Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Emma Blaker. She's the face of Blaker's Blades, a mobile barbering business built on kindness, calm, and gentle conversation. After years in education and recruitment, she now uses those people skills to deliver thoughtful, inclusive haircuts in the community, and proudly embraces her own grey hair.

Believing, being yourself never goes out of style. Hello, Emma. How are you?

Emma: Hello. I'm very well, thank you. It's lovely to chat to you today.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Emma: I was looking back actually at some photos in the days when you put them in the albums, and I kind of had a little bit of a sort of bowly cut going on, with some sort of flicked out ends. 

My hair was quite wispy. I didn't have a lot of hair till I was about three or so. And it kind of was, I guess a mid, mid sort of to dark brown, with a little bit of a warm sort of auburn edge to it.

But generally, it was quite wispy. And I always wanted really long hair, so I used to go round I had a yellow blanket, and I used to put it on my head, and I put a band in it. So, I used to have it in a ponytail with this blanket on because that's what I desperately wanted. And, I've never managed to grow my hair. It grows to a certain length. It's quite fine and wispy. 

So, yes, I dunno whether I liked my hair growing up. It always felt quite difficult. It never felt like it really did what I wanted it to do. I looked at friends, you know, had long sort of flowing hair. 

It was quite straight as well when I was younger, so it's got curlier as I've got older. I'll be 51 this year. So, it seems to have got curlier, and curlier. I think in line with going through sort of perimenopause, and so on, and having children. It's changed in texture, and yeah, the curls, waves, should I say. 

Helen: Did you ever experiment with colouring it when you were in your teens?

Emma: I did, yes. I think my first probably sort of dive into colour would've been the old henna. Which I always remember that had such a sort of, I dunno if it was a horrid smell, but I never found it particularly pleasant smell. It smelled quite sort of earthy and a bit. So, I used to use henna, and I dunno, looking back, it gave me a sort of orange brownie, orange tinge, so I hennaed it a lot. 

And then I used to use those, get 'em in a packet in the supermarkets. They're like a wash in, wash out colour. And they lasted about, I don't know, six to eight washes. I used those for a long, long time, probably many, many years.

And then I remember having it coloured in a well-known salon in London. I had it sort of badgers striped. It was like blonde with a dark brown streak. Predominantly I had it sort of auburny colours. Copper was quite a common one, and red, you know, sort of like burgundy red. I guess I had coloured it probably from the age of about maybe 17 or 18, probably, maybe.

Helen: Okay, were and you were colouring it all the time then?

Emma: Fairly consistently. Yeah. I never had permanent colour put on it. So it was either wash in, wash out, or like a semi-permanent. And I did have some hair sort of colour disasters.

One I remember vividly when I was travelling in Australia with a friend, when I'd done my A Levels, and I went to a salon, and I wanted it sort of auburny, and it literally looked orange, Helen. And I'd also had it cut short, so I experimented a lot. It was quite short, and spiky, and stuff, and it just looked horrific. So, I went into a supermarket in Darwin and got some dye, and it ended up going black. 

And I remember coming back home, and my Mum meeting me at the airport, and I just had this baseball cap on, and I wouldn't take it off for weeks. And I gradually, I think, sorted it out, went to the hairdressers and they got it back to some sort of brown tone. But, yes, I've had some interesting experiences. 

And I loved colouring my hair, actually, if I'm totally honest. I don't know, it always felt nice and smooth. When I'd had it coloured, or gone to the hairdressers and had it done it felt lovely and smooth, but for a very short while. And then it would start to feel very dry, you know, because it was probably damaged from all the years colouring.

And then I guess it was a vicious cycle, and I'd be like, back there getting it coloured. I didn't have it coloured, you know, maybe every six to eight weeks, I suppose. You know, that's how often I would sort of do it. But I liked it looking different. I got bored of it easily,

Helen: So, it was part of your style over all?

Emma: I think. So, yeah, definitely I would say so, yes.

Helen: Can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Emma: I can't really. But I was looking back through my camera roll, and I remember my friend, it was back in sort of 2020, maybe just sort of around Lockdown or before Lockdown, I dunno. We were in a cafe or something, and I said to her, oh, my hair's got really, I was sort of aware it was going grey, or I could see some greys, and she took a picture of the top of my head.

So that was when I was properly started to think, I wonder how grey I am? And it was all in the crown. So, I think my hair, that's where it became noticeable. And I had a hairdresser in my village, and she said to me sort of shortly after that, I asked her and she said, you are probably about, I think she sort of said 80% grey, which I was quite surprised about really.

