Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Karen Hands, a transformational coach, working mostly with women to help them, bring more of themselves to their work and life. She began her career as a chemical engineer before finding her voice as a coach, facilitator, speaker, and entrepreneur. 

She believes that the world needs more female leaders right now, research shows that women prefer a transformational style, and is playing a small part in making that happen. 

Good afternoon, Karen, how are you?

Karen: I'm very well, thank you. It's lovely to be on the podcast with you Helen.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you, what your hair was like when you were a child?

Karen: Interesting, because as you're looking at me now, I have mostly quite dark hair, but with some flecks of grey in there. And it has always been this colour, I would say it has always been dark, so, that is where I started. 

I am just picturing a photograph that my parents had taken of me with a koala bear that I used to have as my toy, cuddly toy as a child. And yeah, very dark hair in that photograph.

Helen: You have long hair now. Was it always long when you were a child?

Karen: It was actually, I had a phase in the middle where it was cut short and then the Pandemic just, you know, put, paid to all of that, and I grew it out again. And I've just kept it long since then.

Helen: And when you grew up, would you say you were a bit of a tomboy or were you quite a girly girl?

Karen: Interesting. Well, as somebody who chose engineering, I guess I wasn't a very girly girl. I'm not entirely sure that tomboy fitted me either. I mean, I was a bit outdoorsy. I used to enjoy horse riding, and things like that. But I was also quite studious to be honest. So, I probably didn't get my hands dirty very often.

Helen: Was your image important to you? So, you like your hair and your clothes as you were growing up?

Karen: Oh gosh. I mean, you go through that phase, don't you, with a huge amount of peer pressure from childhood friends. And especially going into secondary school, and that whole phase where everything's changing, and people are starting to look at you and everybody's commenting. 

But I think even from that age, I always found that to be a bit superficial, and I wasn't very interested in it, to be honest. I mean, sure I did follow, you know, some friends' ideas around fashion and things. But I used to a little bit regret it when I did, because it was never quite me.

Helen: Did you ever experiment with your hair?

Karen: Yeah, that was one of the things that I suppose I got, persuaded to try, and I had to go with henna.

Helen: Okay.

Karen: I have very dark hair. I have very pale skin, and actually the henna A) didn't really have much effect, and B) what it did was to make it more red, which just brought out the red in my face. 

So, you know, it was one of those things where I think I'd sort of found myself being led down a path, a little bit not sure, and thinking well, I should go along with these things. 

And really, I suppose that was one of those situations where I thought, no, just plough your own furrow, Karen. You know, this isn't for you. So, I didn't experiment any further with hair colour after that.

Helen: Fair enough. You actually did more than me. I didn't colour of mine at all until I was in my thirties. 

Karen: Right.

Helen: So, my next question for you is, when did you find your first grey hairs? Can you remember?

Karen: I can't actually remember, but I’m guessing that it might have been sort of late teen years, maybe even at University. I can't quite picture it, but I was a bit horrified.

Helen: And did you pull any of them out?

Karen: I did when it was just the odd one, I did. And then, once it started to be more than the odd one, I thought this is silly, and I sort of stopped and had a chat with myself. 

About on the one hand, being quite frustrated as a young woman, trying to pursue a serious scientific technical career, wanting to be taken seriously for that. And yet, finding myself needing to somehow match some image, beauty standards, and thinking that the grey hairs didn't fit with that. 

And realizing that, of course they did. If I wanted to be taken seriously, one of the challenges was that I looked young, and so if the grey hairs suggested that I was a bit older, then actually that was good.

Helen: Okay, so used logic to work your way around it then.

Karen: Yeah, I think I did. Yes. Being a bit rational about it. And realizing that if I'm not going to be taken seriously because I look young, then actually I have to look a bit older.

Helen: So, on the other side of that, where would you say the influences on you were, in terms of the thought initially that the grey hairs were a bad thing? Were they from friends, from the media?

Karen: No, it’s funny, I just remember, as children Mum asking us to help her get rid of the greys in her hair. 

Helen: Okay, so your mum dyed her hair?

Karen: No, she didn't. She didn't, dye her hair. But she did used to get the grey hairs coming, and for a long time she was plucking them out.

Helen: Okay. And she got you to help with that. Wow.

Karen: She did the ones she couldn't see.

Helen: And how long did she do that for?

Karen: Oh. I'm picturing us in the house that I grew up in. And I would say I don't think we were doing that by the time I got to secondary school age, but it had been a feature of my earlier life, definitely.

Helen: I can honestly say that didn't happen for me. But then my Mum is very dark, like Harry Potter colouring. And she didn't go grey until she was well into her forties.

Karen: Okay.

Helen: So, her colouring's very different to mine 'cause I was white blonde when I was little.

Karen: Okay.

