulders, and I saw a photo the other day and I was like, wow. 

And then every now and then for my curl as well, you know, to make it come alive again. I go shorter, maybe above my shoulders. It's around that. Sometimes I would love to cut it short. I have done in the past, I have. I do like, short haircut. 

But funnily enough, because I don't have all grey hair, I feel that it would be patchy, you know, when it's shorter. So, I'm not too sure that would be nice. I prefer to just show, you know what have. 

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina: With long hair.

Helen: But you didn't have a pixie cut?

Caterina: No, I didn't. No, no. I do like you know showing. I'm proud of it, to be honest. That is my message, to women. And I do, I have to say, I do get a lot of compliment, which is nice. 

Even from strangers, they come up to me and they go, I love your hair. I think. Yeah. You know, it's amazing. And I always like, oh my God. Thank you. It's nice to hear that. Yeah.

Helen: So, obviously you are from Italy and you lived in Poland, and the UK. 

Caterina: Yeah.

Helen: Have you noticed any differences between the three countries, in terms of women going grey, or dyeing their hair as they get older?

Caterina: We were only in Poland for six months or so, you know, didn't quite see the impact in there. I didn't feel,

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina:  like it was rejected if you want, in there. My main journey of going grey has been here in the UK. In the UK I think it's.

I dunno, maybe it's my perception because I tend to see positive in my surroundings. Plus, if I think that is right for me, it's fine for everybody else. And it's been positive. I feel that in here there is freedom, you know, of choices in things like this. So, I think it was pretty easy.

In 2018, went to Poland and it was summer. So, then we went to Italy. My husband is Italian as well, so we went to Italy for summer holidays. And I cut my hair short then. 

And my dad looked at me and he goes, bless him. He said, darling, I'll give you some money you go to the hairdresser, and you dye your hair. I'm like, dad, no, I'm letting it grow. And then he went, oh right. And then that's it, you know, he was on board. I can see it was a bit messy, and it didn’t look right. So, it was like, you know, what are you doing? There was one thing, but he came on board straight away. 

Then I know there's some other friends in Italy, they were like, mm, not too sure about that. I have to say though, that in the past few years, particularly after, Covid, I see online a lot of women embracing it. 

So, I think that even in Italy at the beginning, I don't think it was accepted, by the past few years, a lot of women just go, that's it, you know, this is my hair and I'm just gonna go with it. But I know that it's not common practice. Definitely. Yeah.

Helen: Still a long way to go then from my point of view, until it can be the norm for people to do it, and feel comfortable.

Caterina: Sure. Yeah, that's true. But you know, we are here to change things.

Helen: Indeed, right. I'm gonna change subjects. Now, obviously your style coach.

Caterina: Yeah.

Helen: Has what you wear changed since you went grey?

Caterina: Without going into deep talk about colour analysis and so on, going grey, it has changed a little bit the light, because before my hair was quite dark. So yes, it would've changed a little bit, the tone of my colours, before I could, and I still do because I'm quite single-minded and if I think, something I like, I just go with that. 

But maybe the colours that are best for me now would be a bit lighter, not as deep. So yes, to answer your question, colour of your hair would affect a little bit, you know, your overall, colouring if you want, when you wear clothes.

But I haven't made a massive, change on the colours. I wear what I like, which I know that at the end of the day they suit me, because of the job that I do or the business that, I do. But I always say to women, don't get hung up on colours, you know, wear what makes you feel good.

Helen: One of the concerns I hear from people who are thinking about going grey, or have gone grey, is that their hair washes them out. Any advice for them in terms of colours that might be good, or things that they should think about?

Caterina: Well then yeah, wear colours. Because I know, with the women that I work, there is a bit of, I say women, but it's for men as well. You know, they get scared of wearing colours somehow. And they think the black is the solution, which it isn't. Because it does the opposite. Unless you are in this colour season that, you know, black is your colour. 

So, my advice is wear, I don't want to say bright colours, because that is not correct. But wear colours, you know, if you think that grey washes you out, wear colours that make you look good and, you know, healthy because colours do that as well. 

Don't be scared, if you worried of that. Counteract the idea that going grey, you kind of ageing with some funky clothes. Not funky as in, you know, go silly. But help that transition with your clothes. So, you know, some colours. I can't be specific, Helen, on what type of colours, warm, cool. So, it wouldn't be right to do so.

