Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Janet Stevens. She helps families navigate house clearances after bereavement with care and respect. With over 20 years experience working in the vintage and antiques trade, more than a decade supporting estate clearances, she brings both practical experience and empathy to what can be an overwhelming challenge.

Good morning, Janet. How are you?

Janet: I am well. Thank you, Helen. Thank you for inviting me on.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Janet: To be honest, I can't remember a specific date. I think because I'd been kind of like dyeing, and highlighting my hair. But in that kind of, I dunno, ashy blonde, sort of tonal range. When the greys were coming through, it wasn't desperately obvious. 

I think maybe about eight years ago, I'd noticed that if I hadn't dyed my hair for a period, you know, I'd notice some subtle differences at the root. So, yeah, maybe about eight years ago, I think.

Helen: Okay, so you started dyeing your hair before then. In the beginning just experimenting from a sort of fashion and style perspective?

Janet: Yeah, very much so. I think I'd just gone in that phase of, I never liked an overall hair colour over the full, you know, my full hair. So, I'd always been doing like highlights, low lights. 

Well, not me. When I say me, I mean the hairdresser had been doing them for me for yeah, quite a period of time, and my hair had been short as well. So, it kind of lended itself to, yeah, it was just a quick thing that it did. It never felt like a massive chew for the hairdresser to do it. 

So yeah, it was very much just a fashion sort of trend look that I'd kind of dropped onto, and stuck with for quite a long period of time. So yeah, probably been doing that for like, God, crikey, I'm 56 now, so probably 15 or 20 years even. That had been part of my routine, if you like.

Helen: And had you ever experimented with colouring your hair when you were in your teens and things like that?

Janet: No, not so much actually. Yeah, I might have had the odd, you know, like we used to do the washing in, wash out things, you know, but that's as far as it went. Something that had literally last, you know, a couple of washes. 

The packet that you got on a weekend when you went out and you were, you know, either buying fabric, or buying clothes, or bits like you did as a teenager. But yeah, nothing ever more permanent than that.

Helen: What colour was your hair before you started dye it?

Janet: It was always like a brown, like a yeah mid brown, you know, nothing dramatic. I had when I was younger, slightly more gingery, maybe strawberry blondie sort of tones to it. But as you age, these things change, don't they? So yeah, just a fairly ordinary, kind of mid brown, I'd say. 

But yeah, I just liked it when you got into that phase, I think it was probably when I started earning a little bit of money, that you could afford to do these things and go to the hairdresser, and invest in, you know, having different things done. That's when the highlighting sort of started. So yeah, it always worked quite well, but just pursued it for years. It became the norm to do it.

Helen: Yeah, I think you just get into a habit. I used to have my hair bleached blonde, and I used to make the appointment as I was leaving for the next colour.

Janet: Yeah, very common, isn't it? Yeah.

Helen: Yes, you just don't even think about it.

Janet: It’s a business tactic for hairdressers, actually. But yeah, you just did, you just got in a routine, and it was just what you did. And that was part of getting my hair cut, was just getting the highlights done as well.

Helen: How was the condition of your hair when you had it highlighted?

Janet: Not bad, but I think because it wasn't an all over colour. You know, and I wasn't constantly doing stuff at home. I have been lucky to have good hairdressers, if you know what I mean, that were, yeah, careful. And yeah, it always looked fine. It always looked fine. I never went through phases.

And 'cause it was short in getting it cut regularly, I think that helped with the condition of it, if you know what I mean. So, yeah, it wasn't anything I had to worry about.

Helen: So, what was the catalyst for deciding to grow out, and go grey?

Janet: I think it was kind of, my husband had said for a while, you've gone to such a pale kind of colour. Why are you doing it? I'm not sure why you're doing it. Why do you want to keep doing it? 'cause he said, you know, I think you'd look great without it. So, I thought, well, yeah, fair enough. 

I didn't know if I was ready to let go of that kind of routine really, and accept it. And again, I think my hairdresser at the time. I think I was just, the way my hair, unlike my sister, it's very strange how we all go grey differently, isn't it? 

My sister, she dyed her hair for years and had a very prominent root. So, when she wasn't dyeing, it was very, very obvious. You know, really harsh sort of root. Where mine was never really like that.

 And my grey, although it's kind of everywhere now, and more underneath, if that makes sense. It really started growing grey, a bit like a Mallen streak. So, if you know what I'm mean, 

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: If you remember a good old Catherine Cookson. So, it sort of framed my face. It almost looked very deliberate. 

