Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Jo Renshaw Thomlinson. She's a life coach based in Brighton. She works with midlife women who are ready to be an amazing example for their daughters. Hello, Jo. How are you?

Jo: I'm very well, Helen. Thank you. How are you?

Helen: I'm good, thanks. I'm gonna start by saying, I think the aspiration to be a wonderful example for your daughters is fantastic.

Jo: Aah. I did my degree in photography a few years ago, and I made a piece of work about the women in my maternal line. And I was looking at the sort of issues that they'd had down the generations, and I thought, ah, there's a bit of a pattern here and there's a pattern here that I can change. 

And there's certain things that don't need to be passed on to my daughter, because we all come into the world with enough stuff of my own to deal with. So, if there were certain things that are within my control that I cannot pass on to her, and be a great example to her while I'm doing it, then why wouldn't I do that?

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were child?

Jo: Oh, it was very fair. And always very thick.

Helen: And was it long or short?

Jo: Till I was about 10, it was probably kind of around my ears. I think I had a, a typical sort of Seventies pudding basin for quite a while. 

And then when I got to big school at 10, it was longer. And actually, my mother told me a little while ago that I had alopecia for a while, that I didn't know about. I must have been quite stressed going into that school, but she did my hair in such a way that I couldn't see it. Yeah. Then it was about this long. She let it grow.

Helen: So, about shoulder length?

Jo: Yeah. And she would do it in bunches.

Helen: Did you ever experiment with colouring it in your teens?

Jo: I actually didn't, not in my teens, no. My Mum didn't dye her hair, and nor did my aunt. And interestingly, my aunt went completely grey by the time she was 29.

I couldn't deal with a faff of box dyes. All my girlfriends were box dyeing their hair at school. And it just didn't really interest me that much. I was more interested in going out to play on my bike or reading a book. 

So, it wasn't until I was pregnant actually, I was about 22, that I started going to the hairdresser and having highlights put in.

Helen: Did you have any white hairs at that point, or was it just an aesthetic thing?

Jo: No, I actually didn't have any white hairs at that point. Just aesthetic. Yeah. White hairs came I think when my daughter was about four or five.

Helen: Now is there a link there, I wonder?

 So, how did you feel about those first white hairs when they started to come through?

Jo: I was quite surprised. I thought, hmm, they do not look very nice. 

The story around white hairs was always that it meant you were stressed. So, my Mum always used to say, I've got these grey hairs because of you, meaning me and my brother and sister. You've made me turn grey. 

And so, I associated it with stress. But definitely didn't like how they looked, because it was like just one or two, and they were kind of wiry, and would jump out.

Helen: And you were already having highlights at that point?

Jo: Yeah. There were times that I wasn't doing. So, I'd say from sort of 22 to about 28, I did, and then I had a break probably for about 10 years. It was just like the odd one or two greys. 

And then around about my mid-thirties, I started highlighting it again. Then I was doing a mix of going to the hairdresser, or doing it myself, which was a bit of a messy experience to be honest.

Helen: And at that point, were you doing it to cover the grey hairs?

Jo: No, at that point it was more aesthetic. The grey hairs weren’t enough to make me think, I wanted to get rid of them.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Jo: Maybe I was doing it to cover up the grey. You're really making me think now. 

I wanted my hair to look more like I'd been in the sun a lot. Like I love that kind of summer, sunny look. I just thought, oh, this is what you do, so let's go and highlight your hair. And I liked how it looked.

Helen: How long did you do that for?

Jo: I carried on doing that until I was about 44. I can be very specific about that, because when I was 44, my daughter left home and I ended up living on my own, and I made a career move. 

So, I was freelancing, and I wanted to start my own business. In order to do that, I realized I'd have to stop getting on a train going to London. Because it just gave me no time to develop my own business as a coach. 

So, I went to work in a restaurant for a couple of years to wait tables. I thought, oh, I'll know what I'll do. I'll just go and work in hospitality, because that'll be really easy. And I won't be answering emails at 10 o'clock at night, emergency emails. So, I can just show up, do like a nine to five, in a cafe.

And then I'll have two days off a week where I can start seeing clients, and building up an email list that way. But it was much, much, much harder than I thought. It wasn't nine to five at all. Hospitality doesn't work like that. I was doing 6:00 AM until 3:00 PM. And on my days off, I was shattered.

I was also training for a marathon, so my feet were sore. So, when I came in from work at three o'clock, the first thing I wanted to do was have a sleep. And my days off, one of them was just recovering and doing laundry, and the other one was life admin. I sort of digress slightly.

Because I was focusing on building the business, I certainly wasn't spending any money on having my hair done. I did once buy a box dye, but at that point I was pretty grey. It was like very salt and pepper, and I thought, oh, I know I'll just kind of go Chestnut. But it faded so quickly. 

And my hair is very thick and it grows very fast. And so, I was having roots showing really quickly, and I hated the colour of that faded box dye, and it just the faff of it. Oh, I just thought, ah. Let's just be honest. You are 45 years old. You're going grey. You've got other more important things to think about. Give it up. So, I thought I'd just let it grow out and see how it goes.