 'Cause I'd always coloured it. I never really had noticed. And it wasn't really around the temples, it was at the back, so I guess I hadn't noticed it. And it was right at the crown. 

And so, I started to go lighter. So, she sort of did an all over lighter colour. And then I had some lighter highlights through it, so it kind of blended with the section that was going grey on the crown. And I continued like that for a while. 

And then during Lockdown, obviously we couldn't go to the hairdresser, and I started using sort of, I dunno if want a better word, sort of quite wacky colours. So, I'd have like a bit of pink in my hair, and a bit of like aqua blue. And it took really well, I think because it was quite grey, it was quite bright, and it was fun. As it washed out with the sort of fun colours I was using, I noticed more of the grey, and I quite liked it. 

I sort of noticed that my skin looked a bit fresher. And I thought it was a strange thing. And I still think it's strange now, because when I was younger, the thought if someone has said to me, you know, you'll just decide to go grey, by the time you're 50. I would've literally laughed at them because I thought I would colour my hair literally into my eighties.

I just couldn't visualize it because I've got quite warm skin tones and I wear quite warm. I couldn't see how, to me, grey is a cool colour, so I couldn't see how the two sort of would match up. But I guess I have a lot of different tones to my hair still. I think it's probably still, transitioning. 

Helen: Yeah.

Emma: My Mum is in her late seventies now, and she stopped dyeing her hair about, maybe around a similar time actually to me, and hers is sort of very white now. So, whether mine will continue, I have white sections in it, and darker grey, and underneath it's still a bit brown. So, I think it's still changing, but it's been like this now for, you know, a good few years. 

So sorry, in answer to your question, no, I can't remember when I spotted one. I just remember feeling, I don't know, as I've gone through the process. I mean, it sounds a little bit sort of cringeworthy really, but it does, it feels like one of the most liberating things in my life to date. Which I mean, sounds, maybe sounds a little bit ridiculous, and I'm not particularly spiritual. 

I don't know. I just, I just don't care. I think it just, I think it's a whole host of things. You know, you get to a certain age and things change, and my children are growing up and I just, I love it. I absolutely love it. And I have lots of lovely compliments.

In a garage quite a few years ago, somebody asked me what hair colour I used on my hair. And I said this is just my hair colour. And they were like, oh, I thought you, you know, went to the hairdressers and you had it highlighted like that. And no, that's just how it's gone.

So, I'm pleased with how it's gone, if you see what I mean. I think the apprehensions may be over if it's grey and it's not what you want. But then I guess if you don't like it, you don't have to stick with it, do you? So.

Helen: No. No. I think you've got quite an unusual pattern. I think most people I've spoken to kind of have the front is where it goes white first.

Emma: No, it was bizarre. I didn't realize, really. And I suspect the greys had probably been there from my early to mid-thirties, I would suspect. 'Cause my Mum started going great at quite a young age, and was obsessed with colouring her hair. So, yeah, I didn't realize really, and it didn't really phase me when it happened.

And I remember my Mum saying to me when I did start to go grey, she said, oh, you know, you'll colour it again. You'll colour it again when you get out of Lockdown and stuff. And I kept saying, I don't think I will. And I haven't. 

And the only thing I do do, and I know it's still colouring, but I occasionally, I have put the blue, I love this blue that I put in my hair, and occasionally if I just feel a bit rebellious, I put some blue on the ends. And it washes out. It takes a couple of months, but I'm never hiding the grey, if that makes sense. 

I just like, I love colour anyway. I'm obsessed with bright colours, and rainbows, brings joy to me, so I think it's just an extension really, of how I dress and being a bit quirky maybe, so. 

Helen: I had another guest who, has bright pink stripes in it sometimes.

Emma: Okay.

Helen: Just to brighten it up. I think it's fine.

Emma: I think it's sort of part of the style and of the grey shade. It is just a different dimension, so. I guess yes, it's still colour, but I just see it as an extension of my natural colour.

Helen: Yeah.

Emma: And then I'm just kind of playing around. It's a bit of fun, isn't it, I suppose.

Helen: Yeah. It's just what you feel comfortable with, basically.

Emma: Yes. Yeah.

Helen: So do you use any special shampoos or anything?

