Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Kim McClaran, the Profit Queen. She's a visionary entrepreneur and high functioning systems expert in business process automation. With decades of experience in tech and finance, she helps businesses streamline operations increase efficiency and protect profits using AI driven systems.

Wow, that's some intro. Good afternoon Kim. How are you?

Kim: Hey, I'm doing. Fantastic.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Kim: I was what everyone called a strawberry blonde. So, I was a very light redheaded child.

Helen: And did you have long hair or short hair?

Kim: So, I generally had long hair, it was usually like shoulder length. Varied up and down, you know, like might be closer to my ears, or down past my shoulders. And then as I got older, it went down to the middle of my back.

Helen: Did you get teased for having red hair? I'm curious.

Kim: No, in my experience, generally, unless it was someone who was trying to make fun of me, my hair experience was people being jealous. Oh, my goodness, they wished they had my colour of hair. 

It wasn't until I got older, much older that I encountered people who were anti-red hair, you know? So that was a foreign idea to me, 'cause almost all of my life I had been embraced by this light red hair that I had.

Helen: The reason I'm asking you is my sister is a redhead, and she got teased a lot at school for having carrot hair.

Kim: Maybe because mine was so light, you know, it was almost like this peachy colour. So, it was a very unique colour, and I've never seen it on anybody else. Maybe because it was so unique.

The thing I got teased for, I think maybe the hair was overlooked, because I was so skinny. I got teased about being skinny instead of my hair.

Helen: You see now that I can understand, 'cause I got teased. I got called Daddy Long.

Kim: Oh, yes. Turn sideways. Stick your tongue out. Now you look like a zipper. You know, creative teasing, I guess.

Helen: I'm guessing you probably didn't dye your hair when you're in your teens then, 'cause you really liked the colour of it?

Kim: Yes. In fact, I did not start dyeing my hair, and I always used like temporary dyes, I did not start dyeing my hair until I was well into adulthood. And my hair started changing, and I don't know, maybe it was about at the 50:50 mark. You know, where it was about 50% my red, and then 50% of the turning of my hair, that my spouse actually said something to me about it. 

'cause he loved the colour of my hair so much, that he was disappointed that it was changing. I mean he wasn't like, you know, demanding. But he suggested it, and I was like, I guess I can, if that's what you'd like to see. I recognize I only see it when I look in the mirror, so sure, you know, I'll do that. 

So that's really when I started dyeing my hair. I didn't really care, you know. I was like, okay, fine, It's just hair. And then it became kind of a pain in the butt, you know, to do and maintain. And I started doing some of it on my own, and I did that okay. And I'd go back and forth between hairdresser.

And, actually my, hairdresser said, you know, Kim, why are you doing this? Your hair is gorgeous. And so then, I told her, I shared it with her. And she said, why don't you go back to him, and just talk to him about the beauty of this unique hair that you have, that nobody else has. And see what he says, see what he does. 

So, I did, and he kind of had mixed feelings about it. Basically, what I discovered was him seeing my hair turn grey was a reflection of him getting older.

Helen: Okay. And had his hair gone grey?

Kim: His hair had, yes. His hair definitely had gone grey.

Helen: That was okay, but yours couldn't?

Kim: No, he was not okay with it. His recognition, he saw a reflection of his ageing in what he saw in me. Tt reminded him that if my hairs, 'cause he didn't look at his hair in the mirror either, like during the day. He saw me turning grey, and it was him realizing he was getting older.

Helen: And he wasn't tempted to dye his own hair?

Kim: He did ask me about it and I was like, you know, I'm fine. I said, you know, you're losing your hair anyway. At some point you're gonna be almost bald, so it doesn't really matter. 

And also with the hair and him, 'cause he was balding. I said, if you do the comb over, then you're gonna wake up some morning, and all your hair's gonna be gone. Because I would rather see you bald, than see you try to hide what's happening with your hair. 

I said, I don't want that. I said, and I'm the one who sees it all the time. So, thank goodness he never did the comb over thing. I think he was afraid of waking up with no hair.

Helen: Which I guess is understandable.

Kim: Yeah. Yeah. It was not a threat it was a promise. I told him, I don't wanna do that. I don't. No.

Helen: So, you must have reached a point then where you just thought, I'm gonna let it grow out anyway.

