Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye. 

Today I'm joined by Julie Kneafsey, AKA, the Fiftyist on social media. She's a writer and content creator around topics of clean beauty, pro-ageing issues, healthy living after breast cancer, and of course silver hair. She's transitioned to silver in 2018, and it became the start of a whole new career leading to brand deals and collaborations online. And she has just released a brand-new book all about clean beauty. 

Hello, Julie. How are you?

Julie: Hi. I'm absolutely fine. Thank you for having me.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Julie: So, I've always had dark hair. I had chestnuty brown, long, straight, thick hair. And it's one of those kinds of hair that you can try and put a curl in. I remember my mom sitting there with some of those metal tongs, and trying to put some curls in my hair, and then within an hour it had just reasserted its power, and taken it back to straight again.

So very straight. And actually, that's very different now, I have to say. That's changed a lot since I've transitioned, but very straight, very thick chestnuty brown hair. That was my early days. The day's gone.

Helen: Did you colour it in your teens at all?

Julie: Yes, because my sister she's had several careers, but her first career was as a hairdresser. She trained as a hairdresser. And she was sort of my idol. She used to use the Harmony semi-permanents. Do you remember them? The Harmony hair colours that used to come in a little tube. And you could try things like burgundy or copper. 

None of them really took on my hair, 'cause it's fairly dark. But I remember trying the chestnut ones. And she tried one, I'd try one. She was very influential on me with that. And, so I was messing around with hair colour from around the age of 14 really.

Helen: Did you keep colouring from then?

Julie: I messed around with it, until I found my first grey hair. Which was at the age of 23. I mean, I might have had one, I didn't spot it. I just remember looking in the sunlight at one point in the mirror, and it just twanged out. And I was absolutely horrified. I remember being horrified in that moment.

And I laugh at myself now because just so nothing, but at that time, grey hair, well, it equalled old, didn't it? And I didn't have any reference point to think that it would be okay. Because obviously in those days nobody, unless you were a much older person, would walk around with grey hair. You had it dyed, and you kept up, and you didn't want to look like you'd let yourself go.

So, I remember feeling at that point, uh-oh, you know. Is this happening now? I'm getting old now. And so, I just started regularly semi-permanent dyeing. Semi permanently dyeing my hair from then on.

Helen: And how long did you do that for?

Julie: All in all, until I was 51. But it really kicked in properly when I was about 30. Because when I was 30, I'd just done the semi-permanent, and I was walking down the street with a friend. It was a male friend, which kind of made it worse really.  'cause I remember he looked across at me, and he said, oh, wow, I didn't realize you had so much grey hair.

But obviously some of it had been like, not taking. 'cause it starts to not take, doesn't it, with the semi-permanent? I was again, completely mortified. It was just a real horror. I actually remember wanting to get out of the sunlight, so that it wasn't so obvious. 

I look at myself now, I think ye were so conditioned to not have any showing of grey hair at all. Nothing could show. So that was it, from then on, I was into the permanents, you know. And I had those for a long time. 

Helen: What was the trigger for deciding to stop using them?

Julie: Over the years, I mean, even since I was in my teens, I had an itchy head when I used hair dye. Didn't stop me. 'cause obviously had kind of what I call teenage invincibility complex. And I just was like, I'm doing this. It doesn't matter if it hurts, you know, I'm gonna carry on, even if it itches, or it's making my head flake, or anything like that.

So, all the way through my time of dyeing, I had the issue of it causing me a problem. It would sting, it would nip, it would itch, it would make my head flake a little bit, and then it would clear up. And obviously that went on for years, but I couldn't not have my hair dyed. 

So, I went through a whole different journey of, getting to the point where I couldn't continue to have the dye painted on my head. So, I tried henna. Okay, I'll go natural, you know, oh, I'll take it in a different direction. And henna was a bit of a nightmare, really. I mean, very, very healthy for your hair. And I had very shiny hair, but it was completely one colour. The issue was for me is that, have you ever tried henna?

Helen: No, because I've always been fairly fair, so I was worried it would be bright orange.

Julie: Yeah. Well, where it was grey, it would go a little bit orange. And then if I did the darker henna, 'cause at that point as well, there were only a couple of shades that I could get hold of. But if I went darker it kind of went a whole, I looked like I had a kind of dark helmet on.

I've got some photos, and I look back and think, oh no, what were you doing? It didn't suit you at all. And also, I think by that time my skin tone was changing, because you start to lose pigment in your skin as you age, don't you? So darker colours start to look a bit wrong. 

Helen: Yes.

