Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye. 

Today I'm joined by Michelle Smith, a person-centred counsellor known for her intuitive, empathic approach. She supports clients in healing from toxic relationships and emotional trauma, helping them to rediscover self-worth and inner peace. 

Hello, Michelle. How are you?

Michelle: Good. Thanks. How are you?

Helen: I'm not bad. I've been to the gym this morning, so I'm a bit tired now. I'm gonna start by asking you, can you remember finding your first white hair?

Michelle: I was trying to think about this. And it would've been, I think I was mid to late twenties. Found it, thinking oh my God, that means I'm old, and pulled out straight away and then you know, you’re told ooh don’t pull them out because, you know, however many grow back place of it. 

Like I say, I can't pinpoint the exact moment, but I do remember, you know, seeing and thinking oh my God, I’m too young for this. Yeah.

Helen: Did you colour your hair at that point?

Michelle: Yeah, I coloured my hair. Did it myself. And then got the hairdresser to do it. And then I just left it for my hairdresser to do, and I didn't sort of touch box dyes. 

Helen: Had you experimented with colouring your hair before then in your teens or early twenties?

Michelle: Well, back in the day I used to use Sun In, the spray. I used to spray the front of my hair. That was probably, sort of, when I first started experimenting with putting something in my hair, you know, a colour of some description.

And then it developed from there, where I started using box dyes. I like saw my Mum doing it as well. So used to, yeah, just dye sort of the chocolate brown is what I started with. 

Helen: So, did you start with the Sun In when you found the white hair or before then?

Michelle: Oh, before then. It's probably early Eighties, when I started experimenting with that and, you know, just putting that in my hair, just to have a lighter shade at the front. Yeah, that was sort of in my teens.

Helen: How many years in total did you dye your hair for?

Michelle: Oh gosh. I probably dyed my hair in some shape or form, 40 years. ‘cause I’m 53, and I would say I was probably around 12, 13 when I started using Sun In, so yeah, probably about 40 years.

Helen: And what was the catalyst for you deciding to stop dyeing it?

Michelle: I would say probably Lockdown. Because going into Lockdown I had red hair. Like a sort of a deep red. And then obviously hairdressers shut, and my roots got longer, and they were quite grey. I still had some of my own colour and it was awful. And I just used to. And I hated it. And so, like tried to cover it up with doing my own thing. 

And then, I had really long hair at the time, and I basically had it all cut off. Cut short to the point where I had an undercut. So pretty much shaved at the back, and the side. And had no colour then in my hair, it’d all been cut out. 

And I thought, you know what, I don’t, I know my hair was in bad condition as well, and so, you know I just thought, you know what lets, cut out all that split ends and everything, and then just start again. 

And that's what I did. And I just thought, yeah, I’m going leave it, and go my natural colour, see how much grey I’ve got. I’ve got more grey at the front than the back.

Helen: So, it must have been quite a shock then going from long dyed brown hair to short grey hair?

Michelle: I didn't go from one day, you know, really long down my back, to then undercut and slightly longer on the top. I did go sort of shoulder length. 

Then I had it coloured with some bleach. So, it looked like my roots, you know, I hadn't got the growth showing through as such. And then my hair was still in bad condition, so I then said, just cut it off. Just cut it, so that I can get all this bleach out of it.

And I really liked it, at first. My Daughter's never really liked it short. But I did. But then I started to miss my long hair. So hence why I'm now grown it back. It's about shoulder length again. 

But yeah, it took some getting used to. And I think a lot of my family and friends were like, oh my God, what have you done? But I felt it was almost like a new chapter, you know, coming out Lockdown. 

I might as well have new hair as well as everything else that, you know, I've been doing through Lockdown. But yeah, I think most people were more shocked than I was. 

Helen: How long are you intending to grow it now?

Michelle: I'm just seeing how long I can get it.

Helen: You talked a little bit about your family, and their reaction, was the reaction to the going grey, or to cutting it short?

Michelle: Cutting it. 

The going grey, the only person I'd say that really sort of said, oh, I don't think you should go full grey is my Dad. Who was like, oh no, you know, you’ll look too old. But like I say, it hasn't gone, you know, I've got quite a lot at the front, but sort of the back, there's a lot of brown still.

My Husband hated it short. My Daughter hated it short. My Son, I don't think he was bothered either way really. 

My Daughter prefers it now. And she likes to style it for me. But she, also likes the fact that, I’ve got the grey. I've kind of just left it, you know, to just grow. She likes the fact that I've got bits of grey in it she says it makes my hair look good. When I straighten it, or whatever I’m doing. 

So yeah, she likes that. Now my Husband I don’t think he’s bothered about the colour, it’s just really that he preferred it longer on me than shorter.  

Helen: How about your friends?

Michelle: A lot of my friends have actually done a very similar thing. A group of my friends, sort of, we're all early or late fifties to early sixties. So, a lot of us have actually done a very similar thing, and sort of let the grey grow out. 

One of my closest friends, she has short hair, but it looks really, good. And I suppose she was kind of like an inspiration to do it, because she did it first, and I thought, yeah, I really like that. Just doing your own thing, you know.

Just like now I just think, oh, well, you know, I'm trendy. You know, it's like people actually pay, have hair this colour now and things. 

So yeah, my friends they were shocked. There were shocked when they saw my hair. 

But the colour now, I think it was worse when I was red, and then you could see like the grey roots. So, I don’t worry about it now, ‘cause like I say I ain’t got any, as such. So yeah, I don’t bother now.

