Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey, in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Emma Finn, an Irish artist focused on the relationships between humans and non-humans, particularly aspects that allude logical understanding and might otherwise go undocumented in archives.

In her artist filmmaking, Finn constructs playful worlds from these fragments of history, and is currently a PhD candidate at the Royal College of Art in London. 

Hello, Emma. How are you?

Emma: Hello, Helen. I'm glad to be here. 

Helen: I'm very impressed with your intro.

Emma: Oh, thank you. I feel like, it sounds vague, but yeah, I make films, and I draw, and write, and animate. And I've recently been moving into 16 millimetre, so that's been interesting too.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you, what your hair was like when you were a child?

Emma: My hair was dark. I would say I'm naturally a level three or four. Quite ashy. But I always thought I wanted it even darker. I wanted it like blue, black. I had a twin sister, and her hair was very similar in darkness, but she had more of an auburn tone to it. So, it was really a good way to tell us apart sometimes.

I always thought my hair was straight. But looking back now, I realize it was just because of the time it was fashionable to have it straight. And I think I just brushed it to oblivion, because whenever it got wet it would sort of wave up. 

When I was older, I was very lucky that my parents, particularly my Mum, was quite open with me experimenting with my hair. And I think that was important to me, not just as a teenage girl, but also as a twin. 

So, I actually started, experimenting with dye at 12. But my Mum always said that if I want to use bleach, I have to go to a salon, because she didn't want any disasters. So, the first thing I did was, I had bleach tips on my long hair. And the tips were dyed like a fire engine red, which looked quite nice, especially in a ponytail. 

And then there was henna so that I could get my blue black. And when I was in my later teens, I even experimented with things like cyber locks. That's like basically woolly locks in your hair. It was lots of things like that.

And when I went to Uni there was more bleach in panels. And in my twenties, it was a lot of that. Yeah. A lot of different colours. I've been every colour.

Helen: Would you say you used your hair quite a lot to experiment with your image then?

Emma: Yeah. I think it was, when you're in Ireland, like, we had the school uniforms obviously, and I had a twin sister. And I think the hair was probably a way for me to, personalize my avatar as I put it, a way to kind of be myself. 

I also liked to experiment with makeup, but I think hair was more my thing. My sister was much more into the makeup. I loved doing braids, and I loved doing different up styles and dos. 

I used to put way too many braids in my hair and then take them out, so my hair was crimped to oblivion, but I thought it looked great. I think it was just a really fun way to play. And also, I'm a bit of a fidgeter, and I always like making things, so I think braiding my hair a lot was sort of just a way to kind of take some of that nervous energy, and put it somewhere. 

As a self-conscious teenager, my hair was something that always brought me some confidence, because I had some level of control over it. And I was lucky enough to have thick hair, and it to grow well.

Helen: Was it always long?

Emma: Most of the time. I think my default is long, but I've had several times in my life where I had it short. Sometimes by choice, sometimes by accident at the hairdressers. 

I remember the first time it was cut short was I was five, and my Mum wanted us both to have short Bobs. And after that she said, I'm not even sure if it was her, but the sentiment upon seeing my hair and my sister's hair was, oh, the Bob suits Tara. The Bob does not suit Emma. 

And I think I could see that too. But at that age, you know, I definitely knew it was gonna grow back, and I wasn't upset. I just was like, okay. But yeah, I think it was mostly long. 

But I got really into fringes once I got into my late teens. Because I didn't have one as a little girl. I think it was very popular, because I was born in 87, but in the early Nineties it was very popular to have fringes. But my Mum just didn't want us to have fringes for whatever reason, so I didn't discover them until I was 16. 

And then I basically have spent my life growing out my fringe, or having a fringe since then. It's just always one or the other. Yeah.

Helen: I always found them too high maintenance, I have to say.

Emma: Yeah, they can be quite annoying. A lot of time I spent over the sink washing them before going to college or going to work.

Helen: When did you find your first grey hair? Can you remember?

