Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Catherine Chapman. She's worked as an executive assistant for over 20 years. She's originally from the North East of England, but spent the last 15 years in New Zealand. Now she runs her own reiki and massage business based in County Durham. Focusing on helping people to relax, take some time out for themselves, without guilt or judgment.

Good morning, Catherine. How are you?

Catherine: Good morning, Helen. I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for having me on.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Catherine: Yes, I was about 25, and I'm 46 now. So, I remember I was in my hairdressers at the time, my hairdresser's a really good friend of mine, so she's been doing my hair for a very long time. And moving my hair around a little bit, she was like, oh, I think we found your first grey hair.

You know, at the time it was like, oh my goodness. Yeah, so about 25, and I started dyeing my hair then, really. It wasn't just one hair like, there was a few, and there weren't many. But there seemed to be this thing when we were younger that most of us just dyed our hair. You know, even if you didn't need to, I'd put like a dark purple colour, or something on.

Helen: Had you experimented with hair colour in your teens, and stuff, before that then?

Catherine: Not so much in my teens, 'cause my hair is naturally really dark. Like a lot of people would've said that my hair was black, but it wasn't jet black, it was just really dark brown. So didn't really do hair chalks, or hair paints, or anything like that. 

But I remember when I did start colouring it, I would go for like the deeper mahoganies, or the burgundies just to kind of give it that. You know when the sun hits it, and it gives you that red tint, and you realize it's probably too red. So, I did that again, early twenties, but not so much when I was younger. No.

Helen: Were you doing it at home, or did you go to hairdressers?

Catherine: The first few times, I did it in my hairdressers, 'cause my friend was doing my hair for me. But then, when you're touching up your greys as such, you know, we all know that your growth starts coming through between four to six weeks. So, I found that having it done at the hairdressers all the time was just a bit too expensive.

Especially when you could pay, gosh, I couldn't even imagine how much I was paying. But for a box of hair dye from one of the shops, you know, it was a lot cheaper than having it done at the hairdressers. So, a couple of times I'd have it done at the hairdressers, but more often than not, and as I progressed kind of through my ages, I just bought a box of it, it was cheaper. 

And I wouldn't say it was easy to do, it's always nicer when someone else is doing your hair for you. I hated putting the whole gloves on, and mixing everything, and you know, making sure you've got it scrunched in everywhere to cover the grey. But just doing it every six weeks or so, it was easy to do it from home than getting booked into the hairdressers. And of course, less expensive.

Helen: And did you always stick to the very dark colours?

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah, I think when you've got really naturally dark hair, there's not really much to play with unless you want to put, you know, bleaches, and peroxides, and that type of thing on. And I never really wanted to do that. 

I think I just found that, my friends that did dye their hair blonde, they'd have lots of problems with the hair breaking, or you know, it was just high maintenance, and very costly.

So, no, I always stuck to the darker colours. And if I fancied something different, it would be like a cosmic blue, which was like a black with a tint of blue, or that mahogany colour. Yeah. 

Helen: What was the trigger for deciding to stop dyeing it?

Catherine: There was a few triggers. I mean, I've been thinking about it for a while. I've lived in New Zealand for 15 years, and I don't know if it's just the mindset that I kind of had when I lived in the UK before then, and then when I went over to New Zealand. But I felt like there was less judgment in New Zealand.

And I don't know if that's because I knew less people, or whether it is just a very much more relaxed way of life, and it just doesn't feel as, yeah, it doesn't feel like you need to keep up to society's expectations, if that makes sense. 

So, yeah, I think it was in 2019, because I'd been having a couple of like health niggles kind of with my stomach and digestion. I'd had IBS for years. And just learned how to control it. But some pains just got a little bit too much. 

So I went to the doctors, and ended up on this journey of finding a couple of issues on my liver. It took a long time to kind of diagnose what they were, very rare things. And, you know, everything was fine, but it still resulted in me needing to have surgery. 

But anyway, going through that whole process, I was like, right, what's caused these things to happen on my liver. And I started looking into liver health, and oh my gosh, what a world of just information. 

I found, you might have heard of him, the Medical Medium, Anthony Williams. He's fantastic actually. He’s got a few specialty books. He goes very deep into the kind of, the medical side of things, but also like the spiritua,l and the nutrition side of things. 

And basically, I learnt through reading his books, and doing some other research, that so many things are bad for our liver, that we think would be okay, like even foods, you know, cosmetics, that type of thing.

But I remember reading a section that said hair dye is one of the worst things you can do for your liver. Your liver's got like three layers to it, and hair dye goes through all of it. It's very, very difficult for your liver to detox hair dye. So, that was just almost like an instant smack in the face. And I was like, right, well, that's not happening anymore. 