Emma: Well, when I started to go grey, I sort of joined various groups on Facebook, and used to lurk. And I did for a while try, there's a sort of like a 1, 2, 3 wash method, which, or a zero wash is like, where you sort of reset it if you're using products. And then in between there's certain shampoos, and it's all to do with whether they've got Sulphate free, and that sort of thing. And I did that for a while.

But I don't religiously use a set shampoo. I do have a sort of, a bit of a reset shampoo, and every maybe month or so, I will just do that just to get rid of any build-up. Because I use like a scrunch jelly in my hair. So, my hair routine is very low maintenance. So, I never use a hair dryer. I haven't used a hair dryer for years. I can't be doing with it. I just don't bother. 

So, I shower generally at night, and I get out of the shower when it's wet still, and I put one of these special, you know, towels on it. Leave it for five minutes. And then I get this, it's called Scrunch Jelly, the one I use, and I just sort of plop it into my hair. Not at the top, 'cause I don't like it to be too there. But I just sort of do it here. And then I leave it to dry, and it goes crispy, which isn't very nice. But then when it's dry, I clap it out. So that is my process. 

My children laugh at me. 'cause sometimes I sit at traffic lights, and I remember it's still crunchy, and I'm clapping it. And they say, oh gosh, she's doing it. She's on one again. So that's my hair routine. 

And then in the morning. I kind of see what it might need. I have a little bottle made up with water predominantly, and a bit of conditioner, so I might just spritz it. But I think with my hair as I say, it's fine. It's quite frizzy. It's ringletier underneath than it is on the top. So, I find that just spritzing it, it reinvigorates the wave. But I find the less I fiddle with it, the better it is. 

And if I go out and it's slightly damp, that's the best for my hair because the curls will feel wonderful and I come back. So you know, some days it's better than others. And if I don't like it one day, I might put, I'm a bit obsessed with different coloured clips and things to go with outfits, so I clip it up, or I sometimes wear it in little buns on the side of my head. Or just, you know, little ponytail. 

But as I say, there's not much of it. It's quite fine. So, I just have it, you know, blunt cut at the ends every, I don't know, 9 or 10 weeks, not very often. So, I feel it's low maintenance.

Helen: Mine gets washed once a week.

Emma: To be fair, only wash it probably twice a week. Yeah. I'm not a fan of washing it too often. 

Helen: So, you said when you went grey, you felt that it kind of went with your skin tone better.

Emma: Yeah.

Helen: Have you changed your makeup at all?

Emma: I've always been a big lipstick fan. So I'm not a huge wearer of lots of makeup, and I don't dunno, I'm never that fussed about eyes. I'm mean, wear a bit of mascara, but. For me, I'm quite pale, so I always like to make sure I've got some blusher on, and a bright lipstick. But to be honest, I've probably always worn a bright lipstick.

I have different shades of lipstick in my, I seem to do a lot in my car, so I clap my hair and I've got little lipsticks, and again, when I used to do the school run when the kids were little, as long as I had some lipstick on, I didn't care what the rest of me was doing. And I'm still like that today.

Even if I'm in my house and my lips haven't got lipstick on, I feel a bit washed out. And that's probably become more so since I've embraced the grey. I like to, make sure I've got my lipstick on. I think I got it from my Mum again. She's obsessed with lipstick, so.

Helen: I'm always super impressed with anyone who wears lipstick. Can't keep it on for more than about five minutes.

Emma: Oh, but it does come off. That's the only problem. Yeah, it does sort of come off quite quickly, doesn't it? So especially amount of tea I drink.

Helen: Have you found the colours that you wear changed at all since you chose to go grey?

Emma: You know, it's funny she say that my colours done when I was a lot younger, and I think I was Autumn, you know, when they do your sort of seasonal palette. And they said, I was like an autumn leaf, you know, so all the different colours through the seasons, the leaves might go. 

But I have noticed, and one of the colours I used to wear a lot of, I used to wear quite a lot of like a warm beige, or chocolate browns. And I'm not so keen on those colours sort of near my face now. So, like I'd be all right if I wore, I don’t know chocolate brown, you know, trousers or something. But as long as I've got some colour near my face. 

But having said that, I do like soft colours as well, so like, you know, sort of a soft, peachy pink, or you know, like a soft aqua that, or like a soft, like a sort of harebell blue. So, I think I've slightly tweaked probably the colours I wear.

