Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Clare Downham. She's a mentor and former head teacher who helps high achieving professionals and business owners create a well-run, good feeling business. Her work blends practical clarity with an inside out understanding of how our experience is created, guiding people to success that feels calm, authentic, and sustainable.

Hello, Clare. How are you?

Clare: Hello, Helen. I'm well, thank you. And thank you so much for having me.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Clare: Well, first of all, mine are white in the main. No, I don't think I can. They've just sort of gradually appeared, and they're mostly underneath my hair at the moment. They're kind of under here.

But I guess what's happened is, 'cause I was dyeing it for a long time, I don't think they came until I allowed the dye to grow out actually. Because I suspect they just hid it very well. Because I'm quite fair, and I was getting white hairs, and the highlights were probably kind of looking like a blending in process. 

It was probably only when I stopped dyeing it that I started to notice the white hairs coming through, because I wasn't dyeing it because of grey or white. I was dyeing it because I was a real blonde blonde when I was younger. And then all of a sudden, I looked at myself and I thought, I don't really look really blonde anymore. And I just wanted the blonde back. 

So, I didn't start dyeing because of the arrival of grey hair or white hair. It was because I'd lost the colour that I recognized as being me at the time. So, I guess only when I started to let go of that process of dyeing my hair, did I start to notice the white hairs.

Helen: What age did you start dyeing it blonde?

Clare: Ooh, I'm gonna say maybe in my thirties, my late thirties probably. Yeah, I'd say probably about then. 'cause I've stopped dyeing it quite a long time ago, and I'm 54 now.

Helen: Can you remember how long you dyed it for?

Clare: Probably a good, shall we count pounds or years? Yeah, a good few-years, probably a decade I would've thought maybe. Maybe not quite that long. But yeah, a good while.

Helen: I definitely don't think we wanna count in pounds. 

Clare: No, no, no.

Helen: It's probably not a number any of us ever wanna know.

Clare: No, no, definitely not.

Helen: So why did you decide to stop dyeing it?

Clare: I had connected with a lady who sells Tropic Skincare. She's called Katie Tyler, and she had, I mean, when I say red hair, it was really bright red hair. Ginger, I suppose you'd call it. And she said to me, she said, I'm gonna grow it out. 

And she said, because she was saying to people, you know, your skin's your biggest organ, don't put chemicals on your skin. And then literally every few weeks she was having to go and get this, obviously this dye painted onto a scalp to rid of her grey. 

And she said, it just doesn't make sense anymore. Now that I know what I know about chemicals in our environment, and in our skin, and particularly when you going through the menopause, you wanna be kind of cleaning up in that regard.

So, she literally grew it out, like she just let it grow out, and it just was this dramatic line going down the side of her head. And it was that. It was because I very much have moved towards natural skincare, natural cleaning products, natural everything. 

That again, for me, it didn't make sense to be going and having this nasty, toxic chemical put on my scalp every few weeks. So yeah, so I just stopped.

Helen: And you only had highlights anyway, didn't you? You said.

Clare: Yeah, I didn't have block colour anyway. I had highlights, so it wasn't quite so dramatic, I suppose.

Helen: When you were growing out?

Clare: Yeah, when I was growing it out,

Helen: Did you feel self-conscious about it when you were growing out?

Clare: No, I didn't actually. But then I would say self-consciousness as a thing for me, has fallen away quite a lot in the last few years. 

I've been with my fiancé 10 years, and I definitely was dyeing it when we met. There's pictures of us together with my very sleek little blonde Bob, so I was dyeing it then. So, it's while I've been with him at some point, probably maybe five or so years ago when I stopped, maybe a little bit more than that. 

And I guess at the same time I was going through quite a period of personal growth, and caring a lot less about what other people think about me. I've seen that has so dramatically fallen away in the last few years. So, I really don't give a stuff about stuff like that anymore. Like, I really don't. 

And I do know, I've read some stuff about you know, the reducing of oestrogen, and how that can bring about a little bit of like, well, you know, I'm not in the nurturing phase anymore, so I don't really care what you all think about me.

