Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm joined by Anne Marie Soulsy. She's a sustainability coach and trainer who helps individuals and organizations develop practical responses to the Climate Crisis. With a background in environmental science and community leadership, she specializes in mind shifts, behavioural change, and turning ambition into impactful action.

Hello, Anna Marie. How are you?

Anne Marie: I'm very well, Helen. Thanks very much. How are you?

Helen: I'm all right. I am having a bit of a day, but sometimes you do.

Anne Marie: This is it, isn't it? Yeah.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child.

Anne Marie: Oh, well, I was, always inspired by the Abba song, you know, The Girl with Golden Hair. So, I had long blonde hair that everybody loved. And yeah, I was quite tall as well, so it was even longer. I often had it like plaits, or used to sort of put rags in it to curl it, because this was before curling tongs were a thing.

Yeah, so I had, long blonde hair when I was a youngster.

Helen: Would you say it was an important part of your identity when you were younger?

Anne Marie: Well, I always say to people that you wear your hair every day, right? So, you know, it can make such a statement whether, you know, you've got long hair, where you've cut it short, what colour it is, whether it's curly, you know, poker straight or punk in the Mohican. You know, it can give a lot of identity to people.

I would say that I do value my hair. And then, yeah, you know, you do cut it off to make a statement. I'm not necessarily think it defined me per se.

Helen: So, you weren't the, the little girl with the long blonde hair?

Anne Marie: I was a little girl with the long blonde hair, but I was also a lot of other things as well. I was the person that always asked why. Which is why I, you know, ended up studying science. I was the person that, always did a homework. I was quite studious as well, so, you know, I was much, much more beyond the blonde hair.

And also then, when I was about nine, somebody else joined my school, who also was the tall person with the long blonde hair. So, there was two of us. So, I was only unique up until about the age of sort of eight or nine at that point.

Helen: Did you in your teens experiment with your hair at all?

Anne Marie: Oh yes. So, after the long blonde hair sort of scenario, being a sort of moody teenager, I did want to cut it off and then die all black. Which I did attempt to do. Didn't realize that that's not exactly, as easy as what it looks like in the adverts, you know, you just plunk it on and suddenly you’re jet black.

So, I came out actually, ironically grey, and then was traumatized, to think that I might have to go to school with grey hair at the age of sort of 15, 16. So, I went to the hairdressers at the end of the road, and she suggested to use Palm Olive Shampoo it was like one of the stronger ones, to try and wash it out.

So yeah, I did sort of like go down the dark route. And then quite quickly, wanted to become even blonder. So, I used things like, you know, that Sun In stuff, and then tried to use lemon, all sorts of alternatives to bleach it. So yeah, so I did experiment quite a bit with that kind of thing in the late Eighties, should we say.

Helen: And then did you end up having it dyed permanently a bit later?

Anne Marie: Yeah, so I started doing highlights. I kind of was like very much into it being very blonde. Then I did go dark, with professional help though. So, I did have a period where it was like dark chocolate brown. And then went back to being blonde again. 

And then, went through a phase of sort of having pink and purple hair as well when I was in my mid-forties sort of having a bit of a colour revival at that point.

Helen: So, you always had a bit of fun with your hair then?

Anne Marie: Yeah, as much as I can. I mean, I lived in Africa for seven years, so, you know, we didn't have always the access to amazing opportunities. If you are in the middle of the bush with no water, no electricity, there's no hairdresser either. 

But yeah, just trying to keep up to date with things relatively. Be appropriate for work. I used to have what my Mum called a proper job, so I worked in a large multinational corporation. So, you have to have a certain appearance, well, you did have to have a certain appearance, I guess, at those points then for meetings. 

So, yeah, there's always been a bit of a professional edge. You have to work with your environment and your circumstances as well, right?

Helen: Can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Anne Marie: Yes, I was horrified. I think I was only about sort of like 25, 26. And I just didn't think that kind of thing happened to people that young. I just didn't think it was sort of like real. 