Helen: Was that Chestnut a permanent colour or a semi-permanent colour?

Jo: I think it was semi-permanent.

Helen: So, as you were doing the grow out, it just sort of faded rather than having a hard line?

Jo: Yeah, yeah. It kind of, there was a line, but it wasn't too harsh.

Helen: How did you feel about your hair during the grow out?

Jo: I was not a fan. I mean I was also growing the length of it as well. So, it was at that kind of awkward stage where it was too short to tie up. It was too long to have down. Yeah. 

And then, a friend came to visit, so it was a friend of my boyfriend at the time, and he came to visit and he had been a hairdresser, I think he'd been trained by Trevor Sorbet. And he offered to cut my hair and he did it, and I hated it. It was too short. 

So, then I went to see somebody else to get it cut, into a kind of nicer style. And I hated it even more. And at that point I just thought, I'm gonna have to really embrace this haircut that I hate, for a certain period of time, and know that it will grow out.

So, there was, for me at that time, a combination of like the style and the colour, were not working well. And yeah, I didn't love it at all. I felt very self-conscious.

Helen: When you first had it cut short, was that to get rid of the remaining colour?

Jo: Yeah, I knew that would, that would chop the end off it.

Helen: And was it a Pixie Cut?

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: How long was it before you had the Pixie Cut?

Jo: It was kind of like ear length Bob.

Helen: Okay, so it wasn't a huge, huge change?

Jo: No.

Helen: But it was still a lot?

Jo: Yeah. Yeah, and because my hair is so thick, it doesn't actually work well in the Pixie Cut at all. It just looked like a great lump on my head.

Helen: So, you felt self-conscious more because of the cut, or the colour?

Jo: At that point, more because of the cut.

Helen: And did you then just gradually grow it out from there?

Jo: Yeah, I just kept growing. Then it was in Lockdown, so I couldn't do anything about the colour anyway. So, I thought, well this perhaps seems like a good time to stop dyeing my hair altogether.

And when we came out of Lockdown, at that point I was working in retail for a bit. I got loads of comments about the colour, like from loads of women. People saying, wow, I love your hair colour. Like, who do you see? Who does your hair for you? And I said, that's my own colour. People were really surprised that I didn't dye it. That was very revealing to me.

Helen: And were you surprised by the colour it is when you left it?

Jo: Yeah, yeah. Because it's not just one shade of grey at all. It's like multi layered. And in different lights, it's also got some sort of blonde in it. It's really fascinating. It's like badger of streaks in some point. Some parts are really dark grey. Some parts are very, very silver.

Helen: I think it's quite normal that we're so fixated on the bit of hair that we can see along our hairline, from the roots, that we kind of anticipate that that's the colour that the whole thing is gonna be.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: And it almost never is.

Jo: I often wear it half up, half down on purpose, so that I can see, and so that other people can see, the shades underneath.

Helen: Mine is very white at the front, 

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: and underneath, but not so much at the back. So, I've got like you can see from my ponytail, 

Jo: Oh yeah.

Helen: it's quite stripy. 

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: Whereas the tops really, really white.

Jo: Yeah, yeah.

Helen: I assumed mine would be a lot whiter than it is.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: Wrong.

Jo: I mean, I'm guessing that mine is gonna go whiter. We'll see. I'm judging by my Mum, for example, who is now just purely white. But I think, if I remember correctly, she had very short hair though, so it was a bit harder to tell. But she had many different shades of grey, from sort of very dark, all the way through to silver.

Helen: My Dad went white, and his Mum went white. But my Mum, who is nearly 90, she had like dark Harry Potter type colour hair to start with, and it went grey very late. So, she probably has about as much white hair as I do.

Jo: Oh wow.

Helen: But she didn't really start until she's about 70 ago to go grey.

Jo: Oh wow. Amazing.

Helen: Yeah. It just plays differently for different people. She found my first grey hair when I was 18. 

Jo: Oh gosh. My daughter is about to turn 29, and she just showed me her first one the other day.

Helen: And how does she feel about it?

Jo: She was quite alarmed actually, and I said, oh, great, you're becoming a wise woman.

Helen: I think it's quite interesting to hear the reaction, 'cause a lot of younger people seem less bothered about it, and certainly seem less paranoid about roots than our generation was. 'cause you were so sort of like, I need to be groomed for work.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: And it was a much more formal atmosphere generally.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: And the whole sort of, I guess being really well presented, in a traditional sense, was a part of that grooming thing, 

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: and the colouring of your hair.

Jo: Well, and interestingly, so the freelance career that I left was in photography, and I worked at Top Shop producing their Homepage. And my Line Manager had very long hair down her waist, I'd say, and it was dyed grey. 

It was so interesting to see someone, who was about 10 years younger than me, who'd gone out and spent a lot of money, and kept it. It looks amazing.

Helen: Was that before it was fashionable?

Jo: Yeah. This was, about 2016.

Helen: So ahead of that curve then. How did your friends and family feel about you going grey? Did you get any comments, any encouragement?