And I think things had started to change around that period, wasn't it really eight years ago of, there was a trend for people dyeing their hair grey as well.  There was a big shift there, I think, in attitudes toward it, where you saw sort of certain models or, you know, there was a big thing about dyeing your hair grey. 

And it was the hairdresser that said, I think if you just, you know, shall we, not this time, you know, let's leave it because of the way your hair's turning grey. I think it just looks like a highlight anyway. So, yeah, I was encouraged by them really. To just, yeah, stop. Just stop and embrace it, you know, and see what happened.

And always that thing with a hairdresser saying, if you don't like it, we'll go back. 

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: You can start again, but why don't you just, yeah, I think it looks good. And, you know, we could work with that and we'll cut it in a certain way that'll just sort of emphasize it. And she said, I think it'll look like a deliberate thing, so why don't you give it a go. And that was it. 

And I never went back. Never went back. Yeah. Never went back. I think it was because the tone was so, like I say, it was similar in some ways, that it almost then began to seem a bit daft to do it. Because there wasn't much difference. You know, there wasn't much difference to what was naturally going on.

So, yeah, I just sort of let it slide and sort of went into it rather than making, I can't say I made a very conscious, you know,

Helen: Hmm.

Janet: statement and decision. It was just something that naturally, I sort of fell into really, encouraged by those two people to just let it go, and give it a go. So, yeah.

Helen: Okay. I think my pattern is very similar to yours. So, mine's white at the front and underneath, so when I tie it back, people think it's very white. But then if I get it down, you can see my ponytail's really still quite dark. When it's down, it looks almost like it's blonde highlighted, rather than actually very grey. But I love it that way. 

I'm assuming you didn't have much of a line then during the grow out? 

Janet: No, I was very lucky because as I say, the way it worked, it was coming through in streaks rather than an overall. So again, it just looked like a variation on a highlight, if you know what I mean. 

So, yeah. No, it didn't look too bad, and because the tones were pale, it wasn't as it was growing through, even those that had been highlighted didn't obviously look strange. So, I think from that point of view, it was very easy for me. It was just lucky.

Helen: How long was your hair when you grew it out?

Janet: Probably similar, only like shoulder. Not even quite shoulder length. I've always kept it shorter like this for quite a few years now, so yeah. And it was regularly getting cut and you know.

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: It's not like yourself, you know, longer hair where you're kind of waiting for this. Again, my sister has longer hair, similar to yourself, so it was quite a big undertaking, and a challenge for her to let it grow out. She did have a lot of discomfort over it, I think, to get it to a certain point, you know? Yeah. So, I'm lucky. It was just easier for me to manage it really.

Helen: And did it take about a year and a half, or something guessing from the length that you've got?

Janet: Yeah, if that even my hair does go quite quickly.

I think it's just gone finer, as I've gone sort of, you know, obviously getting into menopause and things. So, yeah, if anything it's just sort of been finer, so that's been more of a challenge, you know. Accepting that you're getting thinner hair and, you know, managing that. 

But yeah, probably about a year, a year and a half, no more, no more than that.

Helen: I think you sound like you've had one of the easiest grow outs of anyone I've spoken to.

Janet: Yeah, it wasn't too challenging and I appreciate that. I am lucky. 

Yeah, and then again, I think it got into that whole thing where maybe it was easier, I mean, who'd heard of purple shampoo up until. You know, when did that become such a big thing? So again, I was sort of put onto that by a friend who's a beauty salon owner. She was like a massive fan of this thing that came out. 

And again, I think originally, not that many years ago, you had to hunt it out. It was almost like this. Yeah, it wasn't, I suppose it came about when the whole fashion and people started dying, their hair grey. It became more of a phenomenon. 

But I remember having to hunt out in these obscure little chemists, the purple shampoo that I was recommended, you know. Like it was this old school kind of thing, you know, it wasn't like there's a massive array of stuff like there is now. And then using that and leaving that on, I think just helped to tone, and blend everything else as it was growing, as it was growing out. So that helped. 

But I think again, it is that whole thing, isn't it? It just became more acceptable to do this. Yeah, and then you get prominent figures, don't you as well, that have embraced the sort of grey actresses or whatever, and you know. It just has become a bit more of a norm, you know.

What I struggled with Helen, is at that phase, I found it easier to be going grey in the summer, when you had a little colour on your face, you know, naturally that seemed to work really well. 

In the depths of winter, that's when if I was ever tempted to start dyeing again, it was then. When I would feel that the grey would kind of just make me look a bit washed out. When we were all a bit like this, like January, you know, it's all a bit cold and miserable, and summer glow is long since gone, and you're then feeling a bit pasty. 

