Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Amanda Gillespie, who had a career spanning 40 years as a paediatric health professional, traveling extensively within the UK and contributing to the complex services within the NHS, charitable organizations, and the private sector. Many of the youngsters that she worked with remembered her because of her white hair. 

She's now retired and is developing an interest in creative arts, music, and the beautiful landscape of Northumberland. Hello, Amanda. How are you?

Amanda: Hello. I'm fine. Thank you.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Amanda: It was, very thick and curly, and a sort of dark chestnut colour.

Helen: Was it long or short?

Amanda: My mum always insisted on having it cut short, and of course, as a little girl, that was the last thing I wanted. But I have to say, I went on, did exactly the same thing with my daughter. 'cause her hair was completely outta control as well. She’s never forgiven me.

Helen: Do you think she did that because it was difficult to manage?

Amanda: Yes. Yeah, I do. And I think, 'cause I had quite a small face. I still have quite a small face. And I think she just thought, it suited me better short. And also, I don't think she wanted the rows about brushing hair, and all the horrors of hair washing. So, it helped.

Helen: See, I had mine long, until I started having nightmares about spiders in the bed, and it was my hair. And then it was cut short, because they were not having that.

Amanda: No. Well, I never really had it very long. The longest I ever had it was during COVID actually, where I couldn't get it cut. And it was actually right down to my shoulders. 

And I always really wanted long white hair once it had gone white. But actually, I discovered very quickly, yeah, it's a lot of hard work. And because I'm outside a lot, it just it didn't work for me. Even tying it back, it didn't work. So yeah, it's just got shorter and shorter since COVID, it is now the shortest it's ever been.

Helen: Whereas mine's probably as long as it was when I was five.

My next question is, can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Amanda: In my twenties, I started going grey very, very early. And by my mid-thirties it was very, very pepper and salt. Yeah, and then it just continued very rapidly to change colour.

Helen: How did you feel about those first white hairs?

Amanda: Oh, I hated it to start with. Absolutely hated it. And I think, 'cause I was in quite a busy work environment, and very aware that, there was definitely some judgment about it was old women that had grey hair. And it was quite a pacey job I was doing at the time. And there was this sort of general feeling that, I was obviously a lot older than I looked because of the colour of my hair.

And kids are the worst. They were the most prejudicial about my hair. And some of the kids I worked with did have sort of, filter issues about what they said. And certainly, a couple of times I've had it said to me, oh miss, you must be really old, 'cause you've got grey hair. 

And I would've been 35 at the time, so it just felt, well, I guess in the scheme of things, 35 was probably still quite old to them. But, you know, for me, being old with grey hair was someone in their sixties or seventies probably at the time. 

But, as it started to get greyer, I then had it dyed blonde. And this was a very radical decision. I didn't really think it through properly. I was meeting now my husband on a train, to get a flight to Venice. He hadn't seen me for probably about a month. So I had my hair dyed completely blonde. Put on dark glasses, and sat on the train. 

He got on at Peterborough, and he walked straight past me. He didn't recognize me. And all the way to the airport. He kept looking at me saying, it is you, isn't it? It is you. And it really threw him completely. 

I stayed like that probably for about three years. And really got a bit fed up with the cost, and also the length of time being spent in hairdressers. It didn't really suit me to be doing that. Although I liked the idea of it, and it looked smart, and it gave me a bit of a lift.

And then one day I just thought, I actually can't really afford to keep doing this. I'm just gonna leave it alone. And when it grew out. It was like this. 

Helen: Which is very white.

Amanda: All the colour had gone. Yeah. And I just thought, I've been paying all that money, and it looks amazing like this. I don't need any dye on it at all. And so that's how I sort of progressed through from the latter pepper and salt stage, and went straight to blonde, to white.

And I've never regretted it. I've always thought it's amazing to have a head of hair like this, when you are younger, because people remember you actually. They do remember you because it's slightly idiosyncratic. They're not quite used to younger people looking like that. 

And then there was a craze for a while, a fashion craze of very young women having sort of heavily dyed hair to the point of it being almost white. And I did have several young girls come up to me say, where'd you get your hair done? It's an amazing colour. I thought, well, there we go. That's fine. So, I've come full circle now, so yeah. 

And my mum is 91 now, and my hair is still whiter than hers, so you know, it's just one of those freaky things. But yeah, embrace it. Don't worry about it.