Emma: I do, I really distinctly remembered 'cause I was upstairs, I don't know why I was in the guest bathroom, but I saw it in the mirror. I didn't pluck it out or do anything like that. I wasn't even upset. 

I think I was 16 and I just thought, oh, it's happening. Things are changing. And I think, 'cause a couple people on my Mum's side had gone grey young, including herself to a certain degree. I just thought, oh, well it's just my time. It didn't worry me, and it didn't make me upset, or anything like that. 

I guess I sort of was urging it on. I remember when I was in my twenties, when it was trendy there in the Noughties, I think it was, or the Tens, to dye your hair silver. I was one of those people that did that. I really did.  I think it's never been something I was afraid of. 

Although my Mum did cover her greys, she kept her hair dark for quite a long time. 'cause that was her natural colour as well. I remember going to salon and seeing her covering it, and the smell of it as well was always something I remembered. But I kind of fond memories of the smell, 'cause it reminds me of being little with my Mum.

 But yeah, it, never occurred to me at that age to cover them, or to do anything about them. If anything, I just thought, oh, that'll be a patch where I won't need to put bleach. And the pink or the blue or the purple will stick really well there. So,I wasn't that worried about it.

Helen: Did there ever come a point in the colouring where part of it was to cover the grey?

Emma: Eventually. I remember I was in my early thirties, and I decided I am going to go copper, because I'd never gone a natural shade of any colour. I'd always stuck to like supernatural shades. 

And I thought that, okay, if I wanna go copper, 'cause my hair was fully natural. That point I hadn't had dye in it for a couple years. I thought I'm gonna have to. This will probably be my last dance with dye, before I just not colour my hair anymore. 

'cause I knew it was getting to the stage where people were starting to realize I was going grey, and I liked it. I used to get so many compliments on the sparkles in my hair, and people asking if I got it done at a salon. 

But I also knew I wanted to go copper. And, if I wanted to go copper, probably better to do it now, I thought. Because I didn't want to get too far into the silver phase. And then, go copper. So, I went copper, loved it. 

Then the Pandemic hit, and I couldn't get my roots done for ages, and I thought, oh, maybe I should grow it out now. And just go with it. But then I liked the copper so much, and I really wasn't finished with the copper. So, for around a year or so after the Lockdown lifted, I still was copper, and getting it dyed.

And then I just decided I had enough of it, and I wanted to go back to my natural and everything. But I knew that the grow out from copper, with my roots, because I'm quite salt and pepper. So, if I was having the salt and pepper, with the really copper hair as the grow out, it would've been quite harsh for me. So, I figured, okay, I'll go dark. I'll cover it up for a bit, I'll go dark, and then I'll grow it out from there.

What I didn't realize was just suddenly, it was still like this nervousness of like, wait, oh, it's showing, but is this the right time for me to grow it out? Because, oh, I've got this wedding coming up, or this event on, or whatever. So, I think for over a year, I just didn't grow it out. I just kept up with the maintenance of dyeing it. 

Although I was never very good at that, I would really overstretch it between appointments. The big roots never bothered me too much. But what did bother me was I remember trying to plan appointments around events, and being really annoyed at the logistics. 

Also, it wasn't fun the way it used to be to dye my hair, where I would be like, oh, this is a fun shade. It was just trying to maintain a status quo of what my hair should look like in uniform. So, I decided that it wasn't a good idea to keep doing it, but I wasn't quite ready. 

And I remember the Mument that I got pushed to do it, it was a friend of mine who hadn't seen for a while, complimented me on my highlights. And I thought they meant the highlights at the end that I had gotten done. And they actually meant the highlights in my roots. 

And he said it as kind of a joke, 'cause in like, oh, I see your highlights are showing on top. And then I thought why am I hiding it? Because I actually quite liked seeing my roots come in. I was just worried about the long wait between it being grown out. That was the thing that was bothering me. And then I was saying to him like, oh yeah, I'm meant to get my roots done in a few weeks. 

And then I remembered I was booking my logistics around. The fact that I had this exam in my PhD was my, confirmation exam, the halfway point, the upgrade. And I realized, why am I booking an appointment to cover my hair for that exam, when some of the women in that room who are academics and artists I really respect, have grey hair? 