Kim: Yeah, that was a little bit gradual because I let it grow out. And then I would kind of like lightly dye it again, since I always used temporary dyes, you know. I never wanted that line of demarcation. It happens anyway. But I just got tired of seeing that.

 'cause I always hated seeing that line of demarcation on anyone. All through my life It always bothered me to see it. And so, I didn't want that. And that's why I used temporary dyes.

Now I know that, you know, they're better. They're not great for you, but they're better. And then I just really thought, why am I doing this? You know. I don't have anything to prove to anybody. I don't like doing it. It's a pain. It's time consuming. It stinks. 

There's nothing about the experience that I like, except maybe getting my head massaged by somebody else, for, you know, five minutes. And that just wasn't worth it. And the more I looked into the dyes, the more I realized this really is ridiculous, and I could be harming myself, and don't even really realize it. So, stop that. 

I actually had boxes of dye, because I was doing it myself. And then finally I was just like, I'm done. I'm just gonna let it grow out. And when it finally grew out. You know, that line of demarcation was getting more and more pronounced, because my hair was turning lighter, and lighter, and lighter. 

And because of that, that additional annoying thing, really accelerated my stopping of the dye. When it finally all grew out, which took a bit of time, but when it finally all grew out and I looked at it, I was like, you know, this is pretty nice looking.

And I had not realized, that in my case, instead of my hair being quote grey or white, it was actually more blonde. And I thought, well, that's kind of a bonus. I went from being a light red head to a blonde. The very back is, you know, a little bit ashy, but I would not have realized that if I had continued to just dye my hair,

I never would've really realized that because of the contrast at the roots. You know, with that even subtle line of demarcation, it becomes more apparent as it gets longer. So, when I saw it all grow out, I was like, I will never go back and dye it. Now I'm in a different hair class, you know? And that's how I viewed it. 

And when I see other women with the salt and pepper or like this, you know, all kinds of hair colours are beautiful. You know, there's whites. There's different shades of like white. Some of them are more platinum. Some of them are, you know, like this actual grey, grey. And then some of them are like lighter greys. 

And so, when I now see people. With these grey hairs, you know, I think wow. You know, they have a unique head of hair, you know, all the way through. So, I'm happy with it.

Helen: I once had someone describe it to me as individual as your fingerprint, 

Kim: Yeah. And we discount our uniqueness. We really do. Over all, not just hair, but our physical presence. Yes, our fingerprints. Our personalities. Our life experience, the whole package. We are absolutely unique, and we do not embrace that enough. We don't understand our value as a unique person in every way, shape, or form.

Helen: Yeah. I think the beauty industry is partly responsible for that, because they obviously portray a particular image that you're supposed to try and conform to.

Kim: Right. Well, because they're trying to sell either makeup. Or they're trying to sell clothing, you know, the fashions have to change every year. They can't get people to go out and buy new stuff. I mean, that's the racket there, and it's worse in the past maybe, than now.

But we lived through an era where fashions from year to year were dramatically different. I think there's a more resistive population to that now. The changes aren't quite so dramatic as they used to be, but it's still there. You know, it's just trying to influence somebody into buying something that they don't necessarily need, and brainwashing them into thinking that they have to in order to fit in.

Helen: I don't disagree with you on any of that, but I'm gonna come back to your hair. First of all, can you remember when you found your first white hair, or paler hair?

Kim: No, it took quite a few before I saw it. Even though, you know, I was dealing with my hair every day. In my case, I was also like out in the sun, like in Arizona. So, I might get some just natural bleaching from the sun. And so, they were more camouflaged. 

It wasn't really until I moved away from the sunny area, that I began to see, oh, looky here. I didn't have the contrast like with a grey hair, and someone who's a, you know, brunette. It was more subtle. Much more subtle. When I saw them, I was like, eh, they blend in, I'm good.

Helen: My sister has red hair, and her hair's just kind of faded in colour over time, rather than having the stark contrast of suddenly a white hair appearing. 

Kim: That is a similar experience. Although I will say that I went through about 20 years of time with this gentle frosting of my hair. And during that time, just had an enormous number of people comment on it, in a positive way.

So, my experience on that transition was a bit different, than maybe somebody who, you know, where we don't embrace the beauty of the salt and pepper. Which I think is gorgeous.