Helen: I'm gonna take you back then. So, can you remember why you decided to dye it when you dyed it?

Amanda: I think, 'cause we were going somewhere very stylish, and I'd never been to Venice. I was very excited about it. And I just wanted to look different. I just wanted to change. I didn't want to be a pepper and salt sort of 40-year-old. I wanted to be someone different. And so, it was a bit of a disguise I guess, as well.

And it was probably a little bit of a game with Graham to see how he'd cope with me looking slightly different. And it was probably, a bit of a mask as well, a little bit. It enabled me to hide behind the hair, if you like. And feel a bit more confidence as well. It did give me more confidence at the time, but the irony was that if I'd just stuck it out a wee bit longer, I didn't need to have had it dyed at all.

Helen: So did it give you confidence 'cause you felt a bit more glamorous with it?

Amanda: I think so. Yes. Yeah, I mean, not because of the colour specifically, it's just because it got rid of that sort of in-between stage of, not being grey, and not being sort of dark anymore. And I guess I'd had quite a few years being in that stage, and just wanted to change. 

Having said that, I'd never really dyed my hair before that. That was quite a radical thing for me to do. So, I must have been feeling in a bit of a bolshy mood, I think at the time.

Helen: Well, you said you had the dark glasses on as well.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I kept them on for most of the holiday as well.

Helen: Your hair is very white. Do you use any special shampoos and conditioners on it to keep it in good condition?

Amanda: Intermittently. Because now it won't hold colour very well, I have to be a little bit careful with the purple shampoos. Because if I use them too much, it does definitely give it that sort of slightly blue rinse tinge, which I don't like very much. 

So no, I don't use anything particularly special. I like if I can to buy, sort of organic, decent, biodegradable products if I possibly can. So that's the way I tend to go. But I'll have one bottle of something ridiculously expensive that I'll put on every so often. It's a bit of a gesture. 

I'm pretty rubbish about sort of beauty products and, yeah. But I think the other thing is that I sort of know when it needs a bit of a lift, so I'll put a product on it when it's looking a bit drab maybe. But yeah. 

And I think I'm now at a stage in my life where, I don't have to get dressed up to go to work anymore, which I sort of miss. I still have some standards, but I sort of feel if my skin is okay and my hair is okay, I'm good for the day really. I'm not gonna be putting on lots of makeup, or lots of hair product, to face the day. 

Again, that's been quite, a stage to go through. I think not feeling like I've got to do all those things anymore. And I'm quite comfortable with the way I look, even if I look a bit haggard at times. That's more about my life than it is about my hair, I think.

Helen: I find that actually one of the biggest adjustments. I used to work in an office for years. I was a marketing director, so obviously I had to be suited and booted, but in a little bit more sort of dress and leather jacket kind of a way. Now when I go shopping, it's very hard not to be drawn to those sorts of things.

And it's like, but they have no place in my life. 'cause my life is just much more relaxed now. And I've worked from home for seven years, so I didn't really need those sorts of clothes anyway. But it is, such a habit, you're kind of drawn to, this is my style. And it's like, well actually no, it isn't anymore. It's now a transition to something different.

Amanda: Yeah, and I think, you know, I said in the introduction that, 40 years of working you definitely have a face, and a look that you put on to go to work. It makes you feel a bit more confident, but it's also expected as well. 

I’ve found it quite a process over the last couple of years. Actually getting rid of clothes that were my work clothes. I'm actually quite fond of, but have no, as you say, no need for them anymore. And letting them go. And also rethinking, well, what am I gonna wear now? I could quite happily live in sort of leggings and baggy jumpers all the time, but I don't want to do that either.

So, I'm trying to find the middle ground at the moment. So, having my hair cut a bit shorter. Buying a pair of jeans that fit. That's been my target for this year. And next year we might go onto something else. 

But yeah, it sounds daft, but just getting a pair of jeans that look okay on you when you are no longer in your thirties, you are in your sixties. It's really important to me that they do fit, and they feel okay. And that's been quite a quest, but I've got that sorted now.

Helen: I live in jeans, when I'm not in my gym gear. Very occasionally dress, but not often.

Amanda: No. Well, the summer, particularly this hot summer, I found was a lovely excuse to wear more dresses. I really enjoyed that sort of thinking, oh, I actually need something summary to wear.