Helen: I had found my first grey hair at 18, so.

Karen: Yes.

Helen: Similar to you. So, over the years, have you felt any pressure to colour your hair, and try and look younger?

Karen: Um. No, I don’t think I have. I'm trying to think. I mean, certainly when I started doing as an entrepreneur, going to business network events, I noticed that I was probably the only woman in the room who wasn't colouring their hair. But that didn't persuade me that I needed to be doing so. 

I would say that really throughout my career, you know, I've always wanted to look more mature, than I was in a way. You know, it's funny, I read something, an interview with Meryl Streep, and she had said in her youth she always wanted to be 40. And you don't often see that. And, I suppose I sort of latched onto that in my, I dunno, early twenties probably.

And thought, yeah, you know, I want the seriousness. I want the credibility that comes with looking that bit older. That people will actually listen to me. Now, there's an argument that says grey hair doesn't make the difference between people listening to you and not. 

But equally, we do have this real strong view that women should look younger. And really feel very strongly against that, because as a coach, as an entrepreneur, I am what I sell, and that experience is hard won. And I want to wear it.

Helen: Which is why you feel comfortable with your grey hair.

Karen: Yeah, absolutely. And it's been quite funny because as an engineer by background, you know, I still bump into some women who began their career as engineers as well. And I don't think any of us dye our hair. So, I suppose there's an element of, actually some of my closer associates don't dye their hair. So, where would the pressure come from anyway? 

But that's been really interesting because then I work, and everybody's got dyed hair. But I found myself working for a charity, a few years ago, in a consultancy role. And interestingly, the Chief Executive at one point decided that she would have her hair shaved, and that she would just come back grey.

And I did wonder if there was an element of her, seeing that it wasn't such a bad thing. I'll never know, but I didn't ask her. But it seemed to be very brave. And, maybe I helped to give her permission to do it.

Helen: I hope you did. Actually, it's interesting, I'm literally in the process of editing another podcast with a guest who also never dyed her hair. And she also worked in male dominated environments. 

She worked for NGOs on security. So, she was talking to like politicians. High up army officials, warlords, those sorts of things, and she was wanting the grey hair to be taken a bit more seriously. She thought it added credibility. 

Karen: Same reason really. 

Helen: Yeah. 

Karen: Slightly different environment. Also, the thing about working in very masculine environments is, I didn't want to be aligned with women who presented themselves to be looked at. I wasn't there to be looked at. I was there to be listened to. You know, I didn't want any confusion there, about why I was there.

Helen: Okay. And that's an interesting way to look at it. But, I can absolutely understand. I can remember when I was young, working with a girl who was really, really pretty. She was also really, really clever. But she really struggled to be taken seriously, by the guys, 'cause they were just all the time looking at her, and saying how pretty she was.

And it was just like, really. Get a grip.

Karen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, those were the days with all the, you know, page three pinups in all the offices that you walked into. And, you know, it was just trying to draw a line and say, look, you know, that's not me. You know how successful it was, but I didn't have much choice.

Helen: Okay. So, another question for you. Traditionally when women go grey, they're sort of encouraged to have their hair cut short. Neither you nor I have done that. Have you got any thoughts on why you have long hair?

Karen: Interesting. Found it quite freeing just to go back to long hair which, you know, that's how it was as a child. And I mean, there's loads of advantages to having it long, you know, I used to have to wash it two, three times a week when it was short. Whereas, you know, this is once a week, which is fantastic. It's so time saving.

I don't need to worry if I've slept on it wrong, or any of those things. We still have a bit of consciousness of how we look. It's just been so much easier to manage. I think I'd forgotten about that until it grew out, and then I thought, oh, actually I'm just going to keep going with this. 

And I mean, whether that now makes people look twice as to, well, how old is she? I'm not sure. I've got my due credit for my experience and you know, whether I'm 50, 60, or 70, so what really?

Helen: But you're planning to keep it long?

Karen: I think so. For now, yes, definitely. You have so many options with being able to tie it back. So, I don't feel that it's a problem. And not only that, you know, I'm much more comfortable with it like this actually.

Helen: You don't have to cut nearly as often either.

Karen: No. No. I think three times a year is my trip to the hairdressers. So that's save as well, you know, time, money, and actually it’s just easier.

Helen: I'm pretty similar, I go every three months or so. I used to have mine bleached, so it was very dry, and brittle on the ends. And now it's just in much, much better condition. So, life's a lot easier.

Karen: Yes, so, I don't have that comparison, and I do notice that it is ageing, but, nevertheless, it serves me well.

Helen: Which brings me onto another question. How do you feel about ageing and what are you doing to age healthily?

Karen: Okay. How I feel about ageing? It's inevitable. I want to be sure that I do things right at this stage, so as to set myself up, fingers crossed, for a healthy, older age. You know, we don't know what's around the corner, but I eat pretty healthily. 