Julie: And they started to look wrong for me. So, what I decided to do is, it took me a long time, because I had to grow the henna out then. So, I had a really big mix of sort of dark, and some greys. I had a little bit of transition then I suppose, but I didn't want that. Because you can't immediately go back to dyeing straight after henna. 'cause it leaves these sort of deposits on your hair, and you can't just go straight back in and dye over the top of it.

So, I let that grow out, and then I went straight back into dyeing. But I did it where the hairdresser would do a whole head of highlights, and it didn't touch my scalp. So that the dye wouldn't touch my scalp. And that worked for a little while. 

And then for some reason, I kind of think it was partly the smell of it as well that was causing me the problem. I started to get really bad headaches, and started to feel really poorly the next day. I could just kick myself for wanting to dye my hair so badly to not look old, that I put myself through an awful time. Do you know what I mean? It was just stupid. 

But anyway, I continued with that. And in the end, I got to around 50, and I'd had enough. I started to feel really poorly every time. I would dread it. She would rinse the dye off the highlights, and I would just have it left wet. I wouldn't even get her blow dry. 'cause I would go home, and I would wash it again, to try and get anything that was left on my scalp off, so I wouldn't feel poorly the next day. 

And in the end, I just started feeling almost like, I can only describe it as feeling poisoned. I think my system had become very sensitized to it. And I would have nausea, I would have very bad headaches. I would be feeling very tired, and drained the next day. Almost just like I said, as if I'd been poisoned. 

I remember getting to 51. It was 2018, and I just thought, I cannot continue. At some point, I'm gonna have a serious allergic reaction, and just end up in hospital, or something. 

So, I looked around, and it was kind of a key moment, really. I looked around, and I thought how can I do this? What can I do? Because I'm gonna have to go grey, and I just couldn't figure out how I was gonna do it, and feel all right with myself, and feel okay. 

So, I looked around, and thought is anybody doing this? Who can I look at? So, I found online a model called Cindy Joseph. She created the Boom Cosmetic brand. And I think she possibly had passed by that time, even or was around the time, 'cause she's not with us anymore. But I remember thinking, wow, she is so beautiful, and if she can look like that with grey hair. And she was so bold about it, she just didn't care. Then perhaps there's, you know, some room in there for me to do it. 

And I looked at another model called Caroline Labouchere, who just kind of started out. Who's incredibly beautiful with long grey hair. And I looked around and found some Silver sisters online. I looked to find this hashtag of women who, it was very much in its infancy, really. There weren't that many people doing it at that point.

But there were some women there who were partway through a transition, with bits of, you know, their grow out showing. And I thought, do you know what? If they can do it, I can do it. And I just, I did my last dye in August, 2018 before I went on holiday. So, I had nice hair for going on holiday. 

Helen: You're not the first person to say that to me.

Julie: Yeah, I did my last one. I've got photos of me, my last one, and then after that I came back, and I've never dyed it since. 

Helen: Did you just go cold turkey and have the demarcation line?

Julie: Yes, I did. But because I had gone blonde, that's something I didn't say earlier. Because my hair was so dark, once that line started growing through, it was more obvious. So, when I couldn't have the dye all over my head, I knew I would have some grow out showing, so what I did was I had it dyed lighter. So, I had my whole head with slightly brassy blonde highlights, which in retrospect doesn't go with my skin at all.

I have slightly sallow skin, and I had this kind of what I can only describe as slightly processed cheese, kind of colour hair. I don't think it really was my colour, but that was the colour I grew out. So it wasn't that sort of very dark brown against the silver kind of colour demarcation. But it was a line I grew out. It took me over two years to grow it.

Helen: How did you feel about it during that grow out phase?

Julie: Helen, it changed my life. It absolutely changed my life, because during that time I learned to let go of defining myself by my hair colour. Defining my youthfulness by my hair colour. Because that's what I'd been doing. I'd been like, I can't let go of this. 'cause if I do this, I'm gonna look another way. And I had to learn to look that other way. 

I'm not saying look old, because I don't believe it makes you look old. I just think it's another hair colour now. Then I had to let go, and that was probably the hardest thing. Anyone can transition to silver any way they want, but I think the most valuable, and the most life affirming, and interesting way to do it is to grow the damn thing out. And learn inch by inch, to let go of what it was that you were holding so tightly onto. 

And that transformed how I look at myself, how I view ageing, and led me onto a completely different career path. It just absolutely changed my life.

Helen: Did you have good days and bad days during the grow out?

Julie: Yes, absolutely. Days where I would catch sight of myself in a mirror, or in a shop window and go, Ooh, who's that? Who is that in there? I would feel conscious. I think I started wearing caps more, because you just trying to cover it up. I'm not very good with hair scarves and things. I know other women that have been terrific with tying their hair up. I'm not very good at that.

