Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Liam Carr. He's been with Toni and Guy for 10 years, and leading the way as his Technical and Style Director for the last five. Hair is a hundred percent his thing, especially bold colours and total transformations.

Whether it's a fresh freestyle or a head turning new shade, Liam's all about making you feel your best and fiercest self. If it involves creativity, scissors, or a bit of sass, he's in his element. He's also the person who cuts my hair and who saw me through my grey hair transition, which is why he is on the show.

So, the first thing I'm gonna ask you is, you've chosen to go grey yourself.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: Why?

Liam: I think I first noticed a grey hair when I was like 17. Since then, I always had either highlights or a full head of bleach. Not because it was grey, but just that's the colour that I wanted to kind of be like highlight or like Nineties boy band vibes, which I'm totally given today in this tank top, I've just realized as looking in the camera.

Then I guess where I stopped doing that, when I got to like 26, 27. Then realized I had a fair few more grey hairs than what I did from the first two that I had when I was 17. And then, yeah, just went with it. It's never really bothered us too much, to be honest.

Helen: You're not tempted to dye it to cover the greys?

Liam: No. Whenever you colour your hair permanently, it always fades off to not a nice colour. It always fades off a little bit warmer, or a little bit brassier. And I think on a man, it's just not a great look, for me personally.

Helen: Do you think it's easier for men to go grey, than for women?

Liam: I guess there's a stigma out there that women like shouldn't go grey. There's a lot more women wanting to cover up the greys. It's seen as a thing of beauty, isn't it? Not having grey hair. 

Helen: I guess.

Liam: Well, it has been for 

Helen: yeah,

Liam: years and years and years, but I think it's definitely changing.

Helen: Yeah. I think it's more acceptable, or certainly has been more acceptable for a man to go grey,

Liam: Yeah. I guess,

Helen: than a woman.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: I think one of the things that kind of illustrates that as if you've seen pictures of George Clooney recently, where he dyed his hair for a part back to like a dark colour. 

Liam: Alright. 

Helen: And it really, really didn't suit him at all. It really sort of jarred, because it was so not what you're used to seeing. He's let it go back grey again now. You're now Googling to see if you can see pictures.

Liam: Do you know what I am? Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna have to have a look at this while on here.

Helen: Have you found anything?

Liam: Oh yeah. It's made him look like older almost hasn't it?

Helen: Yeah, I think it does. It's a really weird thing, 'cause, you're so used to seeing women with dyed hair.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: And men not so much. And I think the contrast that you see with him is really quite stark.

Liam: It's just a bit matte, isn't it? Yeah.

Helen: Not a good look.

Liam: No.

Helen: He's got rid of it now, and gone back.

Liam: Alright. Okay. Amazing.

Helen: Are you seeing your client's attitudes about going grey changing?

Liam: Absolutely. There's a lot more kind of natural lived in colours, is what it's generally all about now, especially with the younger generation, who's like working their way up to that age where they're starting to go grey. They're just not so bothered about it as what they used to be. 

20 year now I've been doing this almost. Back in the day when clients would be getting their first grey hairs, they'd be like, yes, get them covered. Get them covered. Whereas now when clients are getting them first grey hairs, they're like, oh yeah, totally fine. 

You see them getting like the odd few more around the hairline where they'll start kind of disguising it with baby lights, balayages, things like that, just so the growout’s a lot softer. But yeah, people just aren't as worried or bothered by it.

Helen: What about the people in their forties, fifties, and sixties who have gone down the colouring route? Are you seeing more of them going grey, or not?

Liam: Yeah, not as many as the younger generation. We have still got the fair few who are in every kind of religiously six, well, some, some even four weeks, four to six weeks getting the roots covered up. It takes a lot for them to want to kinda grow it out. 

We have a few who's tie in with the idea, but never actually give in and do it. Which is good for me 'cause it means I still make me money too. The odd couple that have grown out and have kind of gone grey, you could never imagine them with colour on the hair again. I mean, George Clooney's a prime example of it, what we've just seen in that photograph, so yeah.