I think I only had like about two or three and I was like on a mission of finding them, and getting rid of them if I ever saw them. Then it got to the point where I was like, no, that's not gonna work Is it really? But dyeing it kind of kept it under control. 

I remember telling my Mum and she was like, oh, you know, like I went grey much earlier than that. So, I was like, well, thanks for not telling me. Basically, I was unprepared for it. 

I have quite a sort of defined white streak here. And that was the first bit 

Helen: Yeah, at the front.

Anne Marie: that was really kind of like starting to, make itself quite prominent and quite known. It did become increasingly evident if I was dyeing my hair, that it wouldn't take much growth to show the white patch. So, yeah, it was difficult to stay on top of.

Helen: So, part of the dyeing was to cover the grey?

Anne Marie: Part of it was. Originally it was just for looks, and for so fashion, and for my own enjoyment, shall we say. But then increasingly, as life continues, the grey cover-up was an added bonus, at that point.

Helen: Okay. What was the catalyst for you deciding to stop dyeing your hair?

Anne Marie: Wow, this is it. So, it was a combination of a few things. Lockdown our favourite friend for changing people's lives. It was time where I was getting really heavily into, all the sustainable options that are available, and trying to really push the limits. 

And, one of those is about not using chemicals. Hair dye has an extraordinary range of things in there that even as a scientist myself, I have no idea where they come from, how they're made and what harm they do, because there's just so many. 

And it's quite difficult to rationalize being, you know, somebody who minimizes, environmental impact, and then uses something that's incredibly harmful. Just to change the colour of my hair, and wash it down the sink. So, there was that. 

It was an opportunity to be able to grow it out, grow out the colour with, minimum, people looking at it, 'cause everybody was locked in doors. 

That personal journey into deepening my sustainability options. And also saving money. 'cause, you know, things have got incredibly expensive, and saves a good chunk every sort of five to six weeks of not having to book that in all the time.

Helen: And time as well, because obviously several hours sat in the salon having it coloured.

Anne Marie: I've been really lucky I've had really, really great hairdressers. With my first hairdresser, Carla a South African in London. And then, I had a wonderful Polish lady in Balham. Then I had another South African guy when I was in Tanzania. And now, with Laura, my local hairdresser.

I love going to the salon. It's like a real treat, and we have a really good chat. The time, I don't mind so much. But yes, it's more convenient to not have to do the whole three hours each time.

Helen: So, in terms of the grow out itself, did you just go cold turkey and have the line?

Anne Marie: I just went cold turkey. Yeah. I mean, luckily, I had been sort of like a pinky-purple before, so like an aubergine-y colour. My hair it's got more of a brown colour anyway, coming through from the back. The grow out wasn't so bad, because that kind of colour tends to wash out anyway, and then leave it similar-ish to what I have.

So, grow out wasn't too severe. But it was best done when everybody was locked down. So, yeah. There were a few moments on Zoom where it was like, oh, this is looking not great. But many people weren't looking great during that time either.

Helen: I think there were a lot of us doing the grow out at that stage.

Anne Marie: Yeah, absolutely.

Helen: Your hair's quite long. Did you just keep the length when you were doing the grow out?

Anne Marie: At that point my hair was sort of around here, between chin and shoulder sort of like thing. It's grown a lot since then. But I just kept it sort of so that I could, you know, try and get rid of as much of the grow out as possible. So not too long. 

I'm allowed to get longer now that it's all natural.

Helen: I'm the same as you, shoulder length bob when I started growing it out. And then I at one point had a chin length bob with layers just to try and get rid of the colour.

Anne Marie: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Helen: 'cause you do reach a point of going, I'm fed up with this now, it needs to be gone.

Anne Marie: Yes. Yeah. And that's where my helpful hairdresser came in. 'cause she knows me, so she understands, and she's very accommodating, and very good at her job as well. Very, very good at her job. So yeah. Hats off to Laura.

Helen: And how do you feel about your grey hair now?