Which I was fine with, you know, I've kind of felt quite comfortable with, because I think at the time I didn't realize how many grey hairs I had, until I decided to stop dyeing it. And then, you know, they all kind of came through. So that was in November, 2019, so like six years ago.

Helen: You've got quite long hair. How did you do your grow out?

Catherine: I just left it, I just let nature take its course, and I embraced every difficult stage, every time I looked in the mirror and I was like, oh God, this looks terrible. Because mine's like, around my T-zone, so it's like around the front here, and this section here kind of in my fringe. 

I think, 'cause I've got that natural kind of quiff in it as well, it was just watching it grow even millimetres, or centimetres. 'cause of course you've just got this little white block that grows, and it looks odd for a while.

I think when your hair's a bit shorter, you know, going grey could probably happen quicker because of the length of your hair. But like you say, mine's down past my boobs. So, I just embraced it, and thought, you know what, if I'm all in, I'm all in. I've just gotta do this. I just went with it, and thought, I've made the decision to stop dyeing it, so let's just go with it.

But it probably took maybe the best part of a year to a year and a half, for it to grow down to the lengths. And a few people suggested, you know, why don't you get it cut, and then it'll grow quicker. But I didn't want to, I like my long hair.

Helen: You have to do what you're comfortable with. So, did you have quite a strong demarcation line between the dyed, and the undyed then?

Catherine: Yeah. I remember going for an interview, and I literally probably had about maybe two or three inches of grey hair, like on this quiff. And I remember the interviewer pretty much talked to my grey quiff.

I can make assumptions on what they were thinking, but they were either intrigued, or they were thinking, you know, what's she doing? Does she know her hair is grey? She should dye her hair. But I just found it really interesting that they were pretty much talk like to around my hairline. And you could see them thinking, you know. I can't imagine what their thoughts were, but, you know, thinking just she's going grey, like either that's great or, you know. 

I've got like salt and pepper hair at the back, but at the front it's very, very grey, and very white. So, I think I found that difficult sometimes, initially when people were talking to the hair rather than to me. But then after a while, I started having fun with it and I'd just stop and I'd go, are checking out my grey hairs? And some people would, stop and go, oh no, sorry, sorry. I'm like, no, it's fine. I'm absolutely embracing it. 

And other people would look at me and go, yeah, like, are you just not dyeing anymore? And they'd be really excited, you know, almost encouraging me to do it, which was really, really nice.

Helen: You said you had good days and bad days during the grow out. What did you do on the bad days to help yourself?

Catherine: Tied it up. Just got a couple of hair ties, and just pulled it up into a big bun, stuck it on top and tied it up. 

I did try one of those, I think they're called hair mascara, you know, like the ones you can just use to cover little bits up. I did try those. But I'm always playing with my hair, because it's big, and it's fluffy, you know, I'm always moving it out of the way. And I would find that if I put it on the roots or stuff, and then I'd scratch my head, I'd end up with like black fingertips. And then I'd do something silly, like scratch my face, or something, and end up with smudges. So, I only did that for a little while, and then I stopped. 

So, the bad days just became a day to learn from, and to embrace being uncomfortable, because eventually the feeling of being uncomfortable turned into confidence. And I wouldn't change the way my hair is now, and I love it.

Helen: Did you live in New Zealand when you did the grow out?

Catherine: Yes. Yeah. So, in one way it was a bit lucky that at the start of it, not lucky, 'cause you know, I found out all these issues with my health and stuff in the November of 2019. And then I had surgery in February, 2020. So, I'd already done, you know, three months of grey by then. 

But then when I came out of hospital, it was only two or three weeks later that New Zealand went into Lockdown. So, we had a couple of months in Lockdown, where it probably made it a bit easier to be honest, because didn't see many people. But yeah, I think when you've got more time at home, I was probably seeing myself in the mirror a bit more, being a bit more kind of judgmental, and just wondering what on earth is this gonna look like?

But I knew that if I didn't like it when I'd grown it out, that I could colour it again if I wanted to. ‘cause I looked into like, the more natural hair dyes, like the henna ones, and there was a hairdressing salon in Wellington that did, organic, and as chemical free as they possibly could hair colouring.

And when I looked into it, it sounded great. But it was expensive. So, I just thought, no, I'm just gonna stick with it. Yeah, I'm pleased I did.

Helen: So, do you see more women going grey earlier in New Zealand than you do in the UK?

Catherine: I think I'd like to say yes, but I've been over there for 15 years, so I kind of haven't really been back in the UK long enough to notice, you know, people making that decision. Like most of my friends still colour their hair. 