And I don't generally feel self-conscious, or give a damn what other people think these days really.

Helen: And you don't have a ton of grey hair, or white hair, just at the front, isn't it?

Clare: Well, yeah, it's all over the place. There's quite a lot underneath. There's some big stripes coming down like either side here. 

They show up more, you know, just after I've washed it. And I tend to leave it to dry curly, so when it dries curly, you can definitely see more of that coming through. So it is, yeah, it's coming through now. Probably can't see it as well on camera than you can in real life.

Helen: Would you say the condition of your hair is better, or worse, since you stopped dyeing it?

Clare: That's a tricky one because my hair has changed a lot through the menopause. It's very much changed in its texture, and the way it is. I have an underactive thyroid as well, so I do lose quite a lot of hair. 

But yeah, I would say it probably is in better nick than it was when I was putting all those chemicals. And even if it isn't, for me, what's even more important than that is it's just the health of what I'm putting into, and on my body is so important to me. It doesn't really matter so much that side of it, as I am now not putting those chemicals onto my skin, into my body. And that feels really good. 

So yeah, it probably is in better condition. More importantly, probably the rest of my body's in better condition. I'm not putting all that rubbish in it, you know?

Helen: Are you feeling healthier for the change then?

Clare: Well, I think it's probably reducing all the chemicals, and you know, generally having a better diet, and all that kind of thing, has probably helped me navigate through the menopause without any medical intervention at all. So, I've managed to not take HRT and you know, it's been up and down a bit, but it's not been an awful experience really.

But then I suppose the other thing that's happened is I've just gained a more light-hearted view of life in general. So, I've generally kept humour at the heart of it all. You know, when I've been sweating, and everybody else is sat freezing in the kitchen, I'm like still in the kitchen door going sorry folks, you’ll just have to put up with this freezing cold draft while I try and cool off, kind of thing. 

I've kept laughing about it, rather than being kind of immediately tight and stressed about it. So, I guess I'm just generally healthier, I would say. Because of all the changes I've made over the last few years.

Helen: How do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Clare: Yeah. Pretty good really. 

I think the western world has bought into some actual nonsense about ageing. That is beyond ridiculous now. Particularly women, I would say. Don't really think the men have cottoned onto this thing that they're supposed to stay looking young. They don't seem to care so much. It's definitely all directed at women. 

It's not just ageing, it's body size. You know, there's so many things that we think are right, and they're not. They're just made up from years of conditioning from the past, plus all the absolute rubbish on social media, and stuff like that. And I just don't generally buy into so much of that stuff anymore.

I know that if I get caught up in a story about how I'm not supposed to be getting older, well first of all, that's just nonsense. I love Byron Katie and her stuff in her book Loving what is, she says, you know. Basically, resistance is futile. You know, it's a battle you're never gonna win.

You know, life is lifeing. We are experiencing that. And if we are in resistance to that, we are gonna have a right old, horrible time, quite frankly. And as I say, I don't really care very much, not in a horrible way, but about what other people think about me, as much as I did when I was younger.

Helen: Are you doing anything to age healthily apart from the cleaning up your diet, and the chemicals that you're putting on your skin?

Clare: Oh, all the things. Pretty much daily, well, five days a week weight training. Walking 5 to 7,000 steps a day. 

Eating exceptionally well. I worked with a nutritionist recently and she was like, your diet's like amazing. Like it is pretty good. I eat vegetables for breakfast. So, yeah, my diet, and just generally not getting myself wound up about things.

Stress is after all, pretty much the biggest killer. And I've been through my own journey with stress. I burnt out in 2015, so epically that I didn't work for a year. So, I've done that. I don't wanna do that again. So, I think, yeah, recognizing when my state of mind is not good, and knowing ways that help me to settle.

All of it suits the physical, and the emotional side, the psychological side. It's all part of that journey, I think.

Helen: I don't disagree with you, and I'm gonna dig a little deeper on some of the things. So, weight training, what are you doing for weight training?

