Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey, in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Franca Cumbo, a Meta Certified Ads Manager with 20 plus years in digital marketing, who helps early-stage e-commerce, for good brands, unlock revenue growth through honest data-driven social and search campaigns. As the founder of Lionstar Social, she serves as your flexible, fractional marketing partner, combining strategic insight with hands-on execution, so your brand can scale sustainably. 

Hello, Franca. How are you?

Franca: Hi, Helen. I'm very well, thank you.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Franca: Wow. That will take me back a long, long time. I had very long hair. I do remember seeing photos of me with very, very long hair. I was about maybe eight or nine, and it was a very sort of mousy, quite a light brown colour, wavy. 

I remember going from very, very long to short, you know, that awful like bowl cut that most of us had. And that was quite an event, like having that haircut and it was like a family member that cut my hair. 

But it was when, you know, you go like cut a really, really long piece of it, and you know, my Mum sort of standing next to me, and say it's gonna be okay. I didn't have long hair, you know, for very long. But I remember it being quite a momentous thing to like cut it off.

Helen: Can you remember why it was cut?

Franca: I can't, but I'm presuming it's something like maintenance, you know, easier to wash, and keep tidy. And I think it was just the thing, like everybody at school had these like bowl cuts and just really easy to manage haircuts. Yeah,

Helen: Purdey from the Avengers, I think is responsible.

Franca: Yeah, yeah. But not very sort of stylish. When I look back at school photos, my hair was just really messy and boy-like. I had this sort of boyish messy look, you know, quite short, and not much going on really.

Helen: Did you have that all the way through your teens, or did you grow again?

Franca: Well during the teens, you know, I went through the perm. With the short hair. So, I had that perm at the front, you know. And I remember having quite a few perms. And not realizing the damage I was doing to my hair. 

I was trying to stay up with the trends, and I remember watching, you know, the Human League video and really loving that, what was that called? The wedge, you know, that wedge cut. It was like a really long fringe and kind of short the back. But I didn't have straight hair, so it didn't ever look that good. But my teens was you know, wavy, curly perm. And yeah, you thought you'd looked good, but no, it was pretty disastrous.

But I've always been very particular about my hair. If you talk to anybody that knows me, they'll wanna sort of stay away from the hair topic. Because there's always something that I can't get quite right. The hairdressers never cut it the way I want it. Or I have a haircut and then I'm regretful or you know. So, if I'm going to the hairdressers, my Husband would be like, oh God, please just keep it simple.

Helen: I can kind of relate to that 'cause, my teens were basically spend it in a grow out phase. 

Franca: Yes.

Helen: Where I would grow it to about Bob length, and then I would have it cut really short again. And then I would hate it. And then I would grow out again

Franca: Yeah.

Helen:  for about four or five years.

Franca: Yeah, I remember, breaking up with somebody who meant a lot to me at the time. And how old was I? I was in my twenties actually, and I just went super short, like Pixie, you know. And that was just my way of dealing with emotions, you know, it's like right that's it, I'm gonna have a whole new look, a whole new identity.

So, I did play with my hair a lot, I mean I wasn't afraid to do things. But yeah, that was a very big change.

Helen: Did you colour it as well, or did you just play with the style?

Franca: Mainly style. I didn't do like any wacky colours or anything. And then, it's interesting, I can't remember when I started dyeing my hair. But I then just went for sort of more of a natural looking colour. So, it was sort of brown, which is similar to my colour, but never just leaving it natural. So, I always wanted it to look natural, but I would dye it. I think I felt like my natural colour was a bit too dull, and not that exciting. 

And then I always liked it when I was in the sun, and the ends would go a bit lighter. So, I did a bit of, you know, lemon juice in my hair, chamomile in my hair, when I was in the sun. I always sort of liked that highlight sort of look.

I think I did have some highlights, you know, in the past, like around the front. I never sort of went red or purple or,

Helen: Yeah

 Franca: you know, anything crazy.

Helen: And can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Franca: I can't actually. I do remember like plucking a few, you know, seeing a few and pulling them out. I wasn't like, oh my God, this is awful. I just thought, well, it's gonna happen eventually. 

I think what really, sort of got to me was when my roots would show up so quickly, you know. And then that started to be like, okay, this is gonna be really hard to keep up.

Helen: Yeah.

Franca: But, I don't really remember that moment. No.

Helen: So was the dyeing to cover the greys, or did it start before you found greys, can you remember? 

Franca: It started before, and it was to create a more lush sort of brown look, you know? So, enhancing my natural colour. And then it was to hide the grey roots, you know, so any greys would get hidden. So, I never actually then knew how many greys I had, 'cause I never really left them to show up.

Helen: And were you colouring it yourself, or were you doing it in a salon?

Franca: I'd go to a salon mainly. I think I did try a few, like home dyes. It made me look quite harsh, like I never got the colour right. It was either too dark. and it was too blocky, or yeah, I was never very good at it.

Helen: How often were you going by the time you decided to stop?