Although there is one, and I'm really, really proud of her because she said to me about four weeks ago, she said, you've inspired me to stop colouring my hair. And I was like, oh my God. You know, just felt really excited, 'cause she normally wears her hair, you know, tied up. And it is quite dark, but she's got a lot of grey at the top, and the back. 

So anyway, she let her hair down, and showed me hair. She's like, I've actually got loads. And I was like, oh, I'm so excited for you. Like, it's so liberating to do it. So, I feel quite good that she's made that decision. But I couldn't say about the UK, but in New Zealand I would say I definitely knew more people my age, and younger that had grey hair, and were quite happy to just embrace it.

Helen: That would kind of fit with a pattern that I've seen. So, I think the UK, and the US are kind of the worst. And Australia's a little bit behind them. But it's interesting to see where New Zealand sits. 'cause I think a lot of European countries are a lot more relaxed about it. Certainly, the Northern European countries.

Catherine: Yeah, I must admit, when I first came back, I went to a wedding of a family member, and, you know, everyone wants to look at their best at weddings. And I think 'cause I've not been around so many people, and people I've known for a long time, one thing that I actually noticed was the amount of women that had like really dark hair, you could tell that they dyed their hair.

And I remember sitting there for a few moments thinking to myself thinking, gosh, if I bought shares in dark hair dye, I probably would be sat on a nice little mountain by now. But yeah, I've definitely noticed more people back here in my circle, dye their hair.

Helen: How did your friends and family react when you told them that you were gonna go grey?

Catherine: I mean, Mum was with me in New Zealand, and you know, I'd already kind of said I'm stopping dyeing my hair. But I think, 'cause in my mind I'd done it for health reasons, rather than I don't know if it's vanity, or you know, meeting societal expectations. I just said, no, I'm, you know, stopping dye my hair. I'm not doing this anymore. Stopped using chemicals with, you know, body lotions, and that type of thing, and deodorants. 

And, most of my family, they were really supportive. You know, they laughed along with me when I had like, the really bad, like white bits at the front, 'cause I'd make jokes about it. And especially these bits at the side. Yeah, they joked along with me, but actually the support was really, really positive. 

I think I came back to the UK a couple of years ago for Christmas, and I saw some of my friends that I hadn't seen in like nine years. So, it was the first time them seeing me grey, and again, it was lots of conversation to my hair, and to my hairline. But everybody really loved it. 

They just said, you know, I admire you for doing it. I wouldn't dare do it. My husband wouldn't let me, my husband would kill me if I, you know, did this type of thing. And I just thought, well, I don't have to worry about that either, so. But no, it was very supportive.

But I hear that a lot, you know, it's when you do something. That to you isn't necessarily a big thing. It just, once you embrace it and go and grey, I feel like it's so liberating. And I think when you actually are able to relate that to other people, you can kind of plant a seed, and encourage them to do it.

But the amount of people that would go, oh no, I wouldn't dare do it. And I just think to myself, why not? You know, because actually, even if somebody is judging you for your hair being a certain colour, so what? If they don't matter to you, then why does it matter? But yeah, we're all on our own journey, so.

Helen: We are very conditioned as a society, to help the, colour companies make lots of money, as you previously mentioned.

Catherine: Yes. Yeah, I know. It's so interesting, and I think when I learned so much about how it impacts the liver, but also the rest of the body as well, you know. Yes, our bodies are fantastic things, and they do so much to help us detox, and cleanse, and heal, but we're not indestructible.

Helen: No.

Catherine: So, I think the more love that we can give our bodies the better. I always remember, have you ever seen the movie Eat, Pray, Love with Julia Roberts?

Helen: I've read the book. I don’t know whether I've seen the movie.

Catherine: Well, it might be in the book as well. But there's a part when she goes, I can't remember where it is, but she goes abroad, and she meets a gentleman who helps her with like meditation, and finding herself, and that thing. And I think his name's Ketut, or something like that. And I remember this line from the movie, and he says to her to smile from her liver.

And it's so true that you know, and to love from your liver as well because your liver is such a big organ that detoxes, it processes your food, but it also processes life. It processes our emotions, and how we're feeling. 

And I think that's one thing that helped me learn to love my liver, and my body a lot more, by realizing what I was putting into it, and on it. And not just products, but also the things I'll listen to, the things I'll read, the things I hear. It's made a big difference. Loving from my liver.

Helen: That's not an expression I've heard before. How is the condition of your hair now that you've let it go grey, compared to before?

Catherine: It's a bit drier. 

It's funny 'cause I actually washed it this morning. I thought, I'm just gonna see how it goes, 'cause normally I straighten it. So today I've just left it, and it's like big, soft and kind of beach worthy. 