But if any time, that would be when I would be tempted to go back, and get to the hairdressers. But yeah, in the summer when you've got a bit of colour, I think grey looks fantastic.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah, I've been out for a walk this morning, and obviously it's very cold in the UK at the moment, so I'm quite pink cheeked.

 I was gonna ask you, how did your friends and family react?

Janet: Because it was so subtle, and because of the way that the highlights had worked, I think it took people a while to even notice. Which again, just shows you that you become, you know, sometimes preoccupied about these things, and other people aren't actually paying that much attention, so yeah. I don't think I had any particular comments or anything like that. It was more just a gradual thing. No, I don't honestly remember any comments about my hair at all. 

I think plenty of people get commented on in terms of, you know, whether you've lost, or gained weight. You know, things like that. I've noted over the years that people have had plenty to, say about. But yeah, not so much my hair. Yeah, no, I think it's just that general acceptance.

And again, it's those changes isn't it, of, you know, how often were people talking about menopause even sort of eight to 10 years ago? You know, and the changes that a woman, goes through. Where now obviously it's just, quite rightly, a topic of interest, isn't it? That people are discussing these things a bit more openly, and what it means to actually. Age as a woman and the challenges involved as well, I think whether that's emotional or physical. Yeah, I think people are a bit more accepting about. 

Did you have comments when you decided to go grey then Helen?

Helen: My husband wasn't very keen on the idea. So, my husband is seven years younger than me, and he had never known me without bleached blonde hair. So, he wasn't very keen. 

So, I went grey in COVID, like many people. I'd been exploring the idea for a couple of years beforehand, 'cause I worked with a woman who had absolutely white hair, and I just thought it was beautiful. I was just like, my God, if my hair was like that, I would do it tomorrow. 

So, I'd been thinking about it for a while, and kind of the hairdresser and my husband, so the opposite to you were the ones that were like, oh, you know, I am not sure that you should. So, when COVID happened, I was just like, well, I'm already in a mindset of thinking that I might do this. So, I will.  And you know, as with you, if you don't like it, you can always start dyeing it again. 

I had a more of a marked line 'cause it was a solid blonde colour that I had, with an extra highlight in the front where my hair's the paler. And I think I was probably more conscious of it than other people, which again, people have said to me.

And I think also it's so ingrained in you that roots are a bad thing, and that you should cover them, after doing it for so many years. That a lot of it's just in your head, especially in those early days. And quite a few people that I've spoken to on the Podcast have talked about being judged, or thinking they're being judged in those like first couple of inches, for being lazy and not going to the hairdressers. And people just thinking, you know, oh, she's can't really be bothered. Whereas when it gets beyond that point, it's obvious that it's purposeful, 

Janet: Yeah.

Helen: rather than anything else. 

So, yeah, my hair was a lot shorter than it's now, 'cause my hair now is like halfway down my back. My hair was about shoulder length when I started growing it out. And I had it at some points cut up, and layered just to get rid of the blonde quicker. 'cause I definitely reached a point of going, I really don't like the stripe. 

So, I can't imagine what it's like for people who have more grey than me, and have dark hair dye. The ones who sort of have the skunk stripe, that really does take some courage. I think but I think a couple of things have changed, definitely around the menopause, as you've said. COVID has made a huge difference. 

And then also because more people are going grey, I'm also hearing more people talking about things like grey blending. So, having it dyed to kind of ease the transition. 'cause the hardest part I think for most people is the line, and the time that it takes because it, does as they say, like a year to the ear. So, it does take a while. 

And you are always gonna have good days and bad days. But I always say to people on here, it's like, well, did you not have bad hair days before? It’s like, yeah, we all have days when we wake up and go, my hair looks a mess, irrespective of whether we are doing a grow out, or not.

And also, I think people forget that in the same way that we are very preoccupied with ourselves, and how other people are gonna perceive ourselves. So is everyone else. So, they rarely look at someone else with that sort of level of consciousness that we expect. So yeah, I think for most people the journey's a lot less painful than they anticipate, in terms of judgment.

Janet: Yeah, no, I'd agree. I'd agree. Like I say maybe I've been lucky, but, yeah, totally. People are less interested in you than you think that they are, you know. And in many ways as a woman, I think you will have had, you know, comments over the years that now you would deem to be rather insensitive, you know. Like I say, comments about weight, comments about other things, you know, appearance. And it's just unfortunate that people do that, that they feel they need to express these things to you. 

So going grey is just another one, that you've probably heard worse over the years, haven't you, from people just being rather insensitive about things. So yeah, it shouldn't put you off if you want to do it. 

