Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Sara Barnes. She's the 63-year-old Lakeland author of The Cold Fix and the Winter of Our Lives. After nearly losing her life twice last year, she's about to take the bold step of launching her own publishing imprint Crooked Lake. And her first novel is out later this month: Where the Beck Flows. Life is now, and I have stories that demand to be told, she says. 

Hello, Sara, how are you?

Sara: Hello, Helen. I'm good, thank you.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Sara: I think, I thought it was just very blonde. Because, I was very blonde when I was a child. So, it probably will have been when I was about 50, 52, maybe, so about 10 years ago.

Helen: So, relatively late then?

Sara: Yeah.

Helen: And how did you feel when you found it?

Sara: Well, I thought it was just very blonde, so I wasn't too worried, 'cause I thought I'd like to go really blonde again. But then I thought because it was all kind of up here and I thought it just looked, um, if it had been, you know, like a nice thing where it is now down the front, I would've felt differently.

But because it was more on the top of my head, and it showed if the sun was on the top of my head, and then I immediately thought it is my roots. I have to do my roots.

Helen: And were you colouring your hair already at that stage?

Sara: I was highlighting it. I was having blonde highlights put through, and maybe some darker ones as well, some lowlights. So, I just had, similar to what it is now, just multicoloured really.

Helen: So, you worried about the roots and immediately thought you needed to get it dyed?

Sara: Yes.

Helen: Just the same colour as it was before?

Sara: Yeah, I didn't want to go a dramatic colour. I've never been dark brown, or red. I've had Auburny tones put in, but they don't really work. They don't last. 

So, it was more about how do I break up that line that seems to be appearing. So I was more about highlights, I think, rather than an overall colour. So, highlights and lowlights. Just to break up the line rather than the whole head.

Helen: And were you having them when you were younger as well?

Sara: I think I had my first highlights when I was about 46. 

Helen: Okay.

Sara: So, I left it a long time. I didn't really do much with my hair. I wasn't really interested. I was quite happy with the colour I had. I wasn't bothered.

Helen: So, was it like a dark blonde colour?

Sara: Yeah. Dark blonde. Some people might say mousey. I prefer to say dark blonde.

Helen: It sounds similar to me. My hair was very white blonde until I was about 10. And still pretty blonde through my teens until my early twenties, and then it just gradually got darker and darker until the first grey started coming through. 

So yeah, sounds pretty similar. And to be fair, it's a pretty similar colour now, although the pattern of the white is quite different to mine, I think.

So, because you had highlights and low lights, I'm guessing that you didn't have a really strong demarcation line at the point that you decided to grow it out?

Sara: It did look quite strong I thought, to me. Because as soon as you stop having highlights, and you go beyond, I don't know, a six-week point, you really notice it. And of course, every time I looked at myself, I saw it, and I just thought it's getting worse, and worse. 

But we were just about to enter Lockdown, and I just didn't want to experiment on my own at home. I just thought, just embrace it. I might as well. I'm not gonna be going anywhere. I actually don't really care. I would really like to just let it grow, and see what happens. 

And I think part of that was connected to the swimming that I do. And I took a lot of underwater pictures, and I particularly liked the ones where I just had pictures of my hair swirling around in the water. And I just thought, how pretty is that? 'cause it really looked golden. And I thought, you know, it's really nice, and you can't see any roots there. 

Wouldn't it be really nice to have really mermaidy hair? I thought. So, I thought this is the perfect opportunity, 'cause I'm still going to go swimming. I'm still gonna take photos. I want to really just have mermaids’ hair.

Helen: Cool. I love that. So, it sounds like you had good days and bad days during the grow out then?

Sara: Yeah, I think, you not only have this line coming through up here, but you also then have like this line round here as it gets longer.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: And then the ends just when you hold them up to the top, they're completely different colour. I almost felt shame that I was letting myself go, but I couldn't put a finger on why I felt shame.

It's just, you know, at my age, 58 59, during Lockdown. I kept thinking of what my Mum would say. She lived down in Oxford, so she didn't really see us for three months 'cause she stayed in her flat, so she couldn't see that I was looking at any different really. 