But no, just go alright I'm going grey, maybe I'll go and understand what my right colours are. Because I think if you are bold and brave to do that going grey, then you know, be brave in changing as well, what you wear with maybe using more colours. Absolutely.

Helen: Yeah, it gives you license to have a bit of fun.

Caterina: Absolutely. Oh yes, definitely. It should be, it should be that. Yeah.

Helen: So, you'll be proud of me because I've never worn black. Black just makes me look like I died because I'm way too pale.

Caterina: And, you know, I'm not against black by the way, but colour is good.

Helen: Quite a few of the people that I've interviewed have started wearing brighter colour lipsticks since they went grey. Any thoughts on that?

Caterina: Okay. So, funnily enough, when I was in Poland, I used to wear this red lipstick, a lot. I think it was my signature then, which I loved. I don't know if it was because of that, or maybe it was a mixture of, you know.

But for me it was like, it's a new place. And it was the beginning of my styling journey as business owner and, you know, personal stylist. So, I was really having fun with what was wearing. And I was wearing, you know, red lipstick. Which I don't do a lot now. But it's phase, you know, in life we have phases, and if someone is going grey and they want to wear bright lipsticks. Yes, why not? 

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting a bit more makeup, to say, okay, I'm going grey, but you know, I'm still fun, and I still look great. I'm not old. So maybe, I did as well wear more makeup. 

Now, I'm in a phase in my life where I do accept myself much more for who I am. You know, my age, my hair, where I am in my life. So again, it's journey, as you go through, things happen and change as well.

Helen: Are you doing anything to age healthily? So, in terms of food and exercise and that kind of thing?

Caterina: Food wise, more than exercise, I must admit. I enjoy cooking. My husband does as well, so we try to cook our own meals. as much as we can use organic, fruits and vegetables and everything else really. I'm into what is good for my body. So, you know, it's having varied my diet as well.

Exercise wise, I'm a bit lazy. I mean, someone would argue, you know, don't say lazy. I do like moving, I like walking. Walking is something that I enjoy. And when I can, I go for walks, in the morning, 

I'm starting playing squash with my husband again, just to do something together, that doesn't involve kids, all the time.

But yeah, I know that it's important, you know, to look after my body as well. Because it is not necessarily to keep young in the sense, but I'd like to, to be fair, to live as long as possible and be with my kids for longer. 

Helen: Yeah.

Caterina: Absolutely. Yeah.

Helen: Coming back to your hair, do you use a special shampoo and conditioner?

Caterina: Not specifically for grey hair. I've been obsessed with product for curls for a while, because there is this methodology of curly hair. And when I discovered that, for a long time I was like obsessed, in the sense of, you know, what conditioner to use, and so on. 

So now I use a couple of products. I'm not crazy on, using too many things And I try to be as sustainable as possible as well on what we may have. But it's nothing specific like a purple shampoo and things like that. 

I've considered, but then I'm like, ah, my hair looks good, so I don't think I need anything to enhance. Maybe there is something out there. I haven't really researched, and I'm happy with what I'm using, so, yeah.

Helen: I'm the same as you. I've never used a purple shampoo.

Caterina: Yeah, it's also because I'm a bit like, I don't want to use too many chemicals. I feel I'm quite good all over, cleaning product, and, what I use to wash, you know, clothes.

So yeah, unless I find something that is clean, but I don't think I need it anyway, so I'm happy that way.

Helen: Cool. One last question, if someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice and tips would you have for them?

Caterina: I would be very encouraging for sure. I don't think there is one solution for everyone. As I say, I went grey and I didn't have a line. I think that is the more difficult part. But I would say, you know, just embrace it, and really remember why you're doing that. 

Because that will keep you going, even when you look at yourself in the mirror and you go, oh God, I don't like what I see. But then, when we think, I don't like what I see, is it because of the conditioning, you know, that we have from the outside world? 

And, you know, again, it's hair. I always think just cut it short for example. And I say just again, you know, it's easy to say. But hair grow, you know, hair grow back.

For me it's just go for it, think about why you're doing that. It'll be rewarding. And then again, if you don't like it, you go back and dye. It's easy sometimes we really complicate things, but it can be very, very easy.

Helen: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, thanks so much for joining me. You've been fascinating to chat to.

Caterina: Thank you so much. A was wonderful to speak to you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.