Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Tanya Spencer, the FCK being stuck Coach, leadership communication for Women in male heavy spaces. Former global Security advisor for several NGOs, and author of two books on personal security for travellers. 

Good afternoon, Tanya. How are you?

Tanya: Hi Helen. How are you?

Helen: I'm good actually. It's lovely and sunny here. I dunno what it's like with you?

Tanya: Denmark is sunny for once. Yes.

Helen: It’s a bit like the North of England, we have to celebrate when we have sunshine too.

Tanya: Yeah.

Helen: Anyway, I'm gonna start by asking you, what your hair was like when you were a child?

Tanya: Ooh. So curly that it caused a lot of conflicts between my mother and myself.

Helen: And was it long or short?

Tanya: More like a Afro. So, if you pulled it out it would be long. But the curl, I have super tight curls, 

Helen: Yeah.

Tanya: So, it always had that kind of Afro. I was also a child of the seventies, so my Afro was in.

Helen: You definitely picked the right decade.

Tanya: Yeah. I still wear these Mickey Mouse ears even to this day, five decades later, wear two big ponytails that are just more like a puff. 

Helen: Yeah.

Tanya: So, a lot of people when they see me, they say that I look like Mini Mouse.  

Helen: was your hair Dark Brown? Black.

Tanya: Brown. 

Helen: And can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Tanya: In my forties. To be honest, it did not bother me. But my then husband would always wanna cut it out. 'cause it was a little bit down from my temple, and he was like, oh, can I cut it? Can I cut it? And I was like, what are you talking about? So, I hadn't really noticed, and I didn't care, but I had this person who wanted to cut it all the time.

Helen: Did you end up colouring it?

Tanya: No, never. There was one time in my life, but that was when I was younger, and I tried to be a punk, and I dyed my hair black. People thought I just looked natural, so that didn't really work for me.

Helen: Not a very dramatic change then?

Tanya: No, and I wasn't really appreciated by the punks. I was too happy, so that didn't work.

Helen: With your hair then and the grey, you just gradually let it come in?

Tanya: I'm one of these people that truly believe there is nothing I can do about the march of time, so I can't get my knickers and a twist over it. Wrinkles will happen, grey hair will happen, but so does, knowledge and wisdom, so I'm fine with it.

Helen: Did you always feel that way?

Tanya: Actually, I kind of wanted grey hair, or at least to look distinguished. Because when I used to work first in peace and human rights, then later on in security, it's a very male dominated space. A lot of like older men space, politicians, and warlords, and army, and things like this. 

And, they saw this young girl, and I'm a very energetic person. And so, they would look at me like, oh, this young girl, who is she, talking about, you know, the security, or the peace, or whatever. And I wanted grey hair to look distinguished and look, older, wiser, cooler. So, I thought it was a cool thing to have a bit of grey.

Helen: So, you'd be taken more seriously?

Tanya: Yeah.

Helen: How many years did it take to get as grey as it is today?

Tanya: At least the last 15 years. I was in the media quite a lot back in my early forties because of my global security work. So, I have a lot of media pictures, in women's magazines, and I didn't have grey hair then. 

Yeah, really in the last 15 years. And then it kind of went really fast in the last like five or so years.

Helen: And it just kind of spread out from that initial patch. Did it?

Tanya: Yeah, that one hair grew too many, and now it's mainly grey. And I really don't notice or care about these things, but I have a teenager who constantly reminds me that I am grey. And I think he thinks it's a good way to tease mommy, you know?

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Tanya: Ah, you're so grey. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it has no effect on me because I'm like, so what's your point?

it is what it is and I'm not one of these that's gonna try to change it. I am who I am. 

Helen: I think that's a great attitude to have.

Tanya: Did you dye?

Helen: Did I, oh yeah. I dyed mine for about 25 years. It was bleach blonde. It’s weird really, because eI started getting grey hair when I was 18, just a little bit at the front. Again, like you really didn't bother me. 

Then I broke up with my first husband, and I started dating another guy in my early thirties. And his mother was appalled by this grey patch, just absolutely appalled. And he offered to pay for me to have highlights, and I very stupidly said yes.

I look back now and go, that kind of tells you that confidence obviously wasn't a good level at that point in my life.

Tanya: And also, just accepting you for who you are.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get on with her at all anyway, so. But it set me on a road, and once you start having highlights, then you tend to end up just having more and more dye until you reach the point where you go, I'm not doing it anymore.