And she always thought that when you got to a certain age, you shouldn't have long hair anyway. So not only did I have long hair, but I also wasn't cutting it, or looking after it, I suppose, in her book.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: So, I felt quite ashamed, and I felt quite rebellious at the same time, both.

Helen: Okay. So, your Mum, how long did she dye her hair for?

Sara: She went through a phase, must have been in the Seventies, where she dyed it, and it was almost a orangey gold colour.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: And looking back at the pictures, it was hideous. And she'll admit that it really was hideous, because she was more of a mousey colour, and she had very curly hair. Which she never let grow long.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: It would've been beautiful. But she kept it nicely cut. And she went salt and peppery. She'd only dyed it probably in the Seventies, and then she just let it grow. Just be natural.

Helen: Okay, a question then that's kind of interesting me. Was her actual reaction the same as the shame that you felt that she would feel?

Sara: She only briefly saw us again after Lockdown, because she was diagnosed as we opened up. She was diagnosed with blood cancer, and she died five weeks later. So, we managed to see her briefly for maybe a week. And then another week. And then that was it. 

She didn't comment. She just, I think she'd put that to bed. She was more concerned about having some nice times with each of us.

Helen: Yep. Yep

Sara: I did have to pluck her chin, and cut her nails. But no. I think she maybe said something like, are you going to get your hair cut? I think she probably did say that at least once, and I just went, no. I dunno.

Helen: But it was more about the cut than the colour?

Sara: The length, yes. 

Helen: Yes.

Sara: She probably thought if you have it cut short, then all that rat's tails, she would've called it all the rat's tails won't be there. Have it short and then it will be, you know. 

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: Nice and neat. And no rat's tails, no brassiness.

Helen: So, it kind of sounds like it was all in your head, what you were thinking.

Sara: Think so.

Helen: Rather than in her head?

Sara: Yeah.

Helen: What sort of reaction did you have from other people during the grow out?

Sara: My daughter, she still cuts my hair now, and she is quite good at it. We've got some hairdressing scissors, and she combs it, and cuts. And she kind of says, I really want to take off about that much. And I said, no, no, no, no. 

Helen: That’s about six inches, eight?

Sara: Yeah. She said if I do that, it will just be once, and then it will all be the same colour. It'll be so much nicer. So, what are we now? 26. So that's six years that she's been cutting it, maybe an inch and a half every six months.

Helen: Okay.

Sara: You know, it's really difficult. I probably could go to a hairdresser’s, and say, cut off everything you need to, so that any bits of hair that ever saw highlighting would be cut off.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: But I haven't got to that point of courage yet.

Helen: How long is your hair?

Sara: It's not that long.

Helen: It's kind of halfway down your back then, yeah?

Sara: Halfway. Yeah. if I blow dry it, which I very rarely do, and sort of get it straight, it looks a lot longer.

Helen: Yeah,

Sara: But I don't do that very often.

Helen: And you haven't been tempted to have it trimmed shorter during the grow out?

Sara: I've been tempted to have it cut sorted to here on my shoulders. 

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: Because I know how it would feel. I know it would make me go, woo. You know, it just does, doesn't it when you have hair like that, there's that swishy sort of feel. And I'd really like that in many ways. And then probably three days later I'd feel sad, 'cause I'd look at pictures of like, when I can put it in a nice long plait down here. 

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: And, if you could do both, it would be really nice.

Helen: You've got way more patience than me. I ended up having it to a jaw length Bob, with layers in, just to get rid of the colour. But I had a solid colour. I didn't have highlights. I just reached the point of going I need it done now. I don't want to see it.

Sara: Yeah.

Helen: And then I grew it from there. So, my hair's a little bit shorter than yours, but not much.

Sara: And are you glad you did that? Are you glad you took that decision?

Helen: I think all the time that I was growing it out, because I'd always worked in sort of professional environment, and had to be fairly smart. I was a company director. I always felt quite unkempt. The whole way through the grow out. 

And I was very conscious of the line, even though it was blonde and it's still, like a dark blonde with white in it now. So, in some ways it looks highlighted more than anything. But I think you’re so conscious of roots being a bad thing, and that while you've got that contrast in colour, you've always got that reminder. 

Sara: Yeah.