Helen: I agree. So how old were you when you started dyeing your hair?

Kim: I did it a little bit in my forties. I don't think it was late thirties, I think it was forties. Then I stopped for a period of time. And then I resumed. I went at least a decade without doing any of it, and then went back to it. And it was kind of more often. It wasn't something that I did like religiously. 

And partially in the end, the reason that I kept dyeing it was I was fighting that line of demarcation, 'cause that's something I never wanted. I just wanted to have the dye let it fade out. And if you do that, and you continue to use those temporary dyes, what ends up happening is the ends of your hair end up kind of taking on a more permanent colour.

Helen: Yeah.

Kim: And the colour kind of progresses up to the top of your hair, and that looked kind of like an ombre, 

Helen: Yeah.

Kim: you know? And so, I got that for a while and I was like, oh, this is kind of neat. Then I changed to, nah, I really don't like that. You know, because if you look at a poodle, their hair's consistent, from tip to root. And I thought that's not natural. 

Plus, when I would put it up on top of my head, and I got all these different colours, you know. I thought, okay, that's pretty neat. But still I kind of felt like a candy cane, you know? Because my hair was quite long, so the difference in colour from root to tip was fairly significant.

And when I began to realize that, I didn't even really actually remember what colour my hair was. Although I did a very good job of trying to keep it the same colour. Because that contrast was getting to be so great at the root. I thought, well, I wonder what colour it really is now? Because I keep covering it up, so what is it?

That was also significant in my decision to just stop, let it grow out. Because I told myself, hey, if I stop, let it grow completely out, see what it looks like with no dye whatsoever in my hair, how I feel about it. If I'm good. I can always go back if I want, you know. So that's what I did. And then stopped. Just stopped altogether.

Helen: When did you stop?

Kim: Let's see here, probably post, was it post COVID? Might have been before that. Actually, now that I think about it, kind of interesting, I stopped dyeing my hair shortly after my brother, who I was taking care of. was diagnosed with cancer. Because I also did not want him exposed to anything else, and I was taking care of him in my home.

So, I recognized, you know, this is chemical process. And he was already having difficulty with even smelling shampoos, or body soaps, or the smell of toothpaste. All kinds of smells bothered him. It really made him sick. That was really the catalyst.

It was all these other decisions, all these other thought processes, and that really was the tipping point. You know, it's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that.

Helen: When was that?

Kim: So, it was 2019. Actually, it was a bit before that. And now that I think about it, 'cause I really haven't thought about it. So, the end was probably around 2014, 15. Somewhere around there.

Helen: Okay.

Kim: So, it was pre COVID.

Helen: How did you feel about it while it was growing out, when you had the line?

Kim: So, because I was using temporary dyes, it just continued to fade, and fade, and fade, and fade. So, by the time it all grew out, there really wasn't a line. It was more like that ombre. 

Helen: Yeah.

Kim: So there really wasn't a clear demarcation. How I kept checking was I would take my hair, put the ends of it on top of my hair, and see if they matched. That's really how I knew that it had all grown out.

Helen: Did you find the grow out process difficult, or were you just not bothered by it?

Kim: I didn't think too much about it. It was probably more of an observation. And that's probably because there were so many things that had happened in my life, that were significantly more important. Had more impact on me than that, than my hair. That I just had immediately accepted that this is what I was going to do.

And then it just became a matter of just watching the progress. Oh look, we're almost there. Oh look, we're getting closer. How about that? So it was more of an observation, you know. 

Plus, I was at the time, now that I think about it, I was also distracted by I'm taking care of somebody who is the closest person to me in my entire life. That I will most likely lose at some point, and I'm taking care of him. My brother. 

And then I was also taking care of my mother at the same time. And I was admiring her salt and pepper hair. And I would fix her hair, and French braid it, and get all these interesting patterns because of the braids. And then I would put decorations in her hair, like, not necessarily clips, but the combs that had like pearl beads that were kind of grey. 

And really just celebrating her hair, and keeping her feeling good. 'cause she was from the Golden Era. And hair was extremely important, you know, with the Beehive, and all the transitions that she made. So having her hair fixed up, 'cause my mom was always very particular about her hair. 

So, I think all of those things were a blessed distraction for me. Because I had other things that I'd had to tend to that were much more important than, you know, my hair growing out.