Helen: Do you think there was like a big sort of bulge of people going grey in Lockdown, and then it slowed down again?

Liam: Yeah. I think where people couldn't get the colours done, definitely. I just think attitudes towards having a colour changed as well. Like feeling like you needed it done. Think when it's being drilled in to you that religiously every six weeks you go get your colour done. It becomes more of a habit as well, doesn't it? I think Lockdown definitely broke the habit. 

And then you've got people who would never put a home colour on, which I absolutely love them 'cause you make my job a lot easier. So, thanks for not doing that. But then, I think it just got so long where people were like, oh, do you know what I'm gonna go with this. Like you, you were a prime example of that.

Helen: Yeah, I think I'd been talking about it for a couple of years beforehand.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: And then when Lockdown actually happened, it was like, yeah, I'm doing it.

Liam: Yeah. But your hair's amazing now.

Helen: Thank you. It's very long.

Liam: Lovely.

Helen: So, if a woman came to you and said she was thinking about going grey, what advice would you have for her? What do you think she should be thinking about?

Liam: it just all depends on how much grey they've actually got there. So, what I was just talking about earlier, when people have been colouring the roots every six weeks religiously for 15 year, they think the grey hair under there is huge.

But then actually when they do grow it out, they're like, I'm so dark, like naturally still. But it's because you're getting such a dark colour painted on your roots that they look so light. 

So ,we would just have a consultation, and go in with that as aspect of it, and see. Because some people are like, oh, should I start going lighter? And I'm like, if you go lighter, you're gonna have dark roots, 'cause you're actually predominantly still pretty dark

Helen: Uh-huh.

Liam: It would just depend on the client that's in front of you really. 

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: Me only advice would be to do it safely. And make sure you've got some pretty good treatments to put on your hair if you're thinking about the stripping it out route, or grey blending.

Helen: Which will come on to in a minute. I was gonna say, for me, I was really surprised at how striping my hair was. Because I'd been so fixated on the very white bit at the front, which was the main roots that I saw, 'cause it was the front of my hair.

Liam: Yes.

Helen: And then when it actually grew out, it's quite stripy. Underneath it's very white, but the top’s still quite brown.

Liam: Unfortunately for all of us, the melatonin stops producing around the front hairline first. So that's where you do generally lose it from round your hairline first where you can see, which is not so good. I think when you're just looking at that bit, that is all you get and you think you're gonna be that all over, until you actually start diving through the hair.

Helen: Okay, so now we're gonna have a little chat about different ways that people can transition. Obviously, the quickest way for someone to transition is to go for something like a Pixie cup.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: When is that a good, or a bad idea?

Liam: So, bearing in mind that you're gonna go for a Pixie cut, which if you've got quite long hair, or even a bob, a Pixie cut's still a massive change. And then you're gonna also then add this grey hair on top of it, in a few months-time, when it's all grown out. So that could be two massive changes all in one. And chances are you're going to not like it, because everything's just so different. 

I would probably say the best way to do it is to get all that artificial pigment off your hair first, which can be by a colour remover, or a bleach pre lightener, strip it all out, and then see what the condition of your hair's like after that, before you then go for this Pixie. 

But if someone's got the right face shape, and they're totally like, I just wanna go for this Pixie, and you know, they're gonna feel comfortable with it, then I would have no qualms in doing that as well. But if someone's always had longish hair and dark. And they're gonna go for this massive change of a Pixie, and then grey hair on top of that, you'd maybe try and

Helen: They might not recognize themselves in the mirror.

Liam: Yes. Yeah. And it may just be too much of a shock all at once. 

Helen: So, what face shapes does a Pixie cut suit?

Liam: For a Pixie, you kind of need a heart shaped face, which is like a little bit wider here. And then, yeah, just a bit more of a heart shape through the bottom. And that'll just give you like width here, but then keeps your face shape narrow as well. 

