Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Dr Juno Quaintrell. She's the founder of Eden Rooted, which helps businesses and individuals establish a user-friendly everyday relationship with nature by means of courses, workshops, coaching, and creating natural gardens. Having grown up close to nature, with a PhD in anthropology and musicology, and a background in teaching, lecturing and the arts, Juno's research into relationships between humans and our earth has taken her around the World.

What's an intriguing intro? Good morning, Juno.

Juno: Good morning, Helen. It's lovely to meet you, again.

Helen: I am gonna start by taking you right back to your childhood. What was your hair like when you were a child?

Juno: Oh, my goodness. It was very thick, very dark brown. It was so thick that I couldn't make the plaits that I really longed for. Because by the time I had plaited my massively thick hair, it had shortened by about three quarters, and was just a kind of little stump with only three plaits. So, I used to really envy people their less hairy hair.

It was very, very dark. I have come from two families of very generously hairy people, who also managed to keep their colour until really quite late. My Grandma was well into her seventies before she started losing her brown hair, and went going grey. Yes, so I had a lot of hair, like the rest of my family, and it was dark brown.

Helen: They sound pretty much like my Mum. My Mum has very dark hair and she didn't go grey until her seventies.

Juno: Yes. It's amazing, isn't it? 

Helen: So how long was your hair?

Juno: When I didn't try and plait, it was almost down to my waist. When I tried to plait, it was almost to my shoulders.

Helen: That must have taken ages to dry when you washed it?

Juno: It really did. Yes, it was very, very thick and very endlessly needing of all sorts of care, brushing.

Helen: Was it curly or was it just straight?

Juno: No, it was mostly straight, but it had a bit of a wave in it.

Helen: And, did you ever colour it when you were younger?

Juno: Yes, I did. I was a child of the Sixties and Seventies, so I was massively into henna. I used to love henna even though it was like a cow pat to deal with. I used a lot of henna from my late teens onwards, but I didn't actually start using any other kind of colour until I was in my forties.

Helen: When did you find your first grey hair, or white hair?

Juno: I was thinking about this because I don't think I found one at all until I was in my mid-forties. And then I started using these wash-in, was-out colours, and I went for the maroons, that sort of thing. Really not natural at all. And I alternated between using those colours, and going back to henna, for quite some time. 

I knew quite a lot of people who had been really quite white, had really very white hair from when they were in their twenties. And I always thought that looked really amazing, and I really wanted to have the white hair. 

I wasn't particularly keen on being salt and peppery. And I assumed I'd be going into the salt and pepper phase quite quickly, and then coming out white. So, my plan was to colour it until it was all white, and then have a big reveal have it cut off, and have really white hair with a great haircut. 

But it didn't really go that way, and I carried on colouring it probably for another 10 years or so. And in that time my marriage ended, and I wanted to try and get a career for myself, and I was about 50 at this stage and really worried about, you know, knowing how difficult it can be for older women to start a career at that sort of age. And the way that society views, generally older people trying to get into the workplace, doing interesting things.

I wanted to try and keep myself as young looking as possible. So, I thought that my hair was the key to that, and I really got quite devoted to the upkeep of the colour in my hair at that stage, with a lot of professional colouring, and highlights, and things. 

So, then the colouring got off to be quite a serious enterprise when I was about 50, and I kept on colouring my hair quite a while.

I found that it was costly, and it was time-consuming, and I didn't really have the resources for either of those. And also, I found it was making my head itch, and my hair was beginning to look thinner as well. I don’t know if it was that, or whether it was actually genuinely thinning, or whether it was the colour was making it look thinner because it was a contrast with my scalp.

But anyway, I began to pause on what I was thinking about how I should deal with my hair.

Helen: I'm gonna take you back to a few things there, 'cause that was quite fascinating for me. So, do you think having the coloured hair did help you start the career?

Juno: Well, no, I never really got it started. I did the PhD, I had a job which was promised to me for when I finished it. For which I was invited to write the job description, and all that kind of thing, but then they went and gave it to a young postgraduate. They didn't give it to me after all.

And I was too late to apply for jobs in that round. I started applying for all sorts of other jobs and I didn't get any of them. So, whether it was my hair or anything else, I don't know. But the hair certainly didn't make me any job getting promises.

Helen: But you sound like you were sort of stressing over the roots when they started to come through and feeling the need to cover them?

Juno: Yeah, I felt that I needed to try and stay on top of my appearance really. 

Around about this time I'd been doing a lot of research around the World, and meeting people from all sorts of communities where they just didn't have this sort of attitude to age. 

And so, at around about the time I was beginning to find that the colouring was becoming a problem for me. I was also meeting people who just thought they were powerful and beautiful. You know, anyway, and of course they were, as was I, I just lost sight of that.

Helen: So, is that kind of one of the catalysts for you choosing to stop dyeing it?

Juno: Yes, it was. I think it was just really, a good rain cheque on where I was going with this. It wasn't something I could afford to do. I don't believe stepping back that it was actually helping me at all. It certainly wasn't making me look younger at all. And that wasn't the issue, I think. So, I decided at that point to let it go.