Helen: Which I can completely understand now that you've explained it. Your focus was rightly elsewhere. How is the condition of your hair now that it's no longer got dye in it?

Kim: So, it's always been pretty good. My hair is very, very super fine and it tends to be porous. In my case, I always have to make sure that I'm doing something that is going to enhance my hair. And conditioners not enough. 

I have to pay attention to the moisture content in my hair. Otherwise, it'll be frizzy. And heaven forbid if it's humid, that exaggerates it to no end. So, I have to do things that are going to soak into my hair, and repair the internal bond, the protein bonds inside my hair. The audience may or may not be familiar with keratin processes, but that's an external process on the hair.

So, there are products out there that can handle the inside of the hair, and repair those protein bonds. And then also the outside. So, when I do that, and doing them both is great. You do the one that handles the inside first, and then the keratin, 'cause that actually coats the hair. Then my hair is just like corn silk.

Helen: How often do you do that?

Kim: I really only do the keratin about once every six months. And I precede that with the internal protein bonding process. I just don't wanna mention any particular product, because I think that's probably inappropriate.

Helen: I don't mind if you do, because I think if people genuinely believe in a particular product, then that's fair enough.

Kim: So, there's a product line on the market. It's been out there for a couple of years. They do have trademarks and they have clinical data to demonstrate its efficacy. And so, one of the products that you may have heard about is K18, that product actually works on the inside of your hair.

They have a wide range of products, so you just need to do some investigation, and see which product is probably best for you. But the product actually does work. It's K18, and that actually repairs the protein bonds inside the hair. So, you'll see a noticeable difference.

And then, what's interesting is that you can then use a keratin process on top of that. And so, now you're repairing the inside. And then that keratin, you know, it seals all the outside scales of your hair. It smooths those down. Yes, it'll reduce curls if you do that, but I have wavy hair and I'm fine with it being pen straight.

If you have curls, then the K18 is gonna help give your curls more bounce. And so, your hair will look better. I mean, it just will. It may take a couple of treatments for that to happen. But I have found that product line to be a wonderful, addition, and particularly for my hair.

Helen: Another question about your hair then. Your hair's quite long, isn't it?

Kim: It is, right now it is probably, from the bottom of my ears, it's probably 14 inches.

Helen: Have you ever been tempted to have it cut short since you've gone grey?

Kim: Not since I've gone grey. There was a period of time I cut it into what we used to call a Pixie. So I went from middle of my back to cut it all off, donated the hair. And you know, when people saw me, they really didn't recognize me. It was a double take to like, Kim, is that you?

In fact, I was serving in the army. And I had made this dramatic change. And plus, in addition to that my skin is really light. And so, I had developed this deep tan. Which everybody thought that I could not do, because I was redhead, but I developed this cinnamon colour.

When they saw me leave. I had really long hair, it was the light red. You know, a very white girl. And when I came back, I was muscular. I had this deep cinnamon colour, and a Pixie haircut. And in fact, my own parents, meeting me at the airport, walked right past me, and I said, Mom, Dad.

And they turned around, and they were like looking for me. And when they finally realized, they looked at me, and they were like, you look so much different. But yes, my own parents, that was definitely a memorable moment, to not be recognized by my own parents. But yeah, so I cut it into a Pixie then.

Now since it's turned grey, I like putting my hair up, because I can get it all out of my face. I like that. I do like having it down. But that is definitely not while I'm working. If I'm working, I want it up. I want it up, and I want it outta my way. That way, when I overheat, I don't have to worry about the hair, like sticking to my neck, and all that. So, I do like having it up, and out of the way.

Helen: Again, completely with you there. 'cause my hair's kind of halfway down my back. When it's hot, it's always tied up. 

One last question. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice or tips for them?

Kim: Oh, do it. Embrace it. You make a decision, be happy with it, and go do it. You know, it's your hair. I think that most people would actually love it once they do it. 

And it's kind of like that little rebel, you know, like I don't have to do what society thinks that I should do. I'm gonna do what I wanna do. You know, so I think everyone should have that little rebel, for their own self-care. You know, it's part of you, and growing out you may actually like it once you do. You can always go dye it again.

Helen: This is true. I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you.

Kim: It's been great talking to you too, Helen. Thank you for the invite. Appreciate you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.