Which I was listening to a couple of other ladies that have done your Podcast as well, and I don't know if it's a similar trend that as we start to embrace our grey hair. If you've got a bit of a natural curl anyway, we seem to get this nice like beach hair kind of effect that we would've paid lots of money for a few years ago, and now it's just kind of, naturally wavy. 

It gets a bit wiry on the top where the greys are, you know, those random wiry greys that just wanna stick upwards, like an antenna. There's a few of those. But actually, I don't find it that bad because I feel like I found some good products. 

So, like if I wanted to straighten my hair, my hair will look just as healthy, and shiny as it did when I coloured it. The only difference obviously being, you know, with the hair dye, you get the silicons, and things, which make it a lot shinier.

But I found with the products that I'm using my hair doesn't really feel that much different. If anything, I probably love it more, because I can do more a natural wave in it, and just put these products on and leave it.

Helen: So what products are you using on it?

Catherine: One of them is, I can't remember the brand, but it's kind of like a hair serum. It's one, I got in New Zealand, and you literally just need like a couple of drops of it. It's very powerful, and it helps to soften down those little wiry, you know, tight curls that we get as the frizz on the outside. It helps with that. 

And then, when I came back to the UK a couple of years ago, I used Mum's shower, so she had these shampoo and conditioner bars in the shower. Now I've used them in the past, and did not have a great time with them. Like I'd used, it was obviously a different brand. I'd used a shampoo bar, and it made my hair feel like one of those wire, you know, things you used to wash the dishes. It felt awful. And then even after using the conditioner one, I had to really spend a lot of time detangling my hair. 

Anyway, when I came back to the UK, Mum had a shampoo and conditioner bar, in the shower. And I just thought, oh, I'm not going to use them. And Mum said, no, try them, they're really good. So, I did try them, and I couldn't believe how soft and gentle they made my grey hair feel. 

And they're the shampoo and conditioner bars by, I believe they're a UK company called Kinkind. And they've got a few different ones. So, the one that I've been using is, I think it's for nourishing hair, and it's got argon oil and coconut oil in it. And honestly, it's fantastic. I have never used a product that has made my grey hair feel so soft. 

I think they've got quite a few different bars that you can use, but they've got one for curly hair as well, so they've got a shampoo and condition for curly hair. And when I use that, again I find that my curls have just got a bit more definition, and bounce to them. And I'm not sure what the other ingredients are, but I feel like I need less product to tame the fizziness when I use these bars.

Helen: How often are you washing it?

Catherine: Oh, when I need to. It's one of those things like, I mean, I do go to the gym every day. So obviously if I've got sweaty and stuff, I will wash my hair. But because it's so long, and there's so much of it, I'm just gonna admit this, I can get away without washing my hair for 10 days sometimes. And if it's not dirty and I don't feel gross, then I'll do that.

I used to use dry shampoo stuff, again before I realized how many chemicals are in it. There's a lady on Instagram called Gemma Atkinson. She's been a model, and she works on one of the radio shows. And she's recently brought out a few face, and body care products. 

But she's brought out a hair spritz, and it's like dry shampoo, but it doesn't have all of the chemicals and stuff in it. And you can just kind of put a couple of spritz in your hair, blast it with the hair dryer, and it kind of takes those greasy roots away. And I found that to be really fantastic as well for helping to put off showering, and washing the mane that I have.

Helen: I only wash mine once a week, so no judgment here.

Catherine: Excellent. I think it's good to not wash it. There's a lot of people that wash their hair every day, and there's quite a bit of, evidence now to say that it's not great, you know, to do that every day. But it depends on what they're doing, so.

Helen: You've talked a little bit about fitness. What are you doing to age healthily?

Catherine: I am lifting weights. I've done things like, F45, like the functional training, which is like weights, and cardio classes kind of combined. I am lifting weights, and I feel so much better for it. Like I feel stronger. I'm not a big person anyway. I'm not overweight or anything, but I've noticed that my weight's dropped, my body fat's dropped, my muscles increased.

I do maybe three to four weights sessions a week. And I've got like a plan on my phone that I follow, from a fitness thing I signed up to just in the new year actually. And they've got like nutrition advice in there as well. I do three or four weight sessions a week, and then I try and get my eight to 10,000 steps in a day. And then I'll have like a high intensity cardio session once or twice a week.

That doesn't always happen because sometimes I can't be bothered, and sometimes, you know, depending how my hormones are, and if I'm just feeling a bit flat, then I'll miss a day or two. But I try not to miss any more than that, because once you fall out of it, it's harder to get back into it. But yeah