Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Rachel Peru. She's a silver haired curve model, body confidence activist and host of the Liberte Free to Be Podcast. She started a new career as a model at the age of 46, after having ditched the dye at 45, and she's never looked back. Hello Rachel. How are you?

Rachel: Hi, Helen. I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Rachel: Very dark. I was a really dark brunette. But I did start having grey hair probably at about the age of 12, 13. It was around when there was a hair dye that was like a hair mousse. So, I started colouring my hair with different hair mousses from about age, probably about 13, 14. So I had grey roots from a very young age.

Helen: Did you just get teased about having the grey hair when you're at school?

Rachel: Yeah, my nickname when I was about 14, 15, I had a terrible eighties perm, but I also had grey roots, so my nickname at school was Biddy. So that was, right up until I left school at 18. That was my nickname. 

But I did, yeah, I did used to get teased about it. Certainly, at school I did. 'cause it was just very rare to see somebody with grey roots, and they were, because my hair was so dark, they really did show up quite quickly.

Helen: Yeah, I think kids kind of look for any reason to bully you, don't they?

Rachel: Absolutely. Yeah.

Helen: But did you feel very uncomfortable about them at that stage? I'm guessing.

Rachel: Do you know what? I don't think I did really. It annoyed me more than anything. Because especially at that age, you know, I was really into fashion and makeup and all that kind of stuff. 

And for me, you know, I adapted very quickly. I used it as an opportunity to colour my hair. So, I've literally had my hair, every colour of the rainbow. So, I think from a young age, I started colouring it. I've had it plumb burgundy, you know, you name it, I had it. 

So, I kind of channelled that side of things, and decided that I was gonna have to colour my hair to have some fun with it. So, I don't really remember it ever really upsetting me, that I had it. It was just there, and I couldn't get rid of it, so I just had to learn to adapt with it.

Helen: So, you used it as an excuse to have a bit of fun?

Rachel: Exactly. Yeah, I did. Yeah.

Helen: And how long did you cut your hair for?

Rachel: Until I was 45. So, a long time. Yeah. You know.

Helen: Over 30 years then?

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. By the end of it, I was having like proper hairdressers, full dye every three weeks, because the roots were just so strong. So, I did start going blonder, to try and make it last. 

And then I just gave up and just decided. I just woke up one morning, actually. I just thought, actually, I don't want to colour it anymore. I just got to that stage where I thought, I can't face doing it anymore. This is not good for me. It's waste of money, it's waste of my time. And yeah, so something just switched in me one morning.

Helen: And when was that?

Rachel: It was in the summer when I was 45. I had very short hair. I had a really short pixie cut, so I guess it was, easier than somebody that's got long hair, to grow out. And I had a really sympathetic hairdresser who had been in my hairdresser for years, so she knew about the greys.

For me, it was quite an easy transition really. It's interesting though. I did put a post on Facebook, the morning that I decided that I was going to grow it out. And I did a post on Facebook to my friends. And the amount of people that, probably in jest, but there's a lot of truth in jest in there? 

People saying, you're too young. Don't do it. You know, you're not ready to give yourself up yet. There was only one lady who herself was already grey, had said, Rachel, go for it. You'll look great with it.

Helen: And what year was that in?

Rachel: I'm 55 now, so that was 2015.

Helen: So, pre-Lockdown.

Rachel: Yes.

 Helen: By some distance?

Rachel: Yes. Yeah.

Helen: And your hair's very white now. Was it as white as that? 

Rachel: Yeah, it was really white. The back was greyer, the back was quite dark. It's taken quite a few years for the back to kind of go this white. But my grandma was completely white in her late twenties, early thirties. So, it runs in the family. 

My sister's also the same white colour. So, I did know that genetically, this is the kind of grey that runs in our family, this white, white hair. So, for me, yeah, it's been quite an easy process.

Helen: So, after that initial Facebook post, did you get more support from your friends and family, or were they still sceptical?

Rachel: No actually once they seen it coming grey, and actually for the first year I used like a silver toner with the hairdressers, so it really did look grey quite quickly. People loved it and never said anything about it again. And I think they probably can't imagine me with dark hair now.

And if I see pictures of myself with dark hair, I look so harsh. It's funny how it, the grey of the white suits my skin tone and I don't think the dark really did actually. It's interesting to look back.

Helen: Probably when you're younger, 'cause obviously your skin tone changes as well as your hair.

Rachel: Yes. Yes.

Helen: So having such white hair. What do you do to look after it and keep it in good condition?

Rachel: Well, people think it's an easy process, and actually it's not that easy, especially in my line of work as a model. Because I have a lot of heat products put on it. I have a lot of straighteners, a lot of heat tools used on it. And even that, and hairspray can really discolour my hair very quickly. So, it can make it go more yellowy.