Clare: So, I have this lovely lady who I follow on YouTube. She's called Fitness with P J. She's a Canadian lady. And it's all very much balance, strength, using hand weights at home.  I'm not a gym person. I like to just be able to come downstairs, crack on. Do that, do some yoga sometimes, very much kind listen to my body.

So, if I wake up and I'm a bit neh, you know, 'cause there's a full moon or a new moon or some other shenanigans probably. I'll do like a gentle yoga, or I'll do something different. So, I'm very tuned in. You know, like the other day I did like a leg thing, and the next day it was not a leg day particularly, let's listen to my body, and do something more upper body.

But what I love about her, and I didn't realize it until recently. I recently listened to a book called “You are not a before picture”, that's mostly about weight. But it really is about all this stuff we're talking about here. Where it's like, you know, we're all waiting to look different before we can step out there, do what we wanna do, wear we wanna wear.

And you know, her stuff's mostly about weight. Alex Light, she's called. And then when I was doing the workouts with Fitness with P J, I suddenly realized that she never mentioned weight. She doesn't mention toning or weight. She talks about strength, and balance, and functional moves.

And let's make it so that you can still get off your backside off a chair as you get older. It's really just the language around what she says. And I hadn't really noticed it until I'd, you know, listened to this book that was all about, the obsession with weight loss and that being the most important thing, rather than being strong and healthy, which is the much more important thing.

Helen: Agreed. I'm finding the whole environment of the weight loss jabs at the moment, just very terrifyingly scary.

Clare: It's insane. All of it's insane, isn't it? I mean, I was chatting to Bruce's, my fiancé this morning. The walk that we go on, we often see a rat, unfortunately. There's a little bush, and it was a bit near dawn. So, they were like scuttling across and we talked, what's wrong with rats anyway?

Why don't we like 'em? I said, well, because they did the Plague. They spread the Plague. And then we talked about Botulism. And I went, oh and that's what they make Botox out of. And He's like, what? That they actually make out a Botulism, which is like horrible, it’s the Plague, basically. And then people inject that into their faces, and he was like, what the heck? That's just insane. 

So yeah, it is just insane. It's all insane. I'm saying that with a whole ton of compassion for the people who in all innocence, believe that that is how they're gonna make themselves happy. Because that's all it is. It's all what do I need to do to make myself feel better about myself, and therefore happier, or more at peace, or whatever.

And that's why I think when people start on that path of, you know, injecting things in their face, or facial surgery, or whatever. It's because, you know, the reason they do more and more of it, is because, of course you get a bit put in, you’re all right for a bit, and then you don't like it anymore.

Or you don't like another bit of yourself. So, you re-focus your attention onto something else. And it's all what you'd call, in my understanding, and the understanding that I coach from, called the outside in. I'd call that the outside in misunderstanding. That anything outside of you can make you feel better. Because it can't fundamentally, don't work that way.

Helen: I'm not gonna disagree with you. I've worked my whole career in marketing, and I'm gonna say the whole thing is just a massive marketing construct designed to make people spend money. And the way to do that is to make them feel bad about themselves, which is just very sad.

Clare: Very, very sad. I agree.

Helen: Coming on to a slightly lighter topic, would you say your style has evolved as you've chosen to go grey and accept yourself more at all?

Clare: Yeah, and, maybe not so much like, I've just accepted that my hair is changing colour and I just, I really, again, I don't really care. 

However, I did recently get very caught up in my weight, and where that was. And I noticed that I was holding everything back, like not going shopping for clothes. And not, you know, you and I met through Rachel, and I've got a photo shoot booked with her, and I wasn't doing that because I'm waiting to have lost this couple of stone.

Anyway, at some point, probably from listening to that book, I just went this is ridiculous. I'm not gonna stop living my life. I'm gonna go and buy some flipping clothes. So, I did. 

And now I've just filled in the forms, you know, the paperwork that Rachel wants, before we do the photo shoot. And I couldn't believe how much I was holding, yeah, my life in a, just like frozen really, waiting to feel different about myself. But as that fell away, I'm now embracing different clothes, and stuff. 