Franca: That's probably the one main reason why I did stop, because for me to, hide the greys, I would have to have gone every month. It was starting to show through, you know, my growth would appear like every three, four weeks. I'd start to see it. Like it got to that point and I was like, no, I am not going to the hairdressers this often.

I didn't enjoy it. I didn't see it as sort of a bit of pampering or a treat. It was actually just annoying to have to sit somewhere for a few hours to get it done.

Helen: An expensive chore then?

Franca: And expensive. Although, once I decided to stop, I also decided to cut my hair and go quite short, well shorter. So, I had sort of longer hair over my shoulder. And then I think last November a bit shorter than a Bob. And I really, really liked that change. 

But now I like having the shorter hair, but now I feel like that's where I spend my time, and money, is having to go to the hairdresser every two, three months to keep it short. ‘cause it grows quite quickly.

Helen: When did you actually stop?

Franca: It's been about year and a half, I think.

Helen: Okay, so is your grow out not fully complete yet then? You've still got some colour on the ends?

Franca: I think it's sort of stopped coming through or something. If I lift my hair up, you'll see loads of grey underneath. And I have been cutting it quite frequently. So, I thought that the grey growth would happen a lot more quickly.

Helen: Yeah.

Franca:  Like I'd see a lot more grey, but I just feel like it sort of plateaued a bit. I dunno if that's something that happens. But I've got sort of lighter brown on the ends. And that's from years and years of, you know, being in the sun, and just colouring it. I think it gets quite porous, doesn't it? The ends.

Helen: Yeah.

Franca: My hair is in a lot better condition now that I've sort of cut it, and stopped colouring it. But yeah, I think that's one of the other reasons why I'm cutting it short, I wanna sort of get it all grey.

Helen: Yeah, I think that is one of the things that lots of us do. Is we overestimate how grey we're actually gonna be.

Franca: Mm

Helen: are so fixated on the roots that we can see at the front. Which tends to be an area that does grow grey a lot quicker than the other parts of your hair. So, like my hair is way striper than I thought it was gonna be

Franca: mm

Helen: when I started growing out, I thought it would be quite white. And it's just not.

Franca: How long has it been for you?

Helen: I grew out in COVID, so five years. So, it is fully out, but it's still, you can see from the side, it's very stripey. Mine's very white at the front and underneath, but then the back's still much more my natural colour.

Franca: Yeah. I feel like it's sort of plateauing a bit, I'm not seeing it come through.

I've had quite a lot of positive feedback actually from it. That's sort of helped me know that yeah, this is the right decision. You know, I'm really happy I did this. And I had a friend that did it first, and she sort of inspired me.

Helen: I was gonna ask you how your friends and family reacted when you said you were gonna go grey?

Franca: I don't think I sort of announced it. I just sort of did it, you know, I just started to do it. And I think in combination with the short haircut, it was quite a positive reaction. It was like, oh wow, that looks great.

I think it does look better with the haircut. Because my hair was just looking really dry, and straggly, just from the years sun and colour. And it just was very frizzy. It's just in really bad condition

Helen: Another thing I was gonna ask you, you live in Amsterdam normally, don't you?

Franca: Yes, I do.

Helen: Would you say it's normal for women to dye their hair there, or do you see quite a lot of people choosing to go grey?

Franca: Good question. This may sound a bit strange, but I don't have a lot of Dutch friends. A lot of my friends are sort of expats, you know, I'm in the international community. 

So, I see a lot of Dutch women with grey hair, actually I do. But I don't know what's sort of driving that, you know, if it's like a trend, or if it's something that's part of their culture or. But I do see it.

I have noticed recently younger people I know, like neighbours, that have done it as a conscious, I'm going grey. So yes, I think it's happening more. 

In my circle, so my family in the UK and friends in the UK, it's also just something I think people are more interested in. I'm in my fifties, my sisters that are a bit older. And I've got cousins of my age, and they're all sort of quite interested in it. 

And one cousin said, right, I'm gonna do it as well. But she dyed it grey. She didn't wanna go cold turkey, 

Helen: Yeah, yeah.

Franca: and see the growth. So, she put in sort of the highlights, and got a you know, a hairdresser. And she spent like hours and hours. And it looks great. But she just wanted to jump to the end point. She said, I can't do it, how you've done It, and see the growth. 

Even though I did sort of say, it's only for a few months where it kind of doesn't look that great. And then it starts to blend in, and you know, it's not that long. But you just have to respect everybody's decision to do it in their own way.

Helen: Yeah, yeah, completely. So, did you feel uncomfortable in the beginning then when you just had the roots showing a little bit?

Franca: Yeah, I did. I just felt a little bit like unkempt or you know, orlike I'm haven't made my latest appointment

Helen: Yeah.

Franca:  to the hairdressers. It's like, oh, she's obviously forgotten to go to the hairdressers. And I did sort of realize, okay, I'm gonna have to make a little bit more effort maybe with makeup, or you know, just the rest of me. But it didn't last too long. Yeah, I think I just got used to it. 

And even my Husband says, you know, oh, I really like it, don't dye again. You know, it's sort of part of me. My kids, I remember showing them Pinterest images of women with grey hair sort of youngish looking, you know, they look grat with grey.