Helen: You said, it wasn't in very good condition when you were dyeing it. Is it in better condition now?

Michelle: Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely in a lot better condition. 

I mean, sometimes I look in the mirror and I think, oh, it looks a bit wiry, and my hair goes frizzy. So, I've got naturally wavy hair, but years of straightening it took its toll really. 

And I think as well with the colour, because I'd had it stripped before, you know, to get the red, or get a black colour on. Nobody told me that black is like the worst colour to try and get out of your hair.

Sometimes I think, oh, is that the grey making it look that way? Or is it my actual hair? That still goes frizzy. 

But my daughter says, oh yeah Mum, you know, your hair is in very good condition. She does these tests with it, you know, pulls a piece out and then sees the elasticity of it, et cetera. And she's like, oh yeah, it's in good condition, so. But it feels it as well.

Helen: Are you using special shampoos and conditioners, or just normal ones?

Michelle: I was using one for silver hair, the purple shampoos. But I've been trying to get it to go curly again. So basically, I just had it air dry. My daughter will just blow dry it for me. But I have been using like a shampoo condition of curly hair.

Rather than the purple shampoo. But I’ll probably alternate, and get some more.

Helen: I've never used purple shampoo. 

Michelle: No. 

Helen: No. Just used my normal one. Maybe one day.

Michelle: Yeah. I don’t know if it really makes any difference or not. To be honest.

Helen: I think it depends on how much white hair you've got. I think if you've still got quite a lot of your natural colour, it makes a lot less difference than if you were have gone completely white.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. 

Helen: Would you say your style has changed in terms of the way you dress and things since you chose to go grey?

Michelle: Not really, no. In fact when I went shorter with my hair, I felt actually really, like trendy, you know? It was like, yeah. 

Somebody sort of knew me from when I had short hair. She was like, oh, yeah, I saw you, and I thought, oh, you're such a trendy woman, you know, I want you to be my friend. I'm like, oh, right, okay. You know? 

But I wouldn't say my style has changed really. The only thing now is obviously I can put it in a ponytail if I don't want to wash it. You know, that's probably about the difference.

Helen: What about the colours that you wear?

Michelle: I don't think so. No, I still wear, I like reds and, like blues, red, vibrant colours.

Helen: Some people say that some of the colours they used to wear, wash them out.

Michelle: Oh no. Yeah.

Helen: But you've not found that?

Michelle: No, not really. No.

Helen: And what about your makeup? Has that changed?

Michelle: Yeah, I don't really wear a lot now. I think some of that is to do with my skin as well. Like I find foundation quite cloggy, and it doesn't sit as well on my skin. So, I don't really wear that. 

All I wear is mascara and lipstick, and sometimes I do eyeliner as well. And that's really it. I don't use powders. But I think that's more possibly, like I say, due to my skin and sort of how it's changed since I've turned 50.

I just, yeah, I don't like how the foundation sits on, on my face, so I’ve kind of just left it out now. 

Helen: How do you feel about where you are at in the ageing process?

Michelle: I think it's changing, but so far, my fifties have been dreadful in my opinion, because I really think the menopause hit me hard. 

It was starting as I was sort of approaching 50. I felt dreadful as I turned sort 50. It was like, I just feel like I'm a husk of the person I was. I can't say just one thing that did it. I just thought, oh my God, is this it now? Am I gonna feel like this forever? 

And I suppose then, you know, I did look at my hair and think, oh, you know, I've gone so grey, and oh, you know, I'm like, oh, old. And just, felt, yeah, different. I just didn't feel like myself. 

But I'm starting to feel better now, than I have for a long time.

But I think, like I say, it was more sort of a hormonal balance for me. And, you know, yes okay, seeing my hair changing and going, oh yes, I haven't got my red hair anymore. I've got white or grey hair there. And it's, yeah, I'm getting older. Woe is me I think is where I was going with that, you know, at times.

Helen: Are you doing anything to age healthily?

Michelle: Trying to. So, I used to do a lot of strength training, and walking. I also did some running. I stopped it. 

And again, due to I think menopause, stopping the exercise, I put weight on. But now I'm very conscious of that, and I'm trying to change my eating habits. 

But also get back into the strength training because, you know, I've read a lot about it being very good for women of my age and older, sort of to help with osteoporosis, and you know, your bones and everything. 

Unfortunately, I also have rheumatoid arthritis, so that can impact what I can do at times. However, I, it’s stable with medication, but I still try to pace myself as it were.

So, I suppose yes, I'm very conscious changing my eating habits now, and looking after myself. I try and get good quality sleep. And I don’t tend to burn the candle at both ends now like I used to do. 

So yeah, so I feel I’m fine. Again, I don’t know whether this is coming out the other side of whatever it is I felt going into menopause. I dunno. But yeah, I feel now is a good time to look at my habits and things. And make better choices not only for my health, but obviously my mobility and, you know, my joints and everything, so, yeah.

Helen: One last question. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice or tips for them?

Michelle: Oh, good question. I would say do it, because, you know, at the end of the day you can always re-dye your hair if you don't like it.

Be careful on sort of using, you know, heated products on it. Because I think it can, I know it damages hair anyway, but I think it can be worse for grey hair possibly. Because I suppose it hasn't got the nutrients of coloured hair. I'm not quite sure on that. 

But, yeah, I would say do it, but just look after your hair.

Helen: Well, I'm gonna say thanks very much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you.

Michelle: Thank you for that. I've enjoyed it.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.