Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Susan Richie. She's recently taken semi-retirement after 32 years of teaching. First as a primary school teacher. Then in the second half of her career as a leadership coach, trainer, and writer. She's now focusing on her creative pursuits to see where they may lead her over the next few years. 

Good morning, Sue. How are you?

Susan: Morning Helen. I'm absolutely fine. Thank you very much. How are you?

Helen: I'm all right. It's absolutely pouring down with rain here, but otherwise, all good. I am gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first grey hair?

Susan: It wasn't one, I need to put a bit of context around that, Helen. I was 20 years as a bottle blonde up until my late thirties. And in my late thirties I moved overseas to Southeast Asia to live and work with my son. And the blonde hair dye that I used just did awful things to my hair in that tropical heat, and tropical sun. 

So, I decided that I would go back to my natural colour, which was brunette. So, I had it dyed dark brown again. And it's at that point that I started noticing the grey hairs, and there were quite a few of them. So, it wasn't one.

As my hair grew along that parting line, my hair looked darker overall. I suppose it looked more black, compared to the white hairs that were coming through. So that would've been in my very late thirties, Helen, that I started noticing them, for the first time. But how long they've been there, goodness knows.

Helen:  And how did you feel about them?

Susan: At first, I was a bit shocked, because I was still in my late thirties, and they were unwelcome. I really didn't want to see them. So, for many years I carried on dyeing my hair dark brown. 

I would go to the hairdressers every six to seven weeks, and that continued when I moved back. So, I moved back to the UK, in my early forties. And I continued for many years, a good 10, 12 ish years, covering them up. 

I did not want to see them at all. And particularly what I didn't want to see was at the parting line, at the top of my forehead, was what looked like a bald patch. It looked like my hair had gone really transparent, and I couldn't stand that. It looked really noticeable on photographs. Very vain of me, I suppose, but I didn't like it. 

So in between trips to the hairdresser, I would buy this touch-up powder, and colour myself in literally, to get rid of them. I just, yeah, didn't want to see them. So, it was uncomfortable, for a long time.

Helen: What was the catalyst for you deciding that you were gonna grow it out?

Susan: Like a lot of women Lockdown. I was working at that time as a corporate trainer, and all of my in-person work moved to Teams calls. And during Lockdown I spent eight hours a day in Teams calls, staring at a screen.

And my hair started growing out, and I left it too late to get some hair dye online. All those shades that I would use were completely gone. And at that point I thought, I wonder what it would be like if I let it grow out. 

And at that point, as it started to grow out, it was properly grey. And it took me 26 months to grow it out. And as it grew out, it was a really strange feeling. You know, you have the little dialogue box in the corner of your screen, don't you? Where you can see yourself.

It was like watching this tide of grey move down my hair. But what was underneath it, so that kind of transparent part that I thought looked very odd, was actually two white stripes. Which I just loved. 

So, it was a gradual thing, Helen. Prompted by the Lockdown experience, and I think a lot of women were like that.

And it got to a point where I thought, well, I make a choice. I either carry on growing it out, or I try harder to find a box. And at that point, I was in my early fifties, and I thought, I'm just gonna go with it. 

And I think at that point I started moving into a different phase of my life, and how I felt about myself. And it became much more comfortable, and I started embracing it in a way that I hadn't done before.

Helen: Your hair looks a very similar pattern to mine in that you've got a very white streak at the front.

Susan: Yes.

Helen: It's probably darker at the back. And I think when you're still dyeing it, you're very fixated by what you can see. And what you can see is always the bit at the front. 

Susan: Exactly. And it's funny you should say that, darker at the back, because when I pull my hair around, if I just sit and fiddle with it, there's actually still quite a lot of brown in it. So, you get this optical blending effect, which makes it look lighter, but it's different shades. 

I've got a friend and her hair is, well, more than one friend actually, and their hair is just pure white, and it looks amazing. But my hair isn't like that, it's mottled. But the overall effect, particularly in sunlight, it always intrigues me how different my hair looks in sunlight. So, in sunlight, my hair does look really quite white.

And I've got pictures of myself with what looks like white hair, but I know that that's an illusion. 'cause it's not all white. It's not completely uniform. I suppose it reminds me a bit of, I dunno, as you age a bit, Helen, what you are like as a more mature woman, you are not just one thing.

We are different tones, and you know, we bring a lot of experience to our lives. And I think that's kind of reflected in my hair a bit, if that makes any sense. That it's not just flat and monotone. Yeah. We're not just flat and monotone as older women, we've got, you know, subtleties, and nuances as well.

Helen: I am gonna take you back to the grow out. So, your hair is about shoulder length at the moment.

Susan: Yeah.

Helen: Was that how it was through your grow out?

Susan: It was a bit shorter. I've got pictures of myself on sort of like my Facebook profile, when it's more chin length. Because what I did was at one point, I had it cut as short as I could do.

When we were in the, sort of summertime of 2020, when we were allowed to go back to hairdressers. I booked an appointment, and I had it cut as short as I could, probably about chin length, just to get rid of some of the colour really. I decided at that point I was never going to dye it again. So yes, it has been chin length.

And the texture of my hair has changed over the years as well. When it was shorter, the bits of my hair that still had the dye on felt thicker and curlier. I blow dry it a lot. I blow dry it straight, but it was quite curly. So, I had this kind of finer, straighter bit on the crown of my head, and then the bottom of it to my chin was dark and curly. 

And it looked quite nice. As I say, I've got pictures of myself with it, and it looked quite nice. Yeah. So, it wasn't always, this length. It's never been substantially longer than this though. My hair's very thin, and it looks even thinner, and quite lank if I let it get any longer than about this. So, this length or maybe a little bit shorter.

Helen: So, if you were still doing your hair quite a dark brown before, you must have had quite a hard line during the grow out?

Susan: I did. I did. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's what I noticed. So, it got really expensive, going to the hairdressers every six weeks. Yeah, so I would go regularly. There was a very, clear tide mark.

And that's when this sort of stripes. This sort of like almost transparent part, which of course was the white stripes that have been there for years I think, became very prominent, and very noticeable. And also, the difference between the dark brown, and the grey, parts of it looked almost black against the hair dye. So yeah, it was interesting watching. 

I don't know if, it wasn't for Lockdown, whether I would've gone grey. I don't know. I've sort of pondered that question. Would I have made a decision at some point, to embrace the grey, without being prompted by Lockdown. And I don't know is the answer to that. But never dyeing it again. It's just gonna be completely natural from now on.

Helen: I think Lockdown was interesting in that when you dye your hair, you just get into a cycle, and you just don't even think about it. I always used to book my next colour appointment as I was leaving the salon each time. So, it just became like a total habit. And then when Lockdown happened, it kind of broke the cycle, and you could actually question. What am I doing? Why am I doing it? 

Cause I had been thinking about growing out a couple of years before Lockdown. But everyone was like, don't do it. You know, it will look terrible. And, I thought, well, I'll leave it. But then Lockdown came, and it was like, no, I'm definitely gonna do it now.

But you sound like you were much more, you hadn't made any sort of decision before Lockdown. You hadn't explored the idea before Lockdown. So, I'm interested to understand, obviously it started with roots, at what point did you stop feeling uncomfortable with those, and start thinking actually I'm, gonna leave this?

Susan: I was like you, I would go to the hairdressers, have the hair dye on, make an appointment for six or seven weeks later. And I did that for absolutely donkey’s years. So yes, it became a real habit. 

And I think once I'd grown about two or three inches, and I could see the colour coming through, I could see the stripes emerging. And I think at that point I'd reached a point of no return, and I started to think about I wonder what? I was curious at that point, I think Helen, that was it. I was curious. I wonder what this will look like if it's all out? 

And I think that's what drove me at that point. I wanna see it through, and see what emerges. And when it did emerge fully, I just loved it. And I loved it before then, you know, by the time it got to sort of my ears. 'cause I kept having the short cuts. And you know, when I just had the little bit left at the end, at that point I just actually, I really, really do love this.

I think it made me embrace who I was a little more at that point. I mean, I've been so used to seeing myself with a head full of dark brown hair. I didn't really think twice about it, you know, who I was. I suppose that ageing process. Also went through the menopause as well, during Lockdown.

So, it was a whole shift. A whole sort of like physical shift for me. Shift in what I look like. And entering that next stage of my life. When I look back now, it was quite a major thing, quite a rite of passage. Yeah, it is curious, isn't it? It's interesting when you reflect back on things.

Helen: It didn't really feel like that at the time though? 

Susan: No, I don't think it did. I don't think it did at all. Yeah, it was mainly curious. I wonder what this is going to be like?

Helen: What sort of reaction have you had from your friends and family?

Susan: They absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. My husband is a really supportive man and you know, he'd have supported me whatever it looked like. And if I wanted to go back and dye it again, it wouldn't have been an issue. He's always lovely. My friends and family just love it. 

And I often get comments when I'm out and about from other women about my hair. It happened on Friday night, we were out. And my friend's daughter came up to me when we were sort of saying goodbye, and she said, I love your hair. Said it looks absolutely stunning. And, I think it's the contrast. If I'm in a dark room, the stripes show up more. We were in a small club.

So yeah, it's been universally loved, I think. And having that sort of positive reflection of how I feel about it sometimes is a really nice thing, a really nice thing to have. And if they didn't like it, well, tough I suppose

Helen: Was the reaction that you've had what you were expecting?

Susan: I dunno what I was expecting, Helen. 'cause I dunno what I was expecting from myself. I didn't have any expectations. As I said, it's just this curiosity. I wonder what's under here?

Because I had no role models either as my Mum sadly died when she was 47. And I remember her having a few grey hairs around her sort of temples, but she never got to be completely grey. I've got an aunt who I think has dyed her hair, and continues to dye it. So, I've never seen sort of in my female relatives. And my sister has this beautiful head of glossy dark hair still. 

So, I had no expectations about what it would look like, or expectations about how I would feel about it. And because of that, no expectations of how other people would respond to me. I've hoped that my husband would like it, hope he wouldn't look at his wife and think, oh, goodness me, you know, I can't stand her hair. But he doesn't, so that's a good thing. 

Helen: Yeah. So obviously, before you had very dark hair, now's a much paler shade. Has that changed the way that you dress, and the makeup that you use?

Susan: It hasn't yet. So, I've been thinking about this actually. I don't wear much makeup. I wear a little bit of eye, sort of like mascara stuff. If I'm doing screen work, so when I was doing all my Teams calls and things, I would put a little bit of foundation on, so I wasn't mottled, and stuff on the screen.

I haven't substantially changed really. What I wear as makeup. There's a part of me that's quite interested to play around with it, I think, and try out different stuff. I mean, I've stuck to the same stuff for decades. So, yeah, I dunno what I would do, but suppose the short answer to that, Helen, is no, I haven't.

In terms of what to wear, I think I have instinctively gone with a core colour palette in what I wear. I've always worn blues, greens, greys, black, and a little bit of white, or an off white. And that's not changed substantially either. I did buy myself a bright red dress last year, 'cause it was in the Sale. And I like that. 

But I think I instinctively go with those more muted colours, I suppose. I know kind of what suits me. So, I don't think that's changed substantially really, Helen,

Helen: Yeah. I wear loads of blue. Always have, it's not changing.

Susan: No, no. I love it. Blue and some shades of green, really nice, and grey. A bit more grey actually, funnily enough, in my wardrobe now. I bought a nice, long grey, fine Corduroy dress when we were on holiday, and that's lovely. But overall, Helen, no, I haven't.

Helen: Are you doing anything to age healthily?

Susan: Yes. Yes, I think I am. So, I took semi-retirement this summer, so I've got more time on my hands. So, I've started going out to yoga classes. So, I've done yoga at home for years, and years, and years. But I wanted to be in a room with other people. So, I've started going to yoga classes, meditation classes, Pilates. 

I really enjoy Pilates. I am by far the oldest woman in the room, but I love that, you know. So, I go to Pilates classes once a week as well.

I’ve always enjoyed walking, so I go for three, four, maybe five times a week. I'll have a good walk, and I'll combine it with things that I'm doing. So, if I'm going into town, I'll get the bus in, but I'll walk back, which is a good 40 minutes walk. So, I'll do things like that. 

And because I've got a bit more time, at lunchtime, I'll perhaps take a bit more time to make something that's just not a sandwich. I've always cooked from scratch every night. So, we eat a vegetarian diet, because I don't eat fish, my husband doesn't eat meat. I'm continuing that, so I cook properly, but I have done that for a long time. 

I've gone back to journaling more regularly. And being with myself a bit more. And I've got the luxury of, and it is a luxury, I do appreciate that, luxury of a bit more time, where my mornings are slower as well, which is lovely.

I don't always have to set an alarm clock, which is brilliant. I'm a big believer that how you start the day kind of sets the tone for the day. So being able to be a bit more calmer in the morning, and you know, maybe do a bit of journaling, pull a card for the day and contemplate that, or just sit with a cup of tea.

Read my book for a bit, which is always something, I did when I was working full-time as well, would be to wake up a little bit earlier and read. I love reading a bit with a cup of tea in the morning. So, to be able to have that spaciousness in the morning feels very luxurious, and you know, really very, very lovely. Yeah. 

And also, I've started doing some weights at home. I've been reading a lot about the benefits of weights for, you know, sort of women in midlife. My Mum died when she was 47. I'm 59 now, and I want to live a long and healthy life. I've kind of set an intention, if you like. I want to be the healthiest version of myself that I can be, you know? 

So hopefully at some point, I'll be a grandma. And, you know, I've still got a lot to do, Helen, a lot to do, a lot to achieve. And I want to make sure that I am in as healthy a state as I can be, to be able to do that. And you know, I've got the luxury of time to be able to devote to that as well.

Helen: In your intro, we talked about creative pursuits as well?

Susan: I do loads of stuff, I’m one of these women, I've got a million hobbies. Over the last five or six years, what do I do?

I'm an avid knitter, a crocheter. I do natural dyeing, but I only do that in the warmer months, 'cause I have to do it in the garden because of the chemicals you use to sort of set the dye and stuff like that. So, I do natural dye. I also spin. So, I got into spinning in 2021 after the main Lockdown. Got a spinning wheel. Did a day's course. So, I spin my own yarn as well.

What I absolutely love is, I love books. I've always been an avid reader all my life, and I'm interested in books as art. I do mono-printing on a gel plate. And I'm going to use those to make covers and end papers for journals, handmade journals. I've always loved journaling, and I've always talked to people over the last 15 years about the benefits of journaling. So, I want to kind of combine that. 

So, yeah, a lot. Using acrylic paints, watercolour paints as well to make simple prints. And I've surprised myself, I always thought I would be more representational in what I do, but I lean more towards the abstract which surprises me. And it's a good reminder that you can still surprise yourself.

As somebody who's always kind of followed the rules a little bit, to be finding this slightly more abstract side of myself in my late fifties, again, is really curious. And I'm embracing it, and yeah, I just love it, Helen. 

I'm taking my time with it. Curious about what will unfold with it all, and where it will go. I'm not putting a lot of pressure on myself. I've always been somebody who really strives and goes for things. And I'm typical Aries woman and you know, that's it. 

I've set myself a goal and I've worked towards it. I achieve it. And that's been a very successful strategy for me for many years. In all of my career I've achieved the success that I set out to achieve for myself. Probably different to other people's idea of success. You know, never employed people or anything like that, but my own goals, I've always achieved them.

And now I suppose I'm taking a slower, more curious, softer approach to it. More inquisitive. Where's this gonna lead? What is it I really want to do with this? That feels very nice, very nice way to sort of move into this stage of my life.

Helen: I'm gonna bring you back to your hair. Do you use any special shampoos and conditioners?

Susan: No, I don't. I use bog standard off the shelf stuff that I get from Superdrug. The only exception is, I go to the hairdressers now maybe twice a year to have it cut, maybe three times if it's fast growing, and I bought one of those purple shampoos. Which I do sometimes use.

I think it's meant to highlight the whiter, grey parts. But to be honest, it's sat on the side of my bath for about two years, and it's still half full. I don't use it very often at all. 

My hair has got a little bit more flyaway, so I do use like a styling product that when I do blow dry it straight, I put a little bit of that in, and it just tames the flyaway bits. Because my hair is so thin, it gets very kinky. 

Although this last summer gone by, when it was really hot, I would just wash it, and let it dry. And again, embracing, the wave. So yeah, not a great deal, Helen. Not a great deal at all.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice or tips would you have for them?

Susan: I would say, just go for it. A very wise woman once said to me, when I first moved overseas on my own with my 9-year-old son, she said to me, Sue, you've done nothing that can't be undone. You can always buy a ticket and come back. 

Go for it if you don't like it, there's millions of boxes of dyes out there that you can put on, if you really don't like what you see. So, I would say give it a go. And yeah, just be curious, and see what happens.

I wasn't able to do this because all the hairdressers were shut, but I know there are women who have had like a grey dye put on top of their hair, to ease out the growing out process. Would I have done that if it was available to me? I don't know. But that is another option as well.

Just be curious. You dunno what's under all those years of dye. And if you are tempted, I think something inside you is saying, give it a go. So, I would listen to that in a voice, and just see what happens. See what appears for you.

Helen: I'm gonna say thanks so much for chatting to me. It's been fascinating hearing your story. And enjoy the rest of your day.

Susan: Thank you very much, Helen. You too.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.