But yes, I mean, life's very much dogs, grandchildren, sort of scurrying around in the garden, which is my other sort of place where I love to be. So yeah, I don't exactly make much opportunity to wear something gorgeous. I'm always up to my knees in soil, or children.

Helen: Gonna take you back to a question on your hair. Do you ever find that it gets yellow?

Amanda: Yes. Yeah, in the sun. I mean, I try and wear a hat throughout the summer. 'Cause it's definitely the sunlight makes it go yellower. But it's just about impossible to stop it from happening. And the only way to get rid of it is get it cut out, which for me is not a problem because it grows really quickly.

But I dunno, with longer hair, whether that's, you find it a problem with longer hair or not?

Helen: I think my hair was only ever a dark blonde colour, and now it's very, very stripy.  You can see I've just got white streaks running through it. 

Amanda: Yeah.

Helen: Which kind of looks more like highlights anyway, 

Amanda: Yeah, yeah.

Helen: So, I don't think you notice the yellowing the same amount. 

Amanda: No.

Helen: But my hairdresser says I've not got yellow. Very loosely blow dry it once a week, but I never use any other kind of heat on it, and most people have said it's heat that really 

Amanda: Yes.

Helen: absolutely wrecks it.

Amanda: Yeah. I'm afraid it does. I mean, maybe my quest for next year is to find the right hat to wear. But yeah, I don't like it very much. But it does happen and all you can do is be cautious, and probably accept that it's going to happen. 

And that's probably when I would use some of the silver product shampoo, just to try and neutralize it a bit. But it's still there, you can't just sort of dye it away. It's still there definitely.

Helen: So, your hat's the biggest recommendation then?

Amanda: I think so, yes.

Helen: Next thing I'm gonna ask you is how do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Amanda: Well, I think mentally in my head, I'm not where I am physically. What I mean by that is, I still think I'm capable of doing everything I could do in my forties. And it comes as a bit of a surprise that some things are a little bit more challenging than they used to be. 

So, I definitely don't have the stamina that I used to have, and I find that really frustrating. 'cause my family will tell you, I never sit down. I'm always on the go, or I've always got so much to do in a day. I'm on the go the whole time. But I am finding now, I'm definitely having to use the mantra of do one less thing, rather than do one more thing in a day.

And that's a frustration, but I think you have to adapt a little bit to understanding how your body is working. And it's definitely age and stage, wear and tear. If you think how long your body's been working day in, day out to keep you upright, keep you moving around, to keep you functioning. We demand a lot of our bodies throughout our life.

And certainly, I've done a very physical job as well, working with kids, being down on the floor, having to move heavy equipment. So, when I can get into perspective, I just think, no, I'm fine actually for where I am now, I'm fine. I'm getting closer to 70th and 60 now, which is a bit scary.

But then I think, well, actually, if I'm still going to the gym when I'm 70, I'll be absolutely thrilled to bits. I won't see that as something that I have to work hard to do. I'll just see it as, wow, I'm still here. I'm doing it. Health is the most important thing. I think one of the hardest things about getting a bit older is that people around you start to get sick.

I'm at that stage in life where I still have one parent alive, but I also have grandchildren, and children. So, there's a lot of care responsibility across the board now at this point. And so, I get pulled in lots of different directions. And I sort of feel, I've gotta stay fit and healthy because there are all these different directions to be pulled in.

But also, just being grateful for being well, when lots of people aren't. So, yeah, and keep working on that as well, keeping up all the things you need to do to keep feeling well and healthy.

Helen: I was gonna ask you that. So, what sorts of things are you doing to age healthily? I know you go to the gym, that’s how I met you.

Amanda: Yeah, well that, I mean, that's a relatively new thing in my life. I've just reached my year one achievement of going there for a whole year. And that's massive for me to be committed to something that is indoors and exercising. 'cause I've always hated being indoors and doing exercise. I'd always want to be outdoors, so for me that's massive. But I have felt the benefits of it, and so I can see how important that is. 

I think the thing about retirement, apart from the nice clothes and hair stuff, it's about how you establish some kind of meaningful routine for yourself as well. That is not about filling time, but it's about having some purpose. And still getting up at a reasonable time in the morning and cracking on with the day.