And I was like look, this is what I wanna do. And they were like, yeah, but Mum, they're young. You know, you are not. Oh, they're like, you're gonna just look old because you are. I was like, oh, thanks a lot. 

Helen: I was gonna come back to the grow out. Quite a few people have said to me, the first six months is the hardest. Because after that it's obvious what you're doing. But up until that point, you think you're gonna be judged by other people, because you just look a little bit lazy.

Franca: Yeah. Yeah. I can relate to that. It was quicker than I thought. 

Helen: Yeah.

Franca: You know, I think I got through it a lot more quickly. I think it was that sort of first inch, and you see the old and the new, and that didn't look great. And then it just started to blend in. 

One thing I did try before going cold turkey, is when I went to my colourist and I said, this is what I wanna do. She said, oh, I've done this for somebody else, where I've put some highlights and it sort of helps the growth, you know, the grow out.

So, I went with her advice. And I thought it looked awful. Like it just didn't look good at all, sort of having highlights, plus the grey. I just stopped doing that. It wasn't sort of a grey highlight it was a different highlight.

Helen: Yeah.

Franca: And I didn't think that looked good at all. So, I thought actually just going for it, going cold turkey's probably the best way to do it.

Helen: Yeah, I think a lot depends as well on how dark your hair is. 

Franca: Yeah.

Helen: Quite a few people who have said if you're dyeing it like very dark brown or black, and you've got a lot of white, and the contrast is just so strong that not everybody feels comfortable with

Franca: yeah.

Helen: going cold turkey.

Franca: No, definitely not. 

I think another motivation for me was I saw other women with the grey, and it just looked so beautiful. You know, when it's dark, and do you call it like the salt and pepper sort of look?

Helen: Yeah.

Franca:  and it, the dark hair with the grey, you know, just going through the hair. And I just thought, oh, that's so lovely, you know. Or I'd see that look where it's very silver, and the women would have maybe tattoos, and it's kind of quite rock chick, you know? So, I just had that as sort of inspiration of, wow, this looks beautiful. 

I think that exposure is what helped me understand that, you know, it is something that you can embrace, and make it your own.

Helen: Yeah. So, were you looking on places like Pinterest and Instagram then for that sort of inspiration?

Franca: Yes. Yes.

Helen: Did you make a Pinterest board? I'm curious.

Franca: I do have a hair Pinterest board. It is not all about the silver, you know, grey look. It's also like short haircuts. I'm always looking for examples when I go to my hairdresser. I'm very, very particular, Helen. I've got notes in my app on my hair, so when I go to the hairdresser, I go over all the notes again.

I mean, I am probably a hairdresser's worst nightmare. But what I realized is I would assume that they'd remember everything about you, and your hair. My hair's kind of, it's sort of straight, wavy depends on, you know, is it humid, is it dry? And my hair changes. And I don't like layers in my hair, but you have to have some sort of texture, or it goes completely crazy.

And then I'd go to the hairdresser, and then they'd go, oh, hi, how are you? And I'd assume that they would know all of that. They'd remember from the three months ago. And I think Franca, they've cut about 50 people's hair since. So, I make notes, and I go over the notes again every time. So, yeah.

Helen: Okay.

Franca: My Husband feels sorry for any hairdresser that has to cut my hair.

Helen: My hairdressers are like, your hair is so easy-going, however we decide we want to dry it, it just does it.

Franca: Oh, I wish my hair was easy-going. No, it's quite high maintenance.

Helen: Okay. I'm gonna ask you one last question. If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice and tips would you have for them?

Franca: Well, I would say. It's a great thing to do. I would reinforce that it can look really beautiful, and really nice. And that the hard part you can get over that quite quickly. 

But also let them know there's different ways of doing it, so they don't have to go through the growth. And just to get inspiration, and see what's out there. And go for it. I would say just do it. 

And if you don't like it, I mean it is quite easy to turn the clock back, you know, to reverse that decision. But I don't know if many women do. Do you, know Helen? Do people that go grey then change their minds? 'cause I haven't really come across that.

Helen: I've come across a few. And I've spoken to a few on the podcast, who have redyed it again as a result of comments they've received. And then grown it out again at a later date. 

And it's quite often, it's children, saying things, cause obviously they're not as tactful as most adults would be. So, it is sort of saying, you look like a granny or whatever. And I think being mistaken for the grandmother, when you are the mother, a few people have found really uncomfortable.

Franca: Yes.

Helen: But most people seem to like it.

Franca: Yeah, I could see how that could happen. 

And I've spoken to some people where they really love the idea of it and they just say, I'm not there yet, you know, I'm not ready. And I say, yeah, that's fine, you know. 

And I've got two older sisters that dye their hair and they said, oh, I will always dye my hair. And I'm like, that's fine too.

Helen: Exactly. It's like you do you. I'll do me, thanks.

Franca: You do you. Yes.

Helen: Right. Well, I wanna say thank you, for joining me and enjoy the rest of your day.

Franca: Thanks a lot Helen. It's great to talk to you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.