Jo: Oh, my Dad was like, definitely my Dad loved to point it out about how old I was getting. 

And my sister, I think she watched me from a distance. She's five years younger than me, and she did not like going grey at all. So, she was just like, you, do you, I'm not going there at all. 

So, she would come here, and we hennaed her hair, and we did box dye. Eventually now she stopped doing that. And her hair is going exactly the same colour as mine, and it looks great.

Helen: And she's relaxed about it now?

Jo: She, yeah, she's more relaxed. She still is not a super huge fan. For her it's more about looking old. But I never had that thought, it makes me look old. I just actually never had that. I always had the thought that, it was pretty cool, actually.

Helen: My Husband did say to me, it makes you look older. And I'm like, well, I am older.

Jo: Yes.

Helen: And I'm not ashamed of that. 

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: It's like, I have lived a life. So, are you doing anything to age healthily? 

Jo: Oh yeah, I do as much as I can. So, I drink plenty of water. I get lots of good sleep. I exercise. Yeah, they're my main things. I keep my brain fresh and young. I'm a coach, so I'm always investigating what's going on in my mind.

Helen: And what are you doing in terms of exercise?

Jo: I'm a runner. I do running, Qigong, yoga, little bit of weightlifting, walk loads.

Helen: So, a mix, basically.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah.

Helen: You do that 'cause you enjoy it, or because it'll keep you healthy, or both?

Jo: Both. Yeah. I love it. I used to run marathons. I don't now. I'm just not interested in doing that kind of distance anymore. And also, time. Time constraints on my life are very different now. But yeah, I love running. I have a Parkrun that starts outside my front door, so I get down there on Saturday mornings.

Helen: I'm training to be a Run Director.

Jo: Oh, great.

Helen: But I've only run 12. That's bad, isn't it? 

Jo: Okay.

Helen: ‘cause I like running on my own. It's kind of like a meditation.

Jo: Nice. Well, we have the busiest Parkrun in the country here on Hove Seafront. 

Helen: Okay.

Jo: It gets up to about 900 people. So, I've done about 110, 120 here over the years.

Helen: Ours gets about 150 normally.

Jo: Wow, nice.

Helen: So, a sensible number.

Jo: Yeah. Nice.

Helen: I would not like to be timekeeping for 900 Parkrunners.

Jo: Yeah, no, it's, yeah, I've seen some stressed people there.

Helen: How about your style? Would you say your style has changed as you've gone grey?

Jo: My hairstyle?

Helen: No. General sort of clothes, makeup, the whole aesthetic, I guess.

Jo: interestingly, a couple of years ago I consulted a colour stylist. She did this really fascinating thing where they drape cloths on your collar. Of different colours, to see what colours will suit you really well to wear. But I was kind of already intuitively wearing those colours anyway. So, blues. But quite strong, bright primary colours. 

But I wouldn't say my style has changed massively. My style has always been quite distinct, I think. You always find me wearing things that not everybody else would wear. But I also do love a white shirt and jeans.

Helen: But you've got no plans to fade into the background with your grey hair?

Jo: Oh, no way. Absolutely not.

Helen: I think it's very different now. When I look back to my grandmother when she was my age, she was just really, really old.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: In many ways. Whereas now it's kind of like, well, if you've got the energy, then you can go and do whatever you want. You can wear whatever you want.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: I think there's a lot more choice, I guess.

Jo: Yeah, yeah. And we're exposed to so much more through the Internet as well.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Jo: The same. My grandmother wore two piece wool suits, and was an old lady in her sixties in my imagination. 

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Jo: But that doesn't feel like old age to me now. I'm 52. I don't imagine I'm gonna be, feeling old when I am in my sixties.

Helen: I'm 60, and I think the only way that I feel old, is I have some osteoarthritis in my right foot, in my bunion joint. Which means basically I won't be run any more half marathons. 

Jo: Right.

Helen: Because the training is too much for it. But beyond that, it doesn't feel very different.

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: I am gonna ask you one last question. I think if somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice and tips would you have for them?

Jo: I would say, go for it. Be prepared for it to look all weird, and feel uncomfortable while you're growing it out. But stick with it, be patient. 

And also keep your hair in really good condition. So, I think for a long time, grey hair was associated with kind of being wiry, and unmanageable. But that hasn't been my experience at all. So have a good dose of Argan Oil.

Helen: Okay.

Jo: When styling it.

Helen: I didn't ask you, are you using any special shampoos and conditioners?

Jo: No, I just use shampoo and conditioner from Lush, which I love. I use a shampoo called Honey. And a conditioner called Veganese. And then I finish it off with a styling product called Super Milk. Which I put a little bit on when it's damp.

And then I blow dry it, because if I don't blow dry my hair, it goes very wavy, and unmanageable, 'cause it's this thick, big, big head of hair. So, I tend to blow dry it. And then I just put a little bit of Argan Oil on it. That keeps it really sleek and nice.

Helen: Right. Well, I think I'm gonna say thank you so much for joining me, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Jo: Thank you very much for having me, Helen.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.