Helen: Were you using temporary colours or permanent colours at that time?

Juno: No, there were permanent colours at that stage. So, they really did need looking after.

Helen: So, you must have had a line then when you grew it out?

Juno: Yes, yes, that's right. So, I really did have to get this done quite frequently.

Helen: How did you feel during the grow out process then when you had that line?

Juno: Firstly, I started using temporary colours, which would kind of cover it over. I didn't like the line. But I always made sure I had a nice haircut. I began to look after myself better in other ways as well, making sure that I was keeping fit and things. 

I hadn't taken a particular notice of what was going around in the fashion world or anything at that stage. But I started to notice what other people were wearing too. And I did actually start taking more care of how I was looking while my hair was growing out. 

And it might have been a bit stripy, but generally speaking, I had begun just to be more interested, and also enjoy the whole process more. So, although I didn't like the line going down, I had begun to enjoy how I was looking.

Helen: At the moment, your hair's just below your shoulders, isn't it? 

Juno: Yes.

Helen: Did you have it cut shorter at all during the grow out process?

Juno: Yes, I had a short Bob. That was the shortest I went. 

Mostly I went a bit longer because I had had short hair for most of my adult life in the end. And I wanted to have long hair again, or longer hair. And I have felt that it suits me better. I just enjoy having it.

And I know that a lot of people feel as they get older that it's easier to manage when it's shorter, and I'm sure it is. But actually, I enjoy having my longer hair. But I don't wear it particularly very long.

Helen: When did you do your grow out?

Juno: It started I suppose it's been growing out now for probably about seven years.

Helen: Okay, so just before COVID then?

Juno: Yes. Just before. COVID was sort of the end of it really, the end of the grow out. So sometime around then, I lost the last of it. And everything that's happened since is it as it is.

Helen: And do you feel that it's feeling thicker and healthier again since you stop dyeing it?

Juno: Oh yes, definitely. I mean, one of my daughters commented that it is really shiny looking at the moment, and I was so pleased. I can't tell you how pleased I was my daughter said my hair was looking shiny.

Helen: Do you use any particular shampoos and conditioners to look after it?

Juno: I really can't work out what's best for me. Anyone that comes into my bathroom will be shocked and horrified at the array of shampoos of various kinds. And what I usually use is just a mixture of stuff.

I don't use conditioner very often because I think that just makes it a bit greasy. But I do a lot of hand smoothing.

Helen: And you don't use any of the purple shampoos or anything like that?

Juno: No, no, nothing like that. I don't actually think I've got enough white hair yet to be able to do that. There's still quite a lot of brown in there. 

I'll be a very cheerful user of pinks, and blues, and purples, and whatever once it is white. I'm still looking forward to having that very white hair. I can't wait to have very white hair.

Helen: Yeah. Bad news is it might never happen.

Juno: I know. My Nana never had her white hair, so.

Helen: My Mum's 89, and I think I've probably got more white hair than she has.

Juno: Oh, really? 

Helen: Yeah.

Juno: So, when did you start, when did you start finding your silvers?

Helen: Oh, my Mum found my first one when I was 18. 

Juno: Oh, my goodness. How did you feel?

Helen: Well, I was worried if I'm absolutely honest. 'cause my Dad's mother went grey really early, and she had like absolutely white hair. And I think in your twenties that's kind of hard to cope with.

Juno: Yes.

Helen: But it has been very, very gradual. It's just kind of started with like a Malon streak at the front, and then gradually gone from there. Even now there's a lot of dark in the back. It's basically the underneath and the front edge that's white with mine.

Juno: So, it was still progressive from when you were 18? That's when it started. It wasn't a one off.

Helen: No. I didn't get many more, but like in my twenties I started to get a patch at the front on my temples.

Juno: Oh, yeah.

Helen: And that was kind of how it was like twenties and early thirties. And then I started dyeing it in my thirties with highlights and stuff. But it's all gone now, and I much prefer it without the highlight or the colour.

Juno: Yes. Well, it's nice hair, isn't it? It’s lovely hair. So that's the thing, having nice, healthy hair.

Helen: How did your friends and family react when you decided to go grey?

Juno: Do you know, I don't know that anyone ever actually talked about it. Don't think my children mentioned it, and I don't think I mentioned it to them. I mean, obviously they noticed. 

But I do think that the fact that it partly coincided with COVID probably helped me a lot, because everyone was letting their hair grow out then. I did do a few self-cuts. They were definitely not successful. 

And there was one time I had a cut with an unfamiliar hairdresser, and I came away really not feeling like myself. And I sat there with a beer and a pen knife cutting. Cutting my hair. Anything I've done to my hair, that's probably the worst I've done to my hair.

Helen: Scissors are available. Slightly different question now. How do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Juno: My research, meeting all those women, seeing how people around the World deal with the life cycles, and how they feel that they're part of nature, and not separate, and fighting a natural process, has really helped me. 