I make sure I get out. Some days my work means I'm staring at the computer screen a lot, but I still make sure I either get out in the garden, or I get out for a walk. I do quite a bit of cycling. I'm really enjoying, discovering the coast path really. I only moved up to Northumberland a couple of years ago, so that is all still to discover.

 And just try to make sure I keep that balance. You know, the work is important to me, but equally there is a balance. And I have other interests that I want to make time for.

Helen: Which is a very sensible attitude. I still have ambitions. I still wanna run a 25-minute Parkrun. And I would like to be able to deadlift my weight, so.

Karen: Oh gosh.

Helen: We'll see if it actually happens. 

Karen: Good luck.

Helen: And I was 60 last month, so.

Karen: Well done. It is good to have these ambitions, I must admit. But health-wise, actually for me it's being sensible and making sure that actually I just fit something into the schedule all of the time. Go for longer walks, or cycle rides when I can.

Helen: More superficial question now then, would you say your style has changed? With your long grey hair, in terms of the things you wear, and your makeup, and that kind of thing.

Karen: Well, I mean, lots of things changed with the Pandemic when I was growing my hair out. I think it's given us permission online, to just be ourselves. And most of my work is online. Therefore, I've never had a habit of thinking, oh, I need to put makeup on for people to see me on screen. 

And so, I mean, we met at a business networking event and those are, you know, very rare occurrences in my diary these days. And I think, oh, you know, I should get dressed up. I should put something on. But, but it's always a case of, well, what's in the wardrobe still. 

So, I wouldn't say my style has changed massively, but I think my opportunities to wear some of the fancier business wear and so on, are really diminishingly small these days.

Helen: Again, I can absolutely understand that. One of my challenges is having had 20, 30 years of working in an office, and being very conditioned to buying certain styles of clothes. Now when I look at them, I still think, oh, that's nice. And then I go, yeah, but when am I ever gonna wear that? I should just be buying the jeans, and the t-shirts, and sweatshirts 'cause that's what I actually wear.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah, I know. And as you say, it is conditioning. And every now and again, I need to spend a few nights in Oxford or something, and I think, oh God, you know, I'm gonna need changes of tops, and changes of this, and changes of that. So, the wardrobe still contains quite a few options of things. But, it's diminishingly small numbers of occasions when I actually wear them.

Helen: Yeah, exactly like me. I'm nearly always on either activewear, or something pretty casual.

Karen: Yes. And you see that sort of sense of balance I think comes through even in my working day because, you know, I've got a podcast now, I've got an appointment later on this afternoon. But, I'll probably just go and take a cup of tea into the garden, and the idea of being dressed up for work, you know, it's just crazy.

When I'm in the garden, I'll be spotting a few weeds because there's always weeds. And it's just a case of mixing and matching through the day, and I really like that.

Helen: Cool. Okay. I'm gonna ask you one last question then. So, if someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice or tips would you have for them?

Karen: I would absolutely encourage them. I mean, you know, I haven't had this situation where I’ve had to grow anything out. But I suppose just think carefully about, if appearance matters to you, you know, how are you going to go through that transition phase? 

As I say, my CEO few years ago, she just had it all cut off and started again. And she was in a position where she felt she could do that.

So, I suppose, you know, it's that whole phase of, you know, once you are through and into this new world. Then, you’re going to be yourself, only 10 times better. But there is that little bit of a space, where it's all going through change, where you might have doubts. And stick with it. But just plan for that.

Helen: I mean, there are lots of different ways to go grey. Obviously, you're talking about someone who shaved their hair. A lot of people go for a pixie cut. 

I had the line. Which I hated. But I had it until my hair was at a length where I felt comfortable cutting it to, 'cause I haven't had short hair since my twenties, and I don't want it again.

Some people go grey blending. Some people go to hairdressers and have all the colour stripped out. And they're there for like eight hours to have the colour stripped out. 

Karen: Wow.

Helen: There are lots of options. But I think it's just a case of picking the one that you feel comfortable with. That you can't live through.

Karen: Absolutely.

Helen: But I think pretty much everyone that I've spoken to has said afterwards they feel much freer. They feel much more self-confident because, they're more themselves.

Karen: Yeah, completely. And I'm just remembering growing out my short hair, when I couldn't get a hairdressing appointment in the Pandemic. And you know, there were phases where it was just the wrong length. I couldn't quite tie it back, and all of this sort of thing. 

And, I'm guessing that, this kind of transition, you know, it's just something you go through. And some of it you think, oh, this is so annoying. But hair grows. It doesn't take that long.

Helen: Yeah. And it's not as if it's gonna be the first time in your life you've had a bad hair day.

Karen: Well, exactly.

Helen: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Karen: Thank you so much.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.