But I remember, I think for a while I tried to use some of the root powder just to kind of hide it, doesn't work. I think for a while people just thought, I hadn't bothered to dye it.

And then all of a sudden when you get a few inches down, someone's gonna say to you, Ooh. You going for a new colour? or what you doing with your hair? women friends at work, and that. And I would just say, no, I'm growing it out. Had to be really bold. I had to find a place where I was gonna say, no, no, and this is intentional, and I'm actually doing it. And I think that's the hard part. 

I didn't get any poor attitudes. I've read some really sad stories about women that say I started doing it. 'cause of my online links with people, they would message and say, I started doing it and my husband hated it. So, I've dyed it again. Or, you know, my husband, my family all had a go at me and said, I looked old. So, I just can't do it. 

And I feel for them because I didn't have that. I like you I think you were saying, you had had a positive experience, and I did as well. So, although people might have looked at me a bit funny, and questioned it, and probably thought it's not for me. I didn't get a hard time. 

The other brilliant part of it is I was watching other women do it online. And that community was so supportive, and helpful that it gets you through. You're seeing other women and you're thinking, well they can do it. I can do it. They can do it. I can do it. And it just bolsters you every time.

So, I would say to anybody who's thinking of doing it that might be listening to your podcast is to find a community of women. Do a Facebook group, go online. Start talking to the Silver Sisters, and they will answer you and they will say, go on, go for it. Do it. It's fine. I'm the other end, and this is how it feels.

Helen: Yeah, I think some of the Facebook group, they're very good at talking people down from the parapet, when they're on the verge of dyeing it again. And they'll be like, no don't. But they are very, very supportive, and very helpful. 

So, you're saying your attitude towards ageing has completely changed as a result of the grow out. What are you thinking about now as opposed to what you were thinking about then?

Julie: I've written a few blogs and things about this. I'm pro age. So, I think women should be allowed to age as they want to age. I'm not against people who want to dye their hair. Although I have issues with the clean beauty side of that, which I can talk about in a minute. I'm not against people who want to use Botox, and fillers, and all that kind stuff, but it's just not for me. 

I feel like my attitude to ageing is, I've had breast cancer twice, Helen I'm just happy to be here. Do you know what I mean? I don't need to look a certain way. I just need to look like me. I have wrinkles. I have skin texture. I have grey hair. I have wobbly bits. And it's okay. 

And I feel like it's my life's work as a woman, it’s a bit like going through the hair transition, it's about learning to be you. That's my life's work. And it's happening to me all the time. Learning to accept how you look is okay.

Helen: Yeah.

Julie: That's how it's changed my view. So, everyone to their own, but for me it's pro-ageing. And part of that is also highlighting where there are ageist attitudes, and I love that Ageism Is Never In Style campaign, with Jacynth. I think she's amazing. As a young woman already sort of cheerleading, way ahead of her older years, for women so that things get better for women, and that ageism isn't so rife.

And that people actually start to think, actually look at those people, which is highlighting, you know, people that are doing stuff. I hope that I'm highlighting that you can be something even when you are in your older years. You don't have to just kind of feel like you have to fade into invisibility. 

It's about being pro-age and realizing that this third of my life, the last third of my life effectively, that I'm just about to enter is going to be just as productive as the other two thirds of my life.

Helen: Yeah, you sound similar to me in that I'm much less concentrated on the aesthetics, and much more concentrated on how am I going to age actively, and happily.

Julie: Yes, exactly. And for me it's been an amazing journey, I dunno about for you. But to realize the power that I still have. Staying fit, and staying active, and staying healthy is the most important thing. Wellness, and being healthy is so important to me going forward, because I've had two moments where I've actually questioned my mortality, you know.

I’m very grateful. And I want to make the most of the years ahead. It almost feels like the grey hair part was just a blip now. It's just my life. This is my hair. What's the issue? You know?

It's like Pamela Anderson. I love the fact that she's gone make-up free. I just think that she's been so bold in doing that move. It's not brave. It's bold. It's putting it out there, it's stepping forward and saying, actually, this is who I am. From someone who just spent her whole life being utterly glamorous in the expected way. 

Helen: Yeah.

Julie: Now she's being utterly glamorous in a completely different way.

Helen: A chicken and the egg type question now, which came first the cancer, or the interesting clean beauty?

Julie: What a great question. I think in my later years I've become more interested in cleaning up what I eat, and things like that. Being active, and looking after myself.

When I got the second breast cancer, I had genetic testing to see if it was a genetic thing. 'cause there's tons of breast cancer in my family. And none of the genetic testing came back as a positive. So, I know that I don't necessarily have an inherited gene for it. You know, only five to 10% of cancers are actually from your parents. 