Who am I doing this for? 'cause I'm not gonna enjoy how my hair looks after the dye appointment. I was getting quite bored of it. So, I was like, oh, I'm done, I'm not covering it anymore. So, I just didn't book any more appointments. 

I haven't dyed my hair since September last year, so it's nearly a year. It's not quite. And yeah, I haven't regretted it. There's never been a Mument where I felt like I needed dye or anything. I didn't want any dye on the roots. So, yeah.

Helen: They say, a year to the ear. Is that about where you're at?

Emma: I would say so. My hair is strange in the sense that I have a really dark fringe area. Which actually meant that when I was growing the grey out, the more annoying part was I was also growing my fringe out at that time. And the really dark fringe was really pissing me off.

sorry, I'm not sure if you're allowed to say swears in this, but you’ve got an Irish person here, so you're gonna get what you get. But basically, yeah, I do think it's almost a year, to the ear. That's been okay., I was tempted a few weeks ago to chop it off into a Bob. But I decided that I wasn't ready for that, and I would still have more hair to grow out. So there really wasn't a point. 

But I did get my ends coloured, just to get rid of the brassiness that was there, but she didn't let it go anywhere near the grow out. So that way I won't add any more time to my sentence.

Helen: One way of putting it. So, did you just

Emma: Yeah,

Helen: have it dyed like the dark colour again, that it was before on the ends?

Emma: Yeah. Because I had had some highlights through the bottom to break it up. I had a bit of a balayage done maybe six months before I stopped dyeing it completely. And those were very bright. So sometimes the eye would bounce between the ends and the roots when I was growing it out.

Whereas now, I feel it's more congruent that the ends are dark, and the top is lighter. Because it's similar in tone, it's cooler on both sides. Whereas my ends before were quite warm still from the hair colour, and the lightened ends. 

But that's another thing, even the salon visits and everything, I could never get my hair dyed to look like my natural hair. Because you have to fill the cuticle with this warm colour, and then you're just trying to put toners on top to keep it cool, and neutral. And if you're someone who's like naturally has ashy hair, you're never going to get that from a bottle. Or if you are, it's gonna be repeatingly dyeing it every few weeks just to try to keep it at bay. 

So, I think, maybe if I'd been like a naturally warmer colour, I wouldn't have found it so draining to have the warm colours in my hair. But yeah, I'm just better off with the leaving it, I think.

Helen: How have other people reacted to you going grey?

Emma: I didn't worry at all about telling my Partner. I knew he'd be all for it, and happy with it. He just thinks everyone should have the right to do whatever they want with their appearances. And also, he can't blame me, 'cause he was grey when I met him like 15 years ago. He was very young when he went grey. 

I was a bit more nervous telling my Mum but only because I think she was much older than me when she decided to stop dye her hair. But she was supportive as well. She said, oh, you know, I think you're right.  

I listed all my reasons. Part of it was just the expense of dyeing it and maintaining it. Part of it was the fact that it wasn't any fun to do it. It really felt more like shackles to me at this point. And also, it just was the right time. 

Whereas I went cold turkey, when she decided to let her greys be out, she lightened it. And bleached it. And it just went through all of that. And I think she knew that it would be softer for me to do it at this age, when my hair wasn't fully grey. And that's been the case. It's been quite easy. It's quite obviously grey from the back and the top. I'm lucky in that the front, what I see is kind of a mix, so I get the benefit of that.

I did find that most people don't care, at all. I think it's you care, and you worry, but then actually no one cares. And also, I think because I'm in the Irish world, I noticed that people, have always been quite accepting about other people choosing to look the way they wanna look. To a certain degree. I think it's much more about being true to what you want.

That doesn't mean we're against hair dye. I think, you know, lots of people do funky colours, and other things. But also, when I look around the people in my studio, for example, so many of them have their natural greys out, and nobody bats an eyelid. And it wouldn't even occur to us to think about it.