I used to use silver shampoos, 'cause I thought that would help. And actually, what I found is I've not used any silver shampoos for about a year, and actually it's become brighter, and whiter without using any extra products like that. 

So, I've ditched all that now and I just use normal shampoo and conditioners, but I do use heat protectors. I'm really careful about when I'm not working, making sure that I don't over style my hair. And obviously now I'm growing it, I've just got to be more careful with it.

Helen: So, tdo you keep it out of the sun? 

Rachel: Yeah, I do. And even like chlorine, if I go swimming, I'll wear a swimming cap, and I'll put conditioner on soon as I've got out, that kind of thing. The yellow is a real nuisance 'cause it can look really kind of almost like nicotine yellow sometimes if it's been over styled, which takes quite a while to shift.

Helen: Are you using anything in particular to shift that, If it does go yellow?

Rachel: No, I'm not anymore. I was using the silver shampoos and I just found that actually that made it, too uneven. So, where it was a yellowy, it was darker grey than probably on the roots, so it just looked too uneven overall. So, I just don't use anything now, and let it go out naturally.

Helen: So is that like the purple shampoos?

Rachel: Yes. Yeah. I've stopped using those.

Helen: How do you find the condition of your hair generally?

Rachel: I would say it's healthier now than it used to be, because it's not got any dyes on it, and bleach, and everything else that I've poured on my hair over the years. 

It's softer. It's definitely softer. I've got very fine hair. I've got a lot of it, but it's very fine hair. It's quite fluffy, so it does stick up quite a lot with the whites. But, overall feels much healthier, now.

Helen: So, it hasn't gone like wiry and frizzy, 

Rachel: No.

Helen: Which I guess are the things that people are scared of.

Rachel: it did. I think it did the first few years. I'd say it's changed, although it's settled down, it's nearly 10 years in now. But as I was growing out it was definitely wirier.

Helen: And did you feel uncomfortable with that, or you just accepted it?

Rachel: Yeah, I think I just accepted it. And I think because it was so short for quite a long time, I just thought I could hide it with products.

Helen: How do you find people react to your hair now when you meet them?

Rachel: I do get people stopping me in the street asking me about my hair. I think some people still think it's coloured. So, people all say, you know, what colour have you got your hair? And I'm like, well, this is my hair, which I love saying. I have a really positive response from people.

And obviously, I work a lot with different hairdressers in the business. And, I always get really lovely, comments about my hair, and compliments. And I love it. 

I feel more me now than I ever have done. And probably that's a bit of an age thing as well, isn't it? I'm 55 now, so I'm more comfortable in my own skin. But I think embracing this natural stage of my life with my hair like this is, definitely a big part of that.

Helen: Obviously a lot of people went grey in Lockdown.

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: Did you find any sort of change in the reaction that you got to your hair pre and post Lockdown?

Rachel: No, I don't think so. It was probably, 'cause I had had grey hair for quite a long time before then. 

But I mean, even my sister, who's four or five years older than me, she went grey, and embraced the grey during Lockdown. So, it was interesting watching her transformation, because I had already been through it. But she had really, really long hair.

So, no. I think because I was so far before that, people had already accepted my hair. And I'd already seen it. And because I'm quite you know, public on social media, it wasn't something that I'd suddenly appeared with grey hair. So, no, I think. 

But it's brilliant to see so many more women out there with grey hair during Lockdown. It was fantastic to see that transformation.

Helen: One of the stereotypes is you go grey you have your hair cut short. Obviously, you did that in the beginning, but now you're growing it. Why have you chosen to grow it?

Rachel: Yeah, it's interesting, 'cause I have actually always had short hair. So, I didn't choose to go short 'cause I was growing it out. Up until early forties, I've always, from being a child, had super short hair. So, this is the longest I've ever had it. 

And because of the industry that I'm in, in modelling. Longer Hair is more versatile. There's more demand for longer hair, obviously hairstylist can do more with it. So more than anything it's a work thing. 

Whether I will keep it this length always, there's always a bit of me that's desperate to go shorter again. That's one thing I can control. I can't dye it anymore, but I can offer fun changing styles. So yeah, for the moment I'm growing it for work, but I'm not sure how long will last.

Helen: Because I find it so much lower maintenance when it's long.

Rachel: See, I'm the opposite. I think shorter hair for me has always been easier, but that's 'cause all I've ever known really. I find longer hair I have to wash it more regularly because it's longer. Or I'll end up just sticking it up in a bun, and leaving it like that for a few days, which I guess, I suppose that's easy.

Helen: But you don't have, to have it cut nearly as often.

Rachel: That's true. That is true. Yeah.

Helen: Why did you decide to take up modelling?

Rachel: It was not something that I'd ever imagined doing. I certainly wouldn't have had the confidence to do what I'm doing now in my twenties and thirties. I actually got divorced at 40, and went back to university, and got a degree in education studies. So, I thought I was going to do teaching.