There is different variations of a Pixie, so you've got like a Bixie, which is a sort of Bob, grown out Pixie haircut, which suits a lot more face shapes than what a Pixie does.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: You've gotta have that perfect face shape, I think, to be able to pull off a Pixie. But like I said, there's things we can do to the Pixie, that'll suit whatever face shapes in front of us really. Yeah.

Helen: I have to say I was never tempted to have it really short, but I did go for a layered Bob.

Liam: We did, yeah. We did a Bob once, didn't we?

Helen: Yeah, with layers in, just 'cause I reached the stage where I was so sick of the colour and I just wanted to gone.

Liam: Get it out of here. Yeah.

Helen: And I think that's quite normal. I think when you have your hair coloured, you think your roots are growing really quickly. When you decide to grow it out it's like it takes forever.

Liam: Definitely. Yeah. Me Mam, she did the same as you in Lockdown as well. 'cause I couldn't get over there to colour her hair. And then I think when we could, she was like Liam just leave it. 

Me Mam was a little bit darker than you though, so hers did look not as great as what yours did when she was growing at out, let's just say. I hope she doesn't listen to this, because I told her it looked fine. It just saved me a job.

And then me Mam got a stage where we could pute like a layered Bob in hers. It was probably a bit shorter than yours. But yeah, it definitely done the trick. Like I say as well, me Mam, if we tried to lift it out of me Mam’s we wouldn't have handle it so good anyway. So yeah, she did the right thing by just leaving it.

Helen: My next question is about grey blending, which seems to have become a bit of a thing in the last

Liam: Absolutely.

Helen: five years probably.

Liam: That's all my Instagram is full of. When I'm scrolling down my Reels, I'm like, oh, more grey blending. Looks amazing. Transformations look incredible. 

With grey blending you would generally lighten. You would do what we would call a Platinum card of highlights. And what that is, is it's every bit of the hair on your head is popped into a foil, so it can get maximum lift on the hair to get it as light as we possibly can. You're generally looking for like a level 10, which is the kind of the lightest blonde that the colour wheel will go to.

But you wouldn't touch the natural. So, you wouldn't touch the natural regrowth with that highlight, just what had artificial colour on. And then you would then assess the natural and look where the dark is, look where the light is, and then you would then go back through again and blend that route.

So, it might be a case of adding lowlights, adding some highlights. And just matching, mimicking what their natural's doing.

Helen: Sounds like quite a long process?

Liam: Yeah. Depending on the length of hair, you might have to do that in a couple of sit-ins. 'cause it takes about nine hours I would probably say on like medium, length hair.  And then just be prepared to pay for the time that you're sat in the chair, as well.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: It's more just the lift of that Platinum card. Artificial pigment is just so hard to lift from the hair, just takes so much breaking down. So sometimes you've then gotta reopen them foils, and then reapply. And then you'll get spots where it's lifting better than others, and you then have to like un-spot, then reapply. It's a real process.

Helen: Yeah. 

Liam: I mean, worth it when you're done, if you're happy with it, 'cause then you never have to touch your hair again. So, I guess it is worth it for that. The only thing I would say as well with the lowlights off the grey. So, if you've got naturally dark grey and we lowlight that to mimic what your natural's doing, that can then sometimes fade as well.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: So, it might be a case of like coming back in again just to get that touched up every few months, or just until it all kinda grows out.

But one girl at the moment who, let's say she was between 30 and 40, and she was letting her box dye dark hair grow out, and she had about three inches of root. When she came in, she wanted the grey blending. But then when we assessed it was only like 30% of her hair was white. So, the rest of it was really quite dark.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: So, I said, if we lighten it all up, you're gonna have a dark root that you're gonna be fighting with. So, at the moment we're just blending through some artificial dark pigment in lowlights, highlights in foils, just so that she hasn't got that definite line of the root.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: And it's definitely helping her along the way. That's also like another option as well.