I think we all just come under an awful lot of pressure, society has still got a long way to go, hasn't it? About changing attitudes around the obsession with youth and you know, what it means to be, you know, youthful, or try and perpetually chase that. 

I think probably what's more disturbing now is that sort of growth in aesthetics, or whether they like to call it, you know. Whether it's injections or whatever. Which is everybody's entitlements to do. But only again, if they see that as a positive thing for themselves rather than, you know, feeling pressured to perpetually try and keep this everlasting youthfulness going, you know, which is, it's not life is it?

Helen: I think the beauty industry are very keen to encourage us to chase the aesthetic of being 25, 30 

Janet: Yeah.

Helen: if you are in your forties, fifties, sixties. 

Whereas for me, I'm like, well, what I actually wanna do is age healthily. My Mum is 90, and lives independently, I want to be her. So, you then are saying, right well, I'm probably taking the emphasis off the aesthetic. Certainly, trying to look younger aesthetic, and more going, well, what do I need to do in terms of my health, my fitness, my connection, to be in a place where I can be like her?

Janet: Yeah, I'd agree. Absolutely. I think it is just about trying to, I wish, well, again, I think it's maybe gradually happening, but we're never gonna shirk off this obsession with youth easily, are we? It's too ingrained in society. But hopefully there'll be subtle shifts for people to just, women to take back that kind of power, really to make decisions for themselves.

And as you say, make, hopefully make the choice of, more healthily, you know.

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: trying to be stronger, healthier as we age to just, you know. And again, I think that probably adds to your overall appearance anyway. I think if you're enjoying the benefits 

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: of trying to be healthier, and fitter, and all the rest of it that comes through in how your appearance is anyway. So that's far more preferable, I think to, you know, trying to artificially chase these things. But I say it's just choice, isn't it? It's about choice.

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: just like going grey, it's a choice, and it's how you view it. It's no shame. It's whatever you for yourself, rather than feeling that you have to do something

Helen: Yeah.

Janet: in order to please other people, or chase some ideal, so.

Helen: Okay, I'm gonna ask you something else, 'cause you're wearing a lovely bright red jumper, and red lipstick. Have you found the colours that you've worn have changed at all since you chose to go grey?

Janet: Yeah, I think they have actually, yes. I don't have a massive array of really bright colours, but I do choose colour, particularly at this time of year, more than I used to. Everything used to be black. I had a massive black, kind of monochrome wardrobe, yeah. Professionally as well, I think just in, you know, previous posts that I had, it was always leading that way to just having sort of a lot of black on. And I still like wearing black. But yeah, I do embrace more colour now. 

And lipstick, definitely. And again, that's been a change probably over the last, maybe three years. That I feel that it just lifts me up really. I do minimum makeup myself. I always have. But yeah, where I've been quite neutral, again, particularly at this time of year, to try and avoid the feeling of the grey accentuating me, looking a bit washed out. I kind of balance it out with a little bit of red lipstick.

It's the challenge of finding the right red lipstick. I think that's the difficult thing. It's probably the most awkward shade to try and find your fit, for your colouring. But once you do, yeah. Yeah, no, I do enjoy wearing red lipstick. I feel kind of finished off when I put the red lipstick on. 

Helen: One of my first ever guests, that was kind of her statement since she's gone grey, is that she wears red lipstick. And she didn't do it before, but it's kind of like the look now.

Janet: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same. Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's that thing as well of feeling like, well, I dunno, does it make me feel less invisible? I don't know. I think there is that aspect as well, when you are ageing, is probably it is a genuine feeling that I think, you know, comes across people sometimes when we're age, regardless of what we're doing with our hair, is that sense of becoming a bit more invisible as like a midlife woman. 

Yeah, maybe the red lipstick was a counter thing to that for me to you know, try and bolster myself up. So, I felt slightly less invisible. But yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, how we come across these thoughts and, you know.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. 

Janet: Sure.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice and tips would you have for them?

Janet: Talk to your hairdresser for sure. You know, whoever it is that's, helping you maintain your hair, have that conversation with them. 

I think if you've got trusted friends, I'd maybe share it with them as well, and get those thoughts. Hopefully that might, you know, reinforce that aspect that, people aren't as bothered about these things. You know, don't have strong opinions about it as you might think.

And give it a go. Because you can, if you can go through that pain barrier of just trying and allowing it to grow out, then you know, if you are really struggling with it or you don't like it, you can go back. Nothing to stop you going back. So just give it a try.

Helen: Cool. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Janet: Thank you, Helen.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.