And it was during that time, a friend volunteered me to do some modelling for a local charity fashion show. I've never done anything like that before. Said yes. Went along, absolutely loved it. It was an amazing event. I came off feeling really empowered and didn't think anything of it.

Volunteered for them, for the next six years. Just carried on one day a year, and after about six or seven years. There was some professional models involved, and a photographer, that were really encouraging and saying, you know, you're really natural at this. Have you thought about doing it? 

By then my three children were a lot more independent. So, I thought, well I've got nothing to lose. Why not try it? Thinking I live close by to Leeds. Thinking if I got some extra work, it'd be a bit of a hobby. 

And I got signed with a London agency straight away. So, it was like, okay, I've got to take this a bit more seriously. And I've been doing it ever since. And I can't imagine not doing it now. I absolutely love it.

Helen: What sorts of things do you model for?

Rachel: I suppose I'm best known for swimwear and lingerie. I do a lot of body confidence work. There's not enough marketing using older women. And I think it's really important that we see body shapes of all sizes, for everyone's mental wellbeing. 

So, I do a lot of swimwear and lingerie campaigns for leading brands. But anything, fashion, beauty, all sorts of different things. Which is great, 'cause I love the variety. I like having lots of different, different jobs and not knowing, what's going to be next, or what's around the corner.

Helen: You are a curvier model.

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: At the moment there's a lot in the press about weight loss jabs, and the modelling industry going skinny again. 

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: Are you seeing that?

Rachel: Definitely, yeah. I'm a UK size 16. I'm 34G so I am definitely you know, a curvier model. And my agency that I'm with is solely curve models, so they're size 12 up. Which is ridiculous 'cause you know, to say that the UK's average woman size is Size 14. And the curve industry starts at Size 12. It doesn't make any sense. But anyway.

So, I do think there's been a decline in models being used that are curvier, that are being more diverse. And I think it's quite a worrying shift really, that the fashion industry seem to think women's bodies are some kind of fashion tool that they can dictate what's in and what's out.

Yeah. It's quite a dangerous, I think. But I'm hoping that it's just a phase that we go through, and then it comes back out again. We'll see.

Helen: Sure I read somewhere there something like two and a half million people on weight loss jabs,

Rachel: Yeah.

 Helen: at the moment in the UK. And I was like, what?

Rachel: Yeah. And I think it's great, there are some people that definitely will benefit from that health wise, and that's, you know, I'm not against that. But I think it's the message that it's sending to general society that even if you're slightly overweight, then that's the answer to everything.

And, you can't possibly be happy if you are over a certain size. 'cause everyone's different. And we're all built different ways, and I think it's a really damaging message to send now.

Helen: Are you doing anything to age healthily?

Rachel: I am exercising more. I am doing more yoga, more weightlifting, that kind of thing, because, I know that that's good for my joints. 

I have stopped drinking alcohol pretty much. Not that I was drinking a lot anyway. But even one or two glasses of wine just did not make me feel good in the morning. So, I've pretty much cut out alcohol, and I definitely feel better for that. And I think for my longevity, that will be a good thing to do. 

I'd like to keep active. And also, I like to try new things, and keep busy, and travel, and keep my mind occupied, and you know, have those passions in life. And I think if you've got that, then it really does help with the ageing process, I hope.

Helen: You said, when you were younger, you loved fashion. Is that still true now?

Rachel: Absolutely. Yes, I do. I was the girl when I was at play school and early years at school that would be hovering over the dress-up tent, and being dragged out a bit to let somebody else have a turn. 

So, I've always loved that kind of feeling of dressing up, and playing different characters. And my wardrobe is just a part of that. It expresses all the different sides of my personality. So, I love having different clothes for different moods, and expressing my personality through that. So yeah, I absolutely love it. 

I'm a massive fan of vintage fashion. I love pre-loved and charity shop hunting, as well as shopping on the High Street. So, yeah, that's something that's, yeah, it's important to me. I guess it's part of who I am.

Helen: Have you found the colours that you wear have changed since your hair's white?

Rachel: Yes, I'm definitely bolder. I think I lived in really dark colours, and black, for a long time. And I wear a lot of bright pinks, reds. I'm more adventurous with my makeup as well and my lipstick colours. I definitely feel like because it's so white, my hair, the contrast, I can carry off bolder colours now than I used to do.

Helen: It's quite dramatic, your hair, 'cause it is so white.

Rachel: Yeah. And I think if I wore a really pale kind of beigey colour top, I can look quite faded and washed out. So having a pop of colour is definitely a help.

Helen: So you're not fading into beige-dom then?

Rachel: No, I'm not. No, definitely not.

Helen: I think your hair colour is kind of the colour that we all imagine our hair will be when we let it go. And for most of us it's a lot more salt and pepper than that.