Anne Marie: It's a love hate relationship. It's one of those things where, you know, I'm really glad that there was like this sort of silver trend a few years ago, which has made it a lot more acceptable. 

Sometimes though, I do feel that it ages me more than my actual age. That can be something that I'm not necessarily super happy about. But again, yeah, it saves me time, it saves me money. It saves me kind of stressing out about the grow-in type situation. 

It makes me feel a lot better about my environmental impact because I know that there's not all of those toxins and, harmful products, going into the waterways. The products say that they're vegan. It just means that there's no animal products in the hair dye, and it hasn't been tested on animals. That doesn't mean that there isn't any plastics or any other pollutants in there. So, it does make me feel a lot easier to sleep at night without having caused that impact. 

But sometimes it's hard to coordinate a wardrobe. I mean, it's the same with like when I moved from blonde to that chocolate brown, I felt that there were some colours that I could wear that before that I couldn't wear with the new hair colour. And this is the same sort of thing.

 'cause again, I try to use as much of my existing wardrobe as possible. I like to keep being happy and excited about what I already have, not something new. So, to go in and find like a bright orange dress for the summer, and I'm like it doesn't quite go anymore. It's not always the best. 

But then at the same time, it's all about experiences in life. I think a lot of the time we've become a slave to, appearances. You know, from how dating apps work to filters on apps like Snapchat and things like that. 

I think being more in touch with who we are and reflecting our values, our purpose, our personality, that's who I want to represent. That's who I am. And I think that's where I'm sitting with at the moment about that. 

So yeah, some days it's great. Some days it's like, oh, I wish I could just be blue for a day. Do you know?

Helen: I would say get a wig, but in your case, that really doesn't work either.

Anne Marie: No, you can get natural hair wigs, which are often people from other countries, who've grown it long and then donated it. But I think that people who are undergoing cancer treatment, et cetera, they're people who probably deserve those wigs more than me. So, yeah.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you another question now, which will sound very shallow after that. How do you find the condition of your hair now that you're not dyeing it anymore?

Anne Marie: That's really interesting. So, the condition's definitely better. I tend to use things like, shampoo bars because of the no plastic element to it. But I found that, I don't really need to use the conditioning bars as much now. It's much easier to, especially now that I've got longer hair, to brush my hair after shampooing, even if I haven't used conditioner as well. 

So, I definitely think it feels healthier. I don't seem to have as many split ends. I don't need to kind of like necessarily go for a trim that often either as well. So, I definitely feel it's better that way.

Helen: Yeah, mine gets washed a lot less often as well. Mine gets washed about once a week now, whereas before it used to be every other day.

Anne Marie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel that, with the grey it for me personally, it's sometimes it does highlight, you know, if you haven't washed it for a couple of days. 'cause it kind of does sometimes, look a little bit greasy for me. But that's just my kind of paranoia probably about that.

Helen: Yeah, I don't really have that, but I'm older than you. I'm 60, so post-menopausal. So maybe there's less of that sort of thing happening anyway.

Anne Marie: I'm in the middle of all sorts of things. So yes, it could be like this, this week and then change next week because you know, all those things right at that time of, going crazy. Yeah.

Helen: Okay. And you've chosen to grow your hair since it's gone grey. Why did you do that? Any particular reason? 

Anne Marie: I don't think I've consciously really thought about it other than, there is a trend at the moment for having super, super long hair. And I just thought, oh, it'll be really nice to sort of have really long, thick. Like the grey version of, when you get people that have got like a lot of hair and it's quite glamorous. I just thought it would be quite nice to maybe just have the grey version of that.

So just trying again, just to still be trendy, or relevant, or in fashion, but keeping within the sort of the realms of the grey barnet, shall we say.

Helen: I just like it 'cause it's low maintenance. I think my hair's probably a similar length to yours, and obviously it spends a lot of time in ponytails and plaits and that kind of thing. Rather than down. Particularly 'cause I do sport, and go to the gym, and stuff.