Helen: Yeah. I mean, I've spoken to a few people who've, in preparation for growing it out, have had a mixture of highlights and lowlights, over a couple of years. 

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: And gradually reducing so that when they grow it, it's not got the hard line, which is probably the most difficult part of it.

Liam: Yeah, it definitely does help take away the severity of that regrowth line, shall we say, the highlights and lowlights. I'd probably recommend that than going down the grey blending route. I'd love to do the grey blending route with someone, it's just time and money.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: So, highlights is definitely a better option over a year or two, just to get you out that initial phase of the regrowth line. The only thing is with all permanent colours, all highlights, they all tend to fade warm, which is what nobody likes. 

And when you've got that warmth that's faded against the grey ash, it's like the severity of having the ash root and then the warm ends sometimes is a little bit.

Helen: Yep.

Liam: Scary. But yeah, there's not much we can do about colour fade, unfortunately. I haven't thought of anything yet Helen, so use much better shampoos and things like that for helping prolong your colour a lot longer. But it's every day like heat styling, and hair drying, and everything like that, over time, that does.

Helen: Don't do any of that. That's the answer.

Liam: Yeah, uh-huh, never dry it. Never wash it.

Helen: Wash it occasionally. Okay. So, a few people I spoke to did get all the colour stripped out in one session, and basically said it took all day.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: And their hair wasn't in very good condition at the end of it. Would you say that's normal?

Liam: Absolutely. Yeah. It depends what they've been colouring the hair with prior as well. Like if they've been having it done professionally, how dark it is, all them factors. If someone had been box eyeing the hair and they wanted to lift it all out, like as professionals, we know that you'd be telling them to expect to go short.

You wouldn't want anybody leaving this salon with damaged hair. So yeah, you would advise on that. And if they were happy to go for that, then we'll go ahead with it. But yeah, it can take its toll on, especially if you're really dark and you want to lift all that out.

We're a lot better now where, we've got treatments to pop into colours like Olaplex or MPlex, Fibre Plex. Have you heard of any of them or?

Helen: No.

Liam: The disulphide bonds in our hair when we’re colouring it. They get broken up so that the colour can then go in and do its job.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: And these Olaplexes and MPlex, they’re all in insurance that you would pop inside the colour, and it's like a concentration of disulphide bonds. 

Helen: Okay.

Liam: So, when we're taking the disulphide bonds out and we're colouring, the Olaplex is working against it, and popping it back in there. Then there's a sealer at the end after you've had your colour done, which again is just full of disulphide bonds. So, it's just making sure that we've got some insurance when we're doing jobs like lifting, and highlighting.

Helen: You've got some treatments that can help with that.

Liam: Yeah. Yeah.

Helen: My hair is in so much better condition now that I don't bleach it anymore.

Liam: Oh yeah, definitely.

Helen: It was always really dry.

Liam: Have you noticed any difference in it without having a colour pigment in there do you struggle with shine?

Helen: It is probably more shiny now. 

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: 'cause obviously mine's bleach blonde, and it was never particularly shiny. Other than when I first came out of the salon when it had various things on it.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: Because I don't put stuff on my hair other than shampoo and conditioner. It's definitely shinier now.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: Which again is a thing I think people don't expect when they go grey. They expect it to be sort of very wiry and matte. And maybe that is how it is for some people, but not everyone.

Liam: Yeah, I think depended on the hair type. You've always had quite lovely smooth hair anyway, so that was always gonna be the case when you went grey as well. But yeah, it, just depends on people's hair type, I suppose.

Helen: Any tips for women who have decided to go cold turkey, and have the stripe and grow out in terms of ways they might style their hair to disguise the stripe?

Liam: I would definitely say try and get some volume on the roots. It depends how like bothered you are by it. But yeah, if you are bothered by it, definitely try and get some lift. 

I would try not to have a definite parting. So, by that you can either like go off to like one side, or zigzag it a little bit. But just try not to have that definite where it's like in your face

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: Again, if you're bothered by it. If you're not bothered by it, then who cares what anybody else thinks.