So, I knew that it was a different reason. And both of my cancers are hormone sensitive. And so, I started to look into well, what could have happened here? What could have affected me? What can I do differently to try and make sure that I don't leave myself open to having another.

And once I started looking at hair dye particularly, that was the first thing I looked at. I became horrified because in hair dye are some truly horrible, horrible industrial chemicals, that really we should not be putting on our bodies. So that was the first thing set me off on this journey.

Once you go down one rabbit hole, it leads you to another. And it started to show up in other things that we use. You know, the make-up that we put on our bodies every day. The personal care items. The cleaning stuff in your home. What's in your furnishings. What's in candles, and air fresheners. And, you know, all of those things started to, it was like a switch had been turned on. 

And I was like, ah, okay. So, I am literally bombarding myself with chemicals every day, and I need to reduce that. I need to find out which are the worst ones. So that started my journey, which I know you said at the beginning, but I've just gotta shoehorn it in, is I've got my book that's just come out, which is called Clean. It's an e-book and it's linked everywhere on my socials and websites on the Fiftyist. But I'm so proud of it. 

I do talk about hair dye there. It's got a chapter of, a small chapter of its own. And I think I say in the book, if there's one thing that I recommend people give up to clean up their acts, hair dye would be it. I think it's one of the worst things. I don't wanna scare anybody. If you're listening to this, you are already thinking of doing it. So, it probably won't be a surprise, but it is not nice stuff. 

And I think that, I wrote about that in the book, so you know, if you're interested in clean beauty, have a look at that. But you know, I do talk a little bit about my hair dye journey in there as well. 

I think it's so important for everybody that they look after themselves, especially in the later years. I dunno about you, but I think back to myself of all the processed foods I've eaten, you know, all the stuff I've put on my body over the years. Which I had no clue about them being petrochemicals, and potential hormone disruptors. And all the fragrances, and the you know things I've had running in my house, and the plugins. None of us knew about this stuff.

It's like part of my passion, and I feel like my life's mission, if you like, is just to tell people, stop using this stuff. it absolutely comes from a place of complete love, and wanting to share, because I don't want people hurt. And if people don't know, which they don't. People dunno about this stuff, Helen. They don't know what they're putting on their bodies, and so I feel like it's my mission to tell them.

Helen: I'm actually not surprised 'cause my first job was as a chemist in a textile factory.

Julie: Oh.

Helen: Playing with dyes.

Julie: Wow.

Helen: And every few weeks, a different one was banned as a carcinogen. 

Julie: Wow.

Helen: And the life expectancy of a colour chemist was 10 years shorter than the average, because of it. So, I didn't do that for very long, but it's like, yeah. okay.

Julie: Goodness me. I think I need to have a longer conversation with you about that. That is incredible. It's like you hear these things coming out. I don't if you wanna put this in the podcast or not, but the things coming out from, you know, the class action suits where the companies have poured chemicals into things for years.

And you only find out that literally people were dying of cancer in the whole town, and it's because of this chemical that they knew was bad, and they still put it in the water, you know, let it go into the water anyway. That kind of stuff. I feel like things will come out. And you just saying that, that's absolutely incredible.

Helen: It's different times. It was a long time ago, my first job.

Julie: Yes. But in the 1950s there was a study on hair dye that said it's a probable carcinogen. In the 1950s, you know, so this has been going on a long time, and it is an issue. 

So, to ditch the dye, going back to what this podcast is about, I think Happier Grey could not be a better title, because not only if you do it, do you save time, money, you know, the stress of actually having to dye your hair all the time. But you make yourself healthier. So, you're gonna be happier because you're not putting those toxins on your body.

Helen: One last question. 

Julie: Okay.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what hints and tips would you have for them?

Julie: Oh, my goodness, hints and tips. Going back on what we've just said. If they can do it, grow it out. Because of what I've said before about the journey. If you can't bear it, obviously, you know, have it blended, and highlighted, and have the help.

Do it. But when you do it, while you are doing it, know that you are doing something really special. And dig deep, and find the confidence, because it's in there. And let that out, and be bold, and be strong, and not care what anybody thinks. Because this part of your life is about owning yourself, and being who you really are. And if you are transitioning into silver, you are coming into that, and it's a special thing.

So just dig deep, and find that confidence, that everybody who does the transition finds it, and it's in there.

Helen: Well, thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you.

Julie: I feel like I kind of went full on passionate there, but it is truly how I feel about it. And it is the thing that has literally changed my life. So, I truly hope that other women will just grasp that and go for it. It is a wonderful, wonderful journey to go on. Thank you for having me.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.