I think there was something I said before, which was that, I remember in college one day in a seminar for the PhD, someone said that the art world loves two things, bad boys and old women. So, the idea of showing your grey hair and letting it be, is sort of like I don’t know, smiled upon, I guess. You know, it's accepting the truth of what you are and authenticity. So, yeah.

Helen: Yeah, so in the space you're in, it's kind of a kind of self-expression, I guess.

Emma: Yeah. I think it's also, more of a norm I suppose. There's plenty of people that do cover their greys, but I don't think anyone would frown upon that either. It's just that we're allowed to do what we wanted ourselves. It's our expression is a choice.

And you know, I suppose these things are never permanent one way or another. You know, nothing stopping any of us from starting to dye it, or stopping to dye it and all of that. So really wasn't a big deal. I definitely didn't think about what people at work would think, 'cause it really wasn't even a factor. 

I think I was probably more concerned about what maybe my Mum, or my aunts in Ireland would say. I think maybe this is more because I haven't lived in Ireland for a few years. But I feel like in Ireland, I was a bit more nervous about what it would be seen like there, because I wouldn't have known that many people who were younger with grey hair there. 

But actually, when I was back there recently, I just noticed suddenly, oh, there's loads of them. There's loads of people who do it. You just don't realize it. And maybe because of that time difference between being there in the Noughties and now. There's a lot of things have changed in terms of how people feel comfortable expressing themselves, and just being who they are.

Helen: Mm-hmm. I think the Pandemic changed an awful lot of that.

Emma: Yeah, for sure.

Helen: How about the condition of your hair? Are you finding that any different now that you're not dyeing it anymore?

Emma: It was funny 'cause for a while when I started to notice my greys coming in stronger, I thought my hair was getting much coarser, and more wiry. But actually, I just switched shampoos and that fixed everything. So, I think it wasn't the hair, I think it was the hair care. 

I did lose a lot of hair, during the pandemic every time I got sick with COVID, I would lose hair. And then when my Mum got sick, and thankfully now, she's knock wood, she's well again, I lost hair. At both these times. That did concern me. 

But I've noticed that since stopping the dyeing process, my hair has become fuller again. And I think that's partly because of I'm putting that stress on it. Yeah, so it's probably partly less stress in life, and partly less stress in my hair. 

But I have been trying to look after it better. I used to not really use heat that much. I thought that was enough to keep the hair in good condition. But I started following some advice that I found online about, putting oil at the ends of your hair every night before bed, and just loosely putting it in a bun on top of your head and with a clip. And that seems to have completely cut out my damage on my lower ends of the hair, 'cause that would be where I'd be prone to breakage. 

So, I've been able to grow it, healthier for longer now because of that. But overall, I think that the hair seems healthy enough from the root. I'm sort of curious to see what that'll be like when it gets down to the end, because it doesn't have any dye on it. 'cause you know, obviously my ear down, I've got remnants of dye, yeah.

Helen: Time will tell.

Emma: Yeah.

Helen: So how long is your hair? I actually can't see the end of it in your picture.

Emma: I actually had a haircut recently. I got like two inches off, but it's pretty long.

Helen: We're talking years before it's gonna be grown out.

Emma: Yeah. By my estimate, I think I've got like four or five years before it's fully grown. But I'd say by a year or three I'll probably be tempted just to chop it off. 'cause I think someone said to me that it's a year to the ear, two years to the shoulder. And then another year to like just past your shoulders. I'm thinking three years and I'll cut it by then. I think I'll be done with the two-tone effect. 

Helen: Yeah.

Emma: Actually, I find it's been quite nice tying it up with the two-tone. I like to put three ponytails behind my head, and that creates like a nice waterfall effect. And I do think with the greys coming in, yeah, I always get compliments on my hair from strangers when I wear it like that. I think it looks nice, and seems like other people do agree as well. 

So, I think you can have fun with the greys as they're growing out. Even if you have long hair or shorter hair, I think you can do things. With braids, and just pulling it back in different ways. Yeah,

Helen: Yeah. I plait mine quite often, and I have a very stripey ponytail.