I did get my colours done a few years ago. And I don't think that will have changed. I'm an autumn, so I do kind of wear the autumn colours, yeah, all the time really. And I do think they suit me. So, I'll stick with that for now. But yeah, I do feel more at ease with that kind of thing now. 

Helen: I'm guessing you're not dressing quite as formally either. Now that you're not a head teacher?

Clare: Oh no. I mean, I probably did still, like when I went networking and stuff, I was probably the smarter end of things. But I'd say since Lockdown, I have got my very comfortable floppy joggers as we call them in this house on the bottom half. 

Because why would you not wanna be comfortable? And I'd say comfort has probably just become so much more important to me. And again, because I don't care what the people think, I tend to wear, you know, when we go out for our walks, I don't really bother about what I'm wearing. 

I wanna be comfortable, and dry, and warm enough, or cool enough, of course is often the case for me as I get hot very quickly. So, yeah, stuff just doesn't matter really as much as it seemed to used to matter.

Helen: I've been networking this morning and I'm wearing jeans, it's kind of like I'm still gonna wear what's comfy.

Clare: Yeah, yeah, I do a lot of net walking now and that of course is like you come as you are kind of thing. Because you go walk up a hill, or you're out in the wet and the rain, so not dressing up for that.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice or tips for them?

Clare: Well, I think the main thing with anything, you know, going grey, or whatever it is. I suspect for many people that comes from a sort of intuitive nudge, a sort of readiness to take that step. Something has come through, probably insightfully that they've seen around that.

Now, what tends to come with an insight, or a bit of intuition, or wisdom is a whole heap of predictable BS. Where the inner critical voice will come in and say, oh no, you can't do that. You're gonna look stupid. You dah, dah, dah, dah. You know? And it'll try to keep us safe in the space where we've felt safe, probably because probably D our hair has made us feel, we've done it for safety, we've done it 'cause we want to fit in, and we wanna look right, and there's all this judgment we believe around us on social media, et cetera.

So, I would say just watch out, just know that that's probably going to happen. 'cause I think forewarned is forearmed. That as we move almost to the edge of our comfort zone, you know, the inner critic comes in. I feel like it's the gatekeeper for the comfort zone. You know, it sits on the edge going, oh no, don't, don't, don't come, don't come out here, you're gonna die, you know.

So, you will get that. And there will probably be some discomfort, and there'll probably be some times when it seems too hard. But if it's really what you want, and you're feeling guided in that direction. Then pause, take a breath, and keep probably pausing, and taking breath as you go through it. 'cause you will probably go through an expected emotional up and down with it. 

Like some days you'll look in the mirror and go, ho, ho, no, this is not good. But know that, that's just thought, and emotions are transient. They're gonna pass. And then you'll feel better about it again, and you will go through that up and down journey as you're going through that transition. And that's normal.

Helen: A couple of things I was gonna add to that. First of all, you will have bad hair days as you grow out. But then you had bad hair days before. So that's no different. And I think the other thing for me is, a lot of the judgment that we anticipate is in our heads, and never actually happens.

Clare: Yeah, it's that old inner critic that pretends to us that it's what other people are thinking, and we've no idea what other people are thinking. And even if people say things, that's in the moment. Somebody says something on social media, they've forgotten about it, and gone off to have their tea.

Do you know what I mean? They’re not. We're going, oh no. Whereas that person's just had a moment of going, oh, you look awful. And then off they go, and they don't think about you again. That's their momentary thought as well. 

And other people's thinking has got nothing to do with us whatsoever. That is to do with their perception of the world. It has nothing to do with how you look. Literally nothing. Because two different people could look at you with your growing out of grey hair, or growing into your grey hair, and have completely different opinions. 

So how can that be about you? That has to be about them. Otherwise, everybody would have the same opinion of how your hair is, and they clearly don't, you know. It's just their nonsense, not yours. Their monkeys.

Helen: Cool. 

Clare: Totally.

Helen: Well, thanks so much for chatting to me. It's been fascinating hearing your story. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Clare: Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been lovely to be here.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.