So, your hair now, is it nearly all white?

Tanya: I like to think of myself as salt and pepper-ish. It's not really silver, yet. I'm not completely silver yet. I'm working on it every day. I'm getting closer.

Helen: Yeah, we all say that. What do you do to look after it? Are you using special shampoos and conditioners?

Tanya: Oh, I'm not one to really use a lot of time, or energy, or money on my hair. I'm actually more concerned about the curliness of it.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Tanya: Because as a black woman, it being so curly. So, I already use chemicals to get my hair less curly. And my hair is so curly that even when I put the chemicals on, people can barely tell. But I'm like, ugh, you should see it without.

So, I don't wanna put more on, I don't wanna do more to it. Because I use those chemicals, then I do use conditioners and things like that and oil, because black hair, we lose oil very quickly, and so it can become quite dry and brittle. So, there is maintenance, but more because of the degree of curliness, than the colour.

Helen: Okay, so is that like a relaxant or something that you're putting on it?

Tanya: Yeah. And my sisters are trying to get me out of that, so I don't know what I'm gonna do next.

Helen: We chatted before, and I think you told me you were thinking about buying a wig?

Tanya: Oh, you're gonna mention that? Yes, I am. I am living for the day. I don't like the concept of a wig, and having something hot on top of my head, because like when I play tennis and things like that. 

But I wanna have hair that flows. I wanna be able to like shake my hair, and then it like actually moves. Where now, you know, the curls keep it in a permanent state. I want it to be a grey wig. I am definitely not going for any other, I want it to be really grey. I find so much power in that. 

And I don't know how I will actually fill with longer hair because I've never been able to grow out my hair. Because it's so curly. Right. It's again, always this curly factor. I'm imagining that, you know, hair that flows and moves. 'cause right now, whatever shape it has from my pillow, it will keep the shape. I will have pillow head for the whole day. If I lean up against something, you can see the shape of it and everything.

So, I really wanna try. But I don't like the concept of a wig. I don't like the idea of a hot thing on my head. But I wanna try something different. I wanna try hair that flows. I wanna try long hair. And I wanna try in my head I reach another kind of power for grey long hair.

Yes, I'm looking forward.

Helen: Just curious, do you think partly that's due to the fact that you live in Denmark, where you're surrounded by people with straight blonde hair?

Tanya: I think it's just in myself. I don't really look to outside sources that much. I think it's because I've had the same haircut for my whole life, more or less because my hair doesn't really grow past my shoulders. It becomes, too frayed. 

When you pull it out, it's past my shoulders, but it doesn't look like it's past my shoulders. I've just had the same haircut, more or less a few inches, a few centimetres, over the last couple decades. 

So, it's more like, oh, I wanna try something different. I wanna feel different about my hair. And then I can take it off, right? Because it will be a wig, so I can take it off, you know? I don't know if I'll play tennis with it on or whatever. I haven't reached that point. 

It's still a dream to have long, grey hair, and flowy.

Helen: What sort of reaction do you get from other people about your hair now? 

Tanya: It's funny around January, that's when I got the idea about the wig, and I had just made up my mind like, It's gonna be on my to-do list for this year. And right after, I got a compliment. I went to a dinner party and someone complimented my hair and she had beautiful salt and pepper, curly, long black and white hair. And, I was like, really? My hair? 

And then that night. We went to like a Ladies party, women, you know, thing. And went to town. I never go into town. We went to town, and I got so many compliments on my hair, and I was like, what is going on? Like the Universe must have heard me complaining about my hair, and then suddenly, or maybe 'cause I don't get out enough, suddenly all these people. 

Even at one point we had stepped out of the bar disco place, and some young teenage girls passed me by and complimented my hair and I was like, what is going on here? And since then, I've had so many compliments. Ever since I've made the decision to get a wig in the next couple months, I've been getting compliments on my hair, which is just so funny.

57 years. Once in a while someone will say, oh, your curls are quite nice, or your hair's quite nice, but like literally since January I get a lot of compliments, and it's only because I've made the decision to get a wig to change my hair.

Helen: And is it giving you second thoughts?

Tanya: It gave me a pause for about three seconds, but no, not longer than that. Because it is something that I wanna try. It's literally a wig. I can take it on, and I can pull it off again, you know? 