There's root sprays. They do like brunette dry shampoos, blonde dry shampoos, so there's sprays, or mascara also. If you're having your hair up and you've got loads through the front, you could just pop a little bit mascara on there. There's definitely a lot that you could do to disguise if for big events.

Helen: Yeah, and one of the women I spoke to was like, and I've got three weddings in the year that I was growing out. I wasn't sure whether I should do it 'cause I could ruin the photos. And then she was like, but then I looked at them afterwards and it was all right. 

Liam: Yeah. Absolutely.

Helen: And she was absolutely was sort of saying she used quite a lot of clips to curl it up. Lots of people plait it. I spent most of the time with it in a ponytail. Just 'cause I really didn't wanna look at the stripe.

Liam: It's like everything, I think we're more bothered about how it's gonna look than what other people are gonna be actually bothered about.

Helen: Yeah. You just don't notice.

Liam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would probably notice, I'm not gonna lie, but it's my job.

Helen: So, if we have gone grey and we've got lots of white hair, should we be using purple shampoos and conditioners?

Liam: Yeah, but try not to overdo it with them. There's also a really good treatment. I'm not sure if working for the company that I work for should try and plug this 'cause it's not to do with them, but it's a Malibu C treatment. Which is basically just vitamin C, and that sits over your hair, and just pushes like all the metal out of there, all the impurities and things like that. 

But I dunno if sometimes if you've had many women who've told you that the grey has gone like yellow all the time or,

Helen: Yeah. Yeah.

Liam: It can be anything down to your water that you’re shampooing your hair with if that's got metal in and then your blow drying and putting heat on that metal, it's gonna start discolouring.

But it's not your hair that's discolouring, 'cause there's no pigment there to discolour. It's more that the metal that's stuck inside the hair that's discolouring. 

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: And heat, things like straighteners, if you're running straighteners over it. It can be any like free radical or anything that's stuck in there, like if the heat's reacting with it, it will start going a yellowy kinda tinge on grey hair. 

So, that treatment is definitely a good one. It's just some crystals, and it looks like washing powder. But then itis just these crystals, and you sit with it on your hair. And it's just vitamin C, and it just pushes out all the impurities. And you leave that on for like 45 minutes. 

Helen: Okay.

Liam: That's a really good one. If you are scared of using anything like that yourself, take it into your professional, and see if they'd be happy to do it on you. 

But again, if you've got that yellowy tinge in your head, the purple shampoos and purple conditioners are great for cancelling out that. On the colour wheel, purple cancels out yellow, so

Helen: Yeah. 

Liam: it's definitely good to utilize it. It's just not gonna solve the problem of getting rid of it.

Helen: The cause of it. Yeah.

Liam: Yeah. It's not gonna get rid of any of the metals, or like anything that we've spoke about. So yeah, I would say more like cleansing treatments good to get all the dirt out.

Helen: I use a Damage Remedy Conditioner from Aveda, which I used when I had blonde hair.

Liam: Yeah.

Helen: And I still just use the same one.

Liam: Oh no. Yeah, I think that'd be perfect for your hair.

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: it it's gonna be full of like protein, and keratin

Helen: Yeah.

Liam: So, yeah. No. Cool. Do you use any purple shampoos or anything?

Helen: No.

Liam: No.

Helen: It's quite interesting. Some people do and some people don't. I think if I had more white hair, maybe I would notice more yellowing, but I don't put a lot of heat treatment in my hair either, so.

Liam: Yeah, I was gonna say, I've never noticed any yellowing on yours. It's quite clean your hair, from root to tip. You're doing good.

Helen: Thank you. Well, I think I might call it a day there and say, thanks so much for joining me.

Liam: Oh, you're welcome.

Helen: Fascinating to get some hints and tips from you.

Liam: Yeah, no, it's been lovely being on. Thanks for having me. And I'll see you in like eight weeks or so.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.