Anne Marie: Once it gets to a certain length and you can put it in the ponytail, you can kind of like bounce along and it does kinda give you that feeling of being, again, like a school child. You know, sort of like that, feeling of skipping along, happy to go to school, and stuff like that. So, yeah. 

And it's a lot more versatile. I have an Air Styler, which is like a hairdryer that has different sort of attachments on the top so you can dry it straight, or dry it curled, et cetera. I do like things like that. Yeah.

Going to the salon still, and they say, what would you like? And I say, oh yeah, could you make it wavy? So I do like it when the young person comes along and he gets the tongs out and he makes it all beautiful for me. If only I could have that every day, Helen, you know, somebody was just my personal stylist, that would be great.

Helen: How did your friends and family react when you said you were gonna go grey?

Anne Marie: I didn't tell them. I just did it. I'm not that kind of person that announces anything, or gets their opinion. I think that they're quite used to me just doing bold stuff. You know, things like saying I'm gonna go and live in Africa, or I'm gonna go and travel around the world by myself. So going grey was probably least of their concerns in comparison to some of the other stuff that I've done.

I guess my sister, she used to work in the beauty departments at local department stores. So, she worked for a couple of the different makeup brands. She's got probably a different perspective on her choices. So, she still dyes her hair, for example. 

But she knows me well enough to say that, you know, this is totally up my street because it's very eco and, yeah, just very classic of me. I don't know, I feel sometimes a little bit of a rebel, because other people are still slave to the hair box. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, sometimes it's a bit like that. 

I am toying with kind of like just having this bit shaved off as well to kind of go a bit more punk with it. So, there's still opportunity to play up, and do things that are just as funky as, you know, some of the Gen Alphas out there. So yeah, never know you could see me on a Pin or on Insta one day, you know, with my rocking.

Helen: With your asymmetric hair.

Anne Marie: Yeah, exactly. You know, like, yeah. Showing the kids how it's done, right?

Helen: Cool. So, if someone was to come to you and say, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice would you have for them?

Anne Marie: The way that I approach coaching is very much to sort of have this understanding as to, what is the purpose behind that? What's your reasoning? You know, have you thought this through? What's the reality of this?

Are there any obstacles to doing it? What would you like as your outcome? How do you feel about it? You know, what's driving this from an emotional perspective as well? Is this a reaction? Sometimes people, you know, have like divorce parties and things that can come along at those times of life.

And just really to talk about all the benefits like we've mentioned today, but also some of the things that they may want to consider, going forward. You know, like I said about, sometimes your wardrobe doesn't quite work as well as what it used to. 

But definitely it's not as hard as you think. There's lots of compliments that I get from people who say, oh, I just love the colour of your hair, and you know, and all that kind of thing. 

Make sure you are doing it for a reason, because that helps you with the days where you think, oh, this is really tough. The grow out, or just sort of like, you know, dealing with the changes. So, make sure that that's something that you really want to, focus on as a goal. It motivates you. It helps you through those difficult times, and overcomes them.

And also just, you know, make sure you've got support of your friends and family as well. So that they can also help you with the transition. And connect with other people like we're doing Helen, you know, just sort of other people who've done it. Make sure you've got people there who you can hang out, with in the cool gang. 

Talk to your hairdresser. If you've got a decent hairdresser like I have, they will also A understand and B, help you through as well.

Helen: A good source of advice in terms of should you have a pixie cart? Do you wanna try blending the colour? All of those sorts of things, so that you can pick a route that's the most comfortable for you.

Anne Marie: Yeah.

Helen: I think anyone who does grow out has some days when you just look and go, I look a mess. But then, we all have bad hair days anyway. So, no change there.

Anne Marie: oh, absolutely. I've had it before. I used to have an undercut, so, you know, there's definitely times where you just have to kind of like stick a hat on for a bit or, you know, just sort of, yeah. Over winter's quite good when people are usually hibernating a lot as well, so yeah, pick some times.

Helen: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Anne Marie: Thanks, Helen. You too.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.