Helen: So, I just needed it gone. Ran out of patience, as I said. Probably went shorter than I would want it to be, but it was just, I felt better once I had the colour gone.

Sara: And how long ago was that?

Helen: Oh, that was just after Lockdown. So, I grew it out in Lockdown, same as you. 

I'd been thinking about it for a couple of years before then, but my hairdresser and my Husband weren't very keen on the idea. And kind of persuaded me that it would be not a good thing to do. And then Lockdown happened, and I couldn't get to the hairdressers. And I was like, well, I've been in this head space a while, I'm doing it.

And I'm really glad that I did, 'cause it's just so much easier to look after. 

Sara: Exactly.

Helen: It's in massively better condition. And I just don't have that low-grade stress. The whole time of, you'd have it dyed,

Sara: Yeah.

Helen: and then within a couple of weeks you'd start to see that little bit of white peeping through. And my white is very much at the front, and underneath. So, to me, it was very, very visible, very quickly. 

Sara: Yeah.

Helen: Yeah, so I just, I needed to be through the phase. And I know people are different in terms of how, and some people are even like, I'll have the colour stripped just to be done. So, it wasn't quite that impatient.

Sara: No.

Helen: But I, yeah, I couldn't have left it longer. I just needed to, get rid of it. Apart from anything else, because the condition, it was so dry on the ends, it had split ends, and just didn't like it.

Sara: Yeah, mine doesn't have split ends. Probably 'cause I don't blow dry it very often. I don't put heat on it. But I know what you mean by unkempt. And if I was in a more professional role, because I work for myself, and have done for 30 years, the most professional I get is doing things like this. And I actually put some lipstick on, and I brushed my hair, and changed my shirt. 

Author events, author talks, I have got an author outfit. And I then think, look at my hair and I think, hm, oh wow, you know. I'm sure I'd look more with it, more tied together, if I had it chopped so that it just kind of was a style.

And I wonder if that would have an impact on the people listening to me. I wonder if I'd sell more books, or get invited onto, you know, more things. But I don't think so, because I think I would be trying to be somebody I'm not.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: And somebody I don't actually need to be. It is a conundrum that I think about when I'm trying to be more professional, and not off in the wilds of Cumbia walking or wild swimming, not really caring. And as I get older, I want to care, and I want to try and be able to brush up well, and look put together. Not sure I'll ever achieve it, but.

Helen: Why do you think that is?

Sara: I don't think it's in my nature. I don't think.

Helen: Why would you want to do it if it's not in your nature?

Sara: Why I would I want to? Because I love it, when I put nice clothes on, and make-up and you know, I'm going out, out. Or like that photo I sent you, I had blow-dried my hair, and it looked lovely. I'd had the dress on, and borrowed my daughter's hat, and I felt really great. I felt me, but a more upmarket in me. 

Helen: I'm gonna ask you a different question now. How do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Sara: I think I'm doing okay given I have osteoarthritis in both my knees, so bones rubbing on bones in both my knees. And I had heart surgery this time last year, and it didn't go well. But I'm okay now, my heart's fixed. And then in August I very nearly died, again, because I reacted to an antibiotic, they gave me.

I was having a knee replacement, and he was putting iodine on my knee, and waggling my leg. I could see it 'cause I was still conscious. I'd just had a spinal. And then suddenly I just went, and there was no blood pressure, and my heart rate was 20. So, apart from that. I think I'm doing quite well emotionally and mentally. I love life.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: And those two experiences probably kind of, gave me a shove to say, look, life is not guaranteed. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. You know, life is now, and you really have to just try and do all those things that you say you want to do, give it a go. So, I think I don't feel old, and even given my knees, and they're always painful. I don't, that’s not aging me. I'm not allowing it to.

What ages me is hearing that my nephew is just about to go to secondary school, and things like that. And I think, oh my goodness, you know, I wonder what he thinks of his 60, nearly 64-year-old aunt going off, I don't know, posting pictures on Instagram in my swimsuit.

You know, it's probably like, what do they think of me, rather than the other way around. Because actually I don't really care, as long as I'm not upsetting anybody, or hurting anybody. I am enjoying my life, and I intend to enjoy as much of it as I can. So, I think given the things that happen, I'm doing pretty well, I think. Touch wood, I feel the need to touch some wood. I can't see any. It's all, yeah, all IKEA desk.