Because I think when my hair was dark brown, or it had sort of coppery shades, I think I didn't need to compensate. You know, I could wear maybe more beige, and stuff. But beige I don't think looks great so much against the grey. So, I think it's just about maybe different colours within my seasonal palette.

Helen: Yeah, so kind of softer colours?

Emma: A little bit. Yes, a little bit. 

Helen: Today you're wearing a like a gingery colour, and that really suits you.

Emma: Yeah. It's a, it's a sort of. Yes, it's just a little tank top thing. It's got pale blue, and then sort of like a burnt orange, I guess. And orange is one of my favourite colours. In fact, it's branding colour in my business. So, bit obsessed. Orange and teal I like.

Helen: So, your business,

Emma: Yes

Helen: you are a mobile barber these days.

Emma: I am. Yes.

Helen: Do you only cut men’s hair?

Emma: I cut men's hair. I do have a few female clients, but that's really by request for sort of specific, might be specific reasons due to anxiety around going to the hairdressers, that sort of thing. Or I cut female hair where they have short clipper work. And I also do, children's hair, so I do boys. Boys and girls. And I've been doing that, sort of officially really since, September, 2022. 

And it, actually coincided, that was sort of Lockdown. I've always wanted to be a hairdresser, so I've always been slightly obsessed with hair, and fashion, and stuff. And I got talked out of it, and went into teaching. For many, many years I was a teacher. And I worked in recruitment.

And then I thought, do you know what? Life's too short. So, I think it was a bit of a midlife crisis Helen, who knows? I decided to ditch the dye. And then I was like, I know I'll become a barber. I started doing my kids' hair, and thought, oh, I like this. I love cutting hair. I dunno, I doesn't never get bored of it.

Helen: I'm assuming that you have plenty of men with grey hair?

Emma: I do. My husband being one of them. Yes. They love their grey hair. And I always compliment them actually on that. Lots of different shades as well, like you see, you know, with women as well, so.

Helen: Do you ever find any of them have anxiety around being grey?

Emma: Do you know, it's interesting. Yeah, a few of them are maybe, sort of say, you know, sort of the midlife sort of dads. Maybe they've got kids, you know, sort of five to 10, that kind of thing. And they've started to notice. It tends to be the ones that started to notice, maybe they're receding a little bit, but also, they've started to notice the greys might be coming in. You know, on the sideburns, or maybe around the hairline.

And they sort of, it's interesting I remember one of them, you know, sort of saying to me, oh, I don't know. I don’t know I've got this grey coming in, and I don’t know whether I should go short. And I said, oh, how do you feel about it? And they're like, well, I don't really mind it. I just wonder what other people think.

So, it is interesting, isn't it? I think to me, I never really thought about it. I think maybe men have that kind of stigma as well about. How am I perceived? Am I perceived as being older, or I don't take pride in my appearance? 

I find that some of my clients who are in their maybe mid to late fifties, who are, you know, fully grey, they don't think anything of it. So maybe they've got over that point in their life and they just kind of, they like it, I guess, and people around them never sort of say anything, so.

Helen: You don't have any that are covering it up with colour?

Emma: No, I don't, no. Well, not that I'm aware of, I guess I'd noticed. You know, if I start spraying with water in the colour drip, no. I remember there was one chap, in fact it was my hairdresser that sort of said to me how grey I was, and said we could just kind of start transitioning. And I thought, oh, well. 

She had a client, he's not one of my clients, but he was going a little bit thin on top. He was also going grey. And he used to use a sort of powder, she was telling me to cover up the grey. And also, you know, I think the fact he was slightly thinning on top as well. But no, I haven't come across any of my clients that do that. It doesn't seem a huge issue for them.

Helen: No, they're probably more secure around silvering hair than a lot of women.

Emma: I'm not your traditional barber. As I say, I came to it in later life. And I think maybe the fact I've got grey hair, and I'm slightly older. They think, well, you know, she doesn't seem to care, so, you know, I dunno.

Helen: I think it's interesting what you're saying about the guy who was worried about what other people will think. 

Emma: Yeah.

Helen: Because I've spoken to a lot of women who that's kind of their main concern. And then people who have chosen go grey, they've said, well, the reality is we are all concentrating on our own appearance, and we take very little notice of other people most of the time.

Emma: Yes, I think that is true, isn't it? I think I spent quite a few years, you know, probably sort of post university years, and early work days worrying. You know, about if, I don't know whether someone would like me, or someone would like the way I dressed, or I don't know, like with your hair, with everything, really, the whole appearance. And I think, I don't think people are judging you the way you maybe perceived they are sometimes.