I mean, they do all sorts of things like having proper Rights of passage, where they sort of thank the past, and move on to the new. Welcoming all the opportunities that of the path you are on, and this new phase or being. It's that the process of acceptance, has made to me a huge difference. 

When I was getting into sort of looking at magazines and noticing what people were wearing and all that kind of thing, that was all part of it and it made the whole thing much more enjoyable.

So, I feel that now, although when I was post-divorce, trying to start a career, worrying about being old it was a difficult time. And I was also menopausal around that time. So, one way and another, it was a difficult time. 

And I feel that the people that I met when I was doing my research, kind of, it sounds a bit, over the top to say saved me, but they certainly gave me. I began to see how, skewed our view of ageing is. You know, it is a totally natural process. 

Our problem is with accepting it as a time of new opportunities. Blessing and loving our body, however it is, you know. Whether it's the young firm, one that's got all the energy, and is flexible, and you know. Whether it's that one, or whether it's the older one full of wisdom, and life experience, and just a different kind of beauty.

I mean, older people's faces when they're settled, you know, they wear that, that's there on their face. It makes for a lovely face. And sort of an outer beauty, a thing that go very much hand in hand, I think. 

And I feel quite relaxed now about the ageing process. I'm happy with my hair. I'm happy that my life has plenty of opportunities left for me, that I'm going to carry on seeing them. And I would say to other people as well, start taking real pleasure. Don't write yourself off because you're getting older, you know, it is part of the process, but you might still have several decades in you yet.

There's no point giving in, and sort of bewailing the loss of your youth. Because your older age will bring other chances, other opportunities, new friends. You might be able to find a new purpose in life. Why not? Or find a passion project that you've had waiting around for a lifetime.

And this is a great time to do it. I mean, now is a great time to do it, 'cause you don't want to not do it at all. All of this is still open to you. So, I think we thank the past, and we welcome the future, and, our New Self to come in with it.

Helen: I really like that attitude. Is there anywhere in particular that you visited that they really celebrate age?

Juno: The one that I think of most is, I went to a reservation, a First Nation American reservation. And, my host there was, Cherokee Nation. And the level of wisdom she had was quite astonishing, the way that she could read people.

The way that Elders in that society, when they see the youngsters coming through, when the youngsters are born, the elders are watching them from the first to spot their gifts. And they help them to be mentored by all the right people to bring through their gifts. 

So, the Elders are very much involved in society, right from the youngest right to the very end. And they're very much respected for their opinions, for their views, for their wisdom. I found that really inspiring. 

I would like very much if we could be a bit more like that. You know, rather than, rather than our 50-year-old women sort of suddenly panicking that they're, you know, and 50 is nothing. 50 is nothing. Nobody should be panicking at 50 that they're on the scrap heap, you know?

Helen: Yeah. I do think that people can feel a little bit, more isolated as they age in our society.

Juno: Yes, yes, absolutely. And of course, you don't do that if you've got properly integrated generations of all levels.

Helen: You've told me kind of a little bit already, has what you wear changed as you've gone grey?

Juno: Now you are looking at me wearing my oldest jumper and my oldest jeans, and that's because I'm living in a building site where I don't actually have running water downstairs. 

But yes, I started thinking about it more. Naturally, I've always thought I had great style. But I think looking back, I didn't have great style. I don't know if I've got great style now, but I do care about how I put things together, especially if anyone's going to see me. 

I try to do little things like put in earrings every day, which I didn't, whether anyone's gonna see me or not. I've thought about whether I really want to be wearing jeans all the time and whether it shouldn't occasionally be a dress, you know? I am dressing differently, but, it's hard to think of at the moment while I'm in a building site.

Helen: What about colours? 'cause obviously, the old stereotype is you go grey, cut your hair short, and wear beige. Are you buying into that one?

Juno: I'm very much a pink girl. I think that's another stereotype though. I did actually go and have my colours done, right back at the beginning of this process. I didn't really know what suited me, and I went to see a lovely lady down in Devon who, took me through the whole sort of colour thing.

And it was a revelation. I found generally speaking, I did know what suited me. And beige isn't one of them.

Helen: But pink is?

Juno: Pink is, pink is depending on the pink mind. I like bright colours, but I think I might be learning to tone it down slightly 

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. So, if somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice and tips would you have for them?

Juno: I would say that's great. They'll look fabulous. They really will. And go for it. But of course, it doesn't really matter. If at any point you just feel that's not really you anymore, then that's up to you as well. 

I found it really helpful to consciously say, thank you and goodbye to that past me, and to positively embrace the new me that was going to look completely different. How long it took me to get there, to enjoy the whole process. 

Maybe to have a proper think about how you would like to look, and the other things you would like to do with your life and how you would like to be. And just make it part of a total revamp.

Maybe go off and stay in a hotel or something, or a field in a tent, and take some notebooks and spend some time thinking about it. Watch some podcasts and things, listen to some podcasts. And find some other people maybe on Pinterest and just get a few ideas of clothes and things.

For myself, I found it helpful to make a thing of it, and to consciously enjoy it.

Helen: Thank you very much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Juno: Thank you, Helen. It's been lovely talking to you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.