Emma: Yeah. It's nice.

Helen: My head's really white at the front, and then the rest of it's much darker. So the opposite to you.

Emma: Yeah. But I always find that pattern, the lighter at the front is so flattering around the face. It's funny that mine's the opposite. I was thinking, gosh, this is so strange to have the opposite, but then I remembered my grandmother, she had a similar pattern to me. And I used to love brushing her hair when I was little. So, I think, I can't frown on it too much, if she had it. I have to embrace it. 

But I do think letting the greys out has helped me a lot with like seeing the colours better. For a few years there, I was really confused about what colours to wear in my clothes. And I remember just after it started to grow out and I maybe had three inches, I had it pulled up in a bun and I was in Uniqlo trying on some jumpers.

And, I suddenly was like, boy, it's so much easier to tell, which looks better on me. And it was because like I couldn't see that weird orangey bun of hair anymore. I could just see my natural colour. And I think, it's helped a lot with just makeup as well. I don't know, it just feels everything seems to be working better.

I do think there's come a stage where if you're fighting your natural colour, there's a flatness that happens to your skin, and your face. I don't know, there's something going on there. But, I dunno. It just feels more comfortable as well to be able to look in the mirror, and see all the different parts of it. And to have all that natural dimension from the silvers coming through. I think that's really nice. 

I never really got my hair lighter from the sun, like I never got those kind of auburn streaks like my sister. So, I think it's been nice to see these streaks coming through. 'cause it's more interesting than having one flat colour, you know, one blanket of colour. Yeah.

Helen: Yeah, I think I had a similar experience to you with the warm tones. 'cause I used to bleach my hair blonde, which is quite a yellow tone. And it goes kind of a warm yellow, and I can't wear that colour clothing wise. 

So, my hair was never longer than shoulder length, because I started to look really drawn when it was that sort of colour. Whereas now it's halfway down my back.

Emma: Yeah, I remember after I had my experiment with the dyed grey hair, I did have a bit of a blonde phase, and it was the same thing. It was like I couldn't be too buttery of yellow it just didn't look quite right. But yeah, I do love it on other people though.

But I also think the grey is fun. Before I stopped dyeing it, I would just see other people on the Tube or something and I'd be like, wow, their hair looks so nice. And I'm like, I wish that my hair looked like that. And regretting having dyed at copper. 

But you know, in some ways I think maybe that's why I appreciate it now, because I can see how long it takes to grow it back out to that. And you know, it's getting there. But yeah, the process of trying to cover it by either going blonde or going, you know, uniform, dark colour. I don't know, it just feels a little bit like a prison. 

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice or tips for them?

Emma: I would tell them that if they're already thinking about it, they Will be ending up doing it at some point. So, they might as well do it ASAP, because they'll just regret that they didn't do it sooner, I think. I have some friends that definitely don't want to go grey, and I think that means that's right for them.

But if you're thinking about it, and you're thinking about it for lots of different reasons, then the only thing you're worrying about is the time and the wait of having to grow it out, or cut it short, or blend and all of that. And you might as well just try. Because you'll realize it's not a big deal, as soon as you start doing it, and then you'll be closer to the goal that you have.

But I also think that there's lots of things you can do in the meantime. Like I was saying earlier, about putting up your hair in different ways, experimenting with hairstyles.

I think that going cold turkey can actually be quite liberating, rather than trying grey blending where you're spending more money to make it fit. I know some people have great success with that. I personally just didn't wanna go that route. Short hair is also a good option, especially if you're someone who can pull that off really well. 

But I think that the main advice is see it as a time to put that energy and money, that you might have spent on covering your own hair, or getting someone else to do it, and treating yourself to a massage or something. Something nice, because I think it's quite liberating, 

I only covered my hair, intentionally, covered my hair for a short period of time, like two years, but even that for me was long enough. So, if you've been doing it for a long time, I bet it'll feel amazing to stop. So definitely do it. Yeah. That's my advice to them is just do it.

Helen: Cool. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Emma: Thank you. Thanks Helen. Bye.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.