It says more about your own insecurities, I think. I think everybody has their own insecurities. I think certainly now, I dunno whether it's come about as a result of the Pandemic, but people seem. Well, my personal experience, I feel much more comfortable in my own skin and how I am, and I just try to be myself really. And I think that's the best thing to be really, isn't it, in life.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Emma: I can't pretend to be someone that has neat hair because it's not me. It's just how it is or however it is on a certain day. And that's how I am. So, I think you have to try and embrace all your quirks really.

Helen: Yeah, I always used to feel like I upset hairdressers, when they would happily blow drum my hair and it'd be beautifully neat,

Emma: Right.

Helen:  and I would have to shake it.

Emma: Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Helen: ‘Cause that's just not my hair.

Emma: No, no, no, no, no. Absolutely.

Helen: It's always a little bit more casual than that.

Emma: Yeah. It's rather ironic, I'm not really a fan of going to the hairdressers. I don't find it a great experience. I think maybe I just kind of have the same thing each time at the moment. But you know, they often say, well, should we put some products on it? And I don't really want products on it.

And I just have a wet cut, 'cause I don't like the way they dry it. I come out and it's just poofed sort of. So, I just ask for a wet cut, and they just rough dry it if they need to check, you know.

Helen: I think they would be embarrassed for me to leave the salon with wet hair, 'cause my head's quite long, so

Emma: Does it take a long time to dry?

Helen: No. And if I dry it at home, my hairdresser laughs at me, so, my hair drying technique is, I lie on the bed with my head off the bed, blow the air at it hanging down.

Emma: Oh, sort of backwards do you mean? And then.

Helen: Yeah, hanging down. And then I sit with it forwards and blow it when it's down forwards. And it takes about maybe 10 minutes tops.

Emma: Oh okay. What with a brush or just?

Helen: No, just with the dryer.

Emma: Oh, I see. Just, oh, that's interesting.

Helen: And everyone's like really?

Emma: Because if I diffuse my hair, which is very rare. But you know, if I needed to dry it in a hurry, I'd sort of get my diffuser and I sort of do it from side to side. And then I do the whole hang back thing ,and try and, you know, get some volume at the back, so.

Helen: I'm just trying to get the moisture out,

Emma: Yes,

Helen: not really worrying about the volume. It's just like, how can I do it quickly?

Emma: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Helen: Cool. So, I'm gonna ask you one last question.

Emma: Okay.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what hints and tips would you have for them?

Emma: I think it's such an individual thing. I think for me, I never had that kind of, you know, demarcation line when it was growing out. 'cause I'd sort of gone lighter. So, I think you've got to feel ready. I mean, that is my, literally, that is what I would say to somebody really in a nutshell.

You've got to feel ready, so you can think you want to go grey. And you can start to see the grey, and, you know say you've got really, I dunno, dark hair, and the roots are coming through. But if you are not sure, or if you are questioning it, you're probably not ready. 

So, I think the whole thinking process can take a while, and it's good to kind of lean into that. I probably thought it through, well a good year or so, before I actually decided that I was gonna just, you know, trust the process. So, yeah, I think you've absolutely, you've gotta feel ready. I think you can't be swayed by someone saying do it or don't do it. 

Hairdressers, you know, the hairdresser was a good source for me, because that's what started me thinking. So, I guess you could always ask advice if you know from your hairdresser. But again, I think it's a personal thing. So, you know, joining groups on Facebook, I said I did join a couple of groups about embracing grey, and I lurked in those for a while, and looked at different shades of grey.

I think you don't actually know until you start the journey. You don't know what shades are gonna come through. I think that's what's been most interesting for me. SO, the back of my crown was quite white, so I thought, oh, is it all gonna be white? But then as it started to come through, it was all these different shades of grey. So, I think until it starts, you don't know. 

But I think you'll know if you feel ready. And at the end of the day, if you don't like it, you can always go back. I think nobody's gonna judge you, really. And if they do, they're probably not your sort of people. I don’t, whether that's advice, or yeah.

Helen: No, I think that’s fair.

Emma: You've gotta feel comfortable with it, because I think it projects, doesn't it. If you're growing it out and you're thinking, oh, this is, it's gonna come across. So, you've gotta feel comfortable, in your own hair and your own skin.

Helen: Cool. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you.

Emma: Thank you, Helen. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I've really enjoyed it.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.