Helen: So what things are you doing to keep healthy?

Sara: Eating well, eating healthily. Trying to get outdoors every day, and have a walk, go for a swim. Challenging myself to different things, not being limited by my physical limitations, or that feeling of is it worth it? Can I really be bothered? I then kind of go, right, Barnes, come on. Yes, it is worth it. So, I guess I challenge myself to do stuff, and just keep doing stuff.

And allowing myself to rest. I think that's come in far more in recent months is saying, actually I am tired. I am just going to have a really quiet, nice day today. I'm not gonna go try and drive off there and do this. I'm just going to enjoy doing my editing work. You know, tidy the house a bit. Don't have to do much. So, I give myself permission to rest now, and I think that's really important.

And I give myself permission to say no to doing things. Even if it might mean, oh, it's a great opportunity as an author, you might get more notice or whatever. I think, actually, I don't want to drive down to Brighton. It's too far for me. I don't want to go. Sorry. You know, and I don't mind doing that now, 'cause I know how precious life is, and that keeps me healthy.

Helen: You love cold water swimming, don't you? How did you get into that?

Sara: I got into that because I needed to get back into the outdoors. In 2017, I had a very serious operation on both my legs to try and sort out the knees, and it didn't really work. I couldn't cycle or run anymore. 

I needed to be outdoors, 'cause I love being outdoors. My kids got fed up with me whinging and moaning, and they took me down to the lake, and said, right in you get. So, I hobbled in on my crutches. It was just beautiful. 'cause the cold, it was 10 degrees, the cold water took the physical pain away. I was floating, and I just was looking around me at the mountains, and thinking, this is it. I'm back. I am back outdoors. I can have a physical life again. 

And so, I just carried on doing it, and then met more people doing it. Grew a community. And that's really special about it, the people you meet, hearing their stories. And it just grew from there. And it's kind of a non-negotiable now in my life.

Helen: How often do you do it?

Sara: I don’t it every day, but I must admit I haven't been in the water since Saturday now, which is a terrible admission. But I've been so busy, with other things. And so, I've prioritized, getting those other things done. 

And I've looked out the window, and I thought, I really don't want to go sitting cold water. And I've got a tub in the back garden and a little sauna, so I'd be fine. But I've just thought, no, I don't have to. And I know I'm okay if I don't. 

Whereas I'm beginning to feel that, I think tomorrow I really want to, I think it's 'cause the sun came out today. And I think tomorrow I'm gonna give myself permission to go out, and walk to one of my favourite little river pools and waterfalls, and just really enjoy it. There's no point doing it just because you feel you have to. I want to be able to enjoy it.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah. It is not an obligation. It's something that brings you joy.

Sara: Yeah, exactly. I think that's what growing older is about, isn't it? Ageing doing things because you enjoy them?

Helen: Yeah, certainly with fitness, finding the things that you love. And doing those. Yeah.

Okay. I'm gonna ask you one last question. 

Sara: Okay.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about ditching the dye and growing my grey out, what hints and tips would you have for them?

Sara: Buy lots of hats. Head scarfs. Take lots of photos of yourself, so you can actually see what you look like, 'cause it might not be as bad as you think it looks like. Work out different hairstyles. Have different things that you can put in your hair like scrunchies so that you can, I don't know, so you draw attention to the scrunchie rather than

Helen: Yeah,

Sara: what your hair’s looking like. Just start it as soon as possible. Just do it.

Helen: And like both of us, you'll have good days and bad days.

Sara: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And don't be afraid to say, no, I can't do this. And then you can always try again another time. Don't be too hard on yourself, I think is the main thing. It's just hair.

Helen: Yeah.

Sara: But it is the money as well, the money side of it. It's a lot cheaper not to dye your hair.

Helen: This is true. I only get my hair cut three or four times a year now, and I used to be in every four weeks getting it coloured and cut.

Sara: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Helen: Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. 

Sara: Okay.

Helen: It's been fascinating chatting to you. 

Sara: Thank you.

Helen: Enjoy the rest of your day.

Sara: Thanks very much. Bye. Bye.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.