And I haven't gotten it yet. I really do wanna get a high quality one, so it will cost some money. I'm not in a rush, but I still wanna do it. It's for me. For nobody else but me.

Helen: And I think you told me you'd have to have your hair braided underneath it?

Tanya: Yeah.

Helen: Have you had it braided before?

Tanya: When I was younger, I’d sometimes braid it myself. But I think for the period of getting a wig, I think I'll get it professionally braided. So that it stays longer. And then also give my hair a chance to be chemical free for a longer period.

Helen: Yeah.

Tanya: 'Cause I've been using relaxers for many, many, many years. And even though, like I said, people don't notice that I put a relaxer on. I know that it's less curly when I do. And I know that I do use it every three months for the last many decades. I would like to give my hair a chance to feel something else.

Helen: Yeah.

Tanya: Like give my hair rights. I don't know if that's a thing. But it’s a thing, you know?

Helen: You're in Denmark. is it normal for women in Denmark just to let their hair go grey, or do they tend to dye it a lot like we do in the UK and the US?

Tanya: Actually, I don't know, because all of my friends are blonde. And so, when I ask, they're like, Ooh, they don't think about it. So, nobody I know thinks about it. They're already so blonde, like they're not greying, so they're not thinking about it. And I don't know anyone without blonde hair.

Helen: Okay. So, they're just basically going pale or blonde as their white hairs come in?

Tanya: Yeah. But a lot of them, you can't really see it. Some are going pale or blonde, but no, it hasn't been an issue. The people I know it's not even relevant for them. 

I guessed that you might ask something about Denmark. And so, I asked around and they were just like, uh, what? You know, no. That's weird. If I knew some brown-haired people maybe, but I don't. Which says a lot about Denmark, right?

Helen: Have you still got friends and family in the US?

Tanya: Yeah.

Helen: Have they gone grey?

Tanya: My sisters are quite a bit younger than me, so no, not yet.

Helen: Do you think they will, or do you think they'll dye it?

Tanya: I think they will want to dye it. Because three of my sisters are quite into their looks, and trying to do a lot, and talking about age in ways that I just never understood. So, they probably will. But quite a few of them have like good intentions, but don't really follow through.

So, whether or not they actually, you know, do the dyeing, and go to the salon, and do all the things that actually, you know, maintain it. That's another thing. So maybe they have good ideas,

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Tanya: But let's see. It's kind of like braiding. I'm just going off of the braiding, right? They were telling me that I should get away from using chemicals. And they're like, oh, braid your hair. And I'm like, I've never seen your hair braided. Oh, that's because it's so expensive to go to the salon. I'm like, okay.

So, you know, they might have a good idea. But let's see if they do it. It takes a lot of maintenance, doesn't it to keep the greys away? And

Helen: Yeah.

Tanya: make appointments

Helen: People are doing it four or five weeks normally, sometimes more.

Tanya: What?

Helen:  If it's really obvious.

Tanya: Oh, I would hate that.

Helen: Are you doing anything to age well, in terms of your health, so things like exercise and nutrition?

Tanya: In general, I've always taken care to have a healthy diet. I don't eat processed food, except for Friday and Saturday. That's the days that I allow myself to have a bit of something that's a bit more processed. I'm typically very healthy on other days. And a lot of times I'm vegetarian or vegan most days of the week.

I exercise quite a lot. I've gotten out of it, in the last say, year, and I do find it harder to get back to it. And I'm not used to this. But normally I would exercise around 15 to 20 hours a week. Now I'm down to like one or two. I am quite aware that this is not the habit that I want to keep up.

I like playing tennis. I like going to dance. I like going to the gym. So, in general, I do like to take care of myself. But I'm not one that uses a lot of special creams, or follows fads, or trends or anything like that. I'm not that type of healthy person.

I'm not, reading magazines and knowing what is in or whatever. I'm not that person. But I do like to exercise and to eat healthily.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. 

Tanya: Yes.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice or tips for them?

Tanya: Well, going after my true-blue belief that it's gonna happen anyway. So why fight it? Like why use the mental energy on feeling bad about going grey? It is a natural part of life. You're at different stages of your life. And that's okay. It should be celebrated.

Helen: I think that's a great attitude to have.

Tanya: Yeah.

Helen: Yeah. Well in that case, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been lovely chatting to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Tanya: Thank you. Thank you. You too.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.