Rachel: Yeah, but that's the thing about grey hair though, isn't it? I love the fact that everyone's got different shades, and it's just unique to them. I've got so many friends now that have got just beautiful grey hair, and some's really dark grey hair, some's that sort of pepper. And I love seeing us in a room together with all the different shades put together. I think it's fabulous.

Helen: I think it's fascinating. I've got very white at the front, and then the back's a lot darker. 

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: But quite a few people that I've interviewed for the podcast kind of have the opposite. So, they have a much darker bit on the top, 

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: and just a little bit down the sides or, or the tops the bit that's white.

Rachel: Yeah. How long have you had your hair like that?

Helen: Since Lockdown. I'd talked about it for a couple of years before, 'cause I had mine bleached blonde. 

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: Everyone seemed to think it was a bad idea. And I hadn't really sort of had the conviction to do it. And then come Lockdown, it was kind of like, yeah, here's my sign. I'll be doing it now.

Rachel: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Helen: And I really like it. And I think the thing for me as well is that yellow is not a colour that suits me. But bleached blonde is always a bit of a warm yellow tone, so it actually washed me out. 

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: And I look a lot healthier now that I have the natural colour. 

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: Even though it's greyer, it’s better for me.

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: Yeah, I would never go back for sure.

Rachel: No, I wouldn't. I have been asked by work sometimes for modelling jobs if I'd be prepared to let a brand colour my hair. And it's a no, from me. It's a definite no. I can't imagine going through that whole process of growing out again.

Helen: Do you ever put tints in it or anything?

Rachel: No. Well, I don't. I did do a job last year where they put hair chalk in, so they put pink and purple hair chalk, which literally just washes out. And that was quite fun. It was fun to see it like that. But I couldn't, yeah, I wouldn't do a wash in, wash out now. Too scared.

Helen: Yeah, I think for me as well, 'cause I've got bits that are white, but bits that aren't. I'm not sure how much those sorts of colours would show up anyway.

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: I think I'd be very stripey. If someone was going to go grey, what advice would you have for them? 

Rachel: I would say find a really good hairdresser. If you have a hairdresser that's on your side, then I think that makes a massive difference. Having the right haircut, and having it so that you feel confident when you walk out the hairdressers every time you visit, is really helpful.

'cause I've got some friends that have had a hairdresser that's kind of really not wanting to let them go grey. And discouraged them. And then that makes it much harder to battle against that. So, I think finding a really good hairdresser is, really important. 

And also just, yeah, accessorize. Hats for me. Berets, I used to wear a lot of berets. And having hats, scarves, accessorize, wear the makeup as you're growing. 

And own it. I think there's no point hiding that stage where you're going through it. Just own the fact that you're growing it out, and it's a talking point, and be proud of it. Because you will get through the other side, even though it feels painful sometimes. It doesn't take as long as you think it's going to.

Helen: I hadn't really thought about hats have to say until I started doing the podcast.

Rachel: No.

Helen: And then the number of people who were kind of like, especially in that very early stage where you've got an inch or two of roots and you just feel very scruffy. They were like, oh yeah, hats were my best friend.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. 

Helen: Mine was just in a ponytail, and I was trying not to think about it.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. The time for you was when we weren't going out that much as well. So, I think those, the Lockdown, that was probably quite easy. Easier.

Helen: YeahI think you're so conditioned that white roots are a bad thing,

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen:  that even if no one else is seeing it, it still plays in your head.

Rachel: Yeah, it's how it makes you feel.

Helen: And I think a lot of the fear around going grey as well is it's in your head. You assume you're gonna get various judgments from people.

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: Which actually may or may not happen. in general, the people who care about you are gonna support your choices. 

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: So, it's normally a much more positive experience, I think, than people expect that it's gonna be.

Rachel: Yeah, very much so. And I think people still have that thing in their head where we're told we're going to become invisible if we let our hair go grey. And that, I just don't think that's the case anymore. I really don't. 

I think the matter of women that actually are much more visible now that they've got grey hair than they ever were before, is completely dispelling that myth.

Helen: Yeah, I think we've got a lot more choices in terms of what we wear. 

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: I think when I look back at my grandma, she was in the beige kilts, and the anorak, and the flat shoes.

Rachel: Yeah.

Helen: It's like, well, I might wear flat shoes, but they're gonna be interesting trainers, thank you. 

Rachel: Yes.

Helen: Or boots. And beyond that, I think people wear, like my Mum is nearly 90, she's still in jeans and leather jackets.

Rachel: Oh, brilliant. I love that.

Helen: There's no reason why the rest of us shouldn't be.

Rachel: No, absolutely. That's the way to live life.

Helen: Well, I think I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Rachel: Thank you very much for having me, Helen. Nice to talk to you. Thank you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.