So, the gym has really helped me with that because I'm committed to going to that two or three times a week, and I know I'm going to be doing that. So, I think filling the time with purpose is one way of actually, it is mentally stimulating as well as physically maintaining. And I've begun to realize I really need to have that kind of stimulation, whether it's socializing with other people while being in the gym, or, you know, having the alarm clock go off at the same time.

I've always eaten well. I've always cooked, and I'm delighted that my kids have carried on with that as well. I shop for fresh vegetables, and I cook with fresh produce, which I really enjoy. 

What else do I do?

Helen: I think you have a dog?

Amanda: Oh yeah, the dog, big time. Yes. Yeah. And he's been a bit of a project over the last couple of years because I wanted him to get to a level where I could register as a pat dog owner.

And we've been volunteering today. We've been at the local hospice visiting people today, just him and me. And actually, I nearly sent you his picture for the profile, 'cause I'm enormously proud of that. It's not been easy. He's naturally a very bouncy, energetic dog, but he's also very affectionate, and he seems to have got the message that when he is in there, he has to be very calm.

And so that's also mentally stimulating for me, because I have to sort of work on the social engagement whilst keeping an eye on him, making sure he's okay as well. So that's another thing that's brought something into my life. But obviously I'm exercising him every day as well. And I'm never happier than when I'm out on the hills with him.

I guess one of the things I miss the most is I was living on the Borders, in a very remote spot, when I first had him as a puppy. And I had visualized many, many walks up in the Cheviots every day. 'cause I could just walk up one from my front door. It was just beautiful.

And it has taken quite a lot of adjustment to be in a far less rural area, and not be able to get away quite so much into remote spots. But, as time goes on, I'm exploring, and finding other areas. And I'll always be grateful for the six years I had there. It was really wonderful. But I could have quite happily become a bit of a recluse up there as well. I think Graham had to come and haul me out eventually in the end. 

I think walking in the outdoors is something absolutely essential to me. If it's a nice day, I'm just itching to be out. I don't like being indoors very much. I just wanna be out there. I'm not a big bird watcher, but I'm always looking out for birds, seeing what I can see, what I can spot, and wildlife. And I've been lucky enough to live in amazing places where there's a lot to see.

I find that there's something very spiritual about tha,t and something extraordinary about being in quiet places, and just being part of it rather than, you know, being on the exterior of it. So that's what keeps me going, definitely.

Helen: I can understand that, I either run or walk outside every day, and it's kind of where I go to decompress.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Apparently, I'm unbearable if I don't go out at least once a day.

Helen: And also, 'cause I'm an introvert, it is kind of my recovery place. So tomorrow I'm going networking in the morning, and that will make me really tired. 

Amanda: Yeah.

Helen: So, I then have to get out, and even if it's raining, I still have to get out.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the good thing about the dog. I have no option whatever the weather. And quite often the worst days are the days you have the most amazing experiences. You see something, or you hear something, or the light just falls in a particular way. 

My Dad was a very keen amateur photographer. And I think he taught me a lot about just quietly looking, stopping and looking, and being quiet. And it is a lovely, lovely skill to have if you can develop it, because you'd be amazed how much you see. You know, even if it's just a little drop of water running off a spider's web. It's as small as that, but it can be just so perfect.

Helen: I didn't ask you what kind of dog is it?

Amanda: He is an Australian Labradoodle, which was the original labradoodles that were bred for being, health dogs who were hypo-allergenic. But they're now cross-bred with Spaniels, so they have a quite a different nature from a pure, labrador poodle cross. They're very, very affectionate dogs, but too affectionate at times.

But, as a companion dog, he's fantastic. But he can be quite idiosyncratic. One day you'll go out for a walk and you'll just refuse to go, and then the next day you'll be bounding along, having a great time. So yeah. And yeah, you can go into a hospice for two hours and just be amazing. So yeah, I just use the best bits.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any advice or tips for them?

Amanda: Find a good hairdresser, and make sure you have it cut how you really want it. Whether it's long or short, just be happy with the way it's cut. 'cause that makes such a difference to how it actually looks. And just be confident about it. 

Don't worry about what other people are thinking because you will look great. It is amazing. Now I see it as a real gift. I didn't in my thirties, but I do now. Which is ironic given that most people in their sixties have gone grey anyway, but there we are.

Helen: Cool. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you.

Amanda: Oh, thank you for having me. It's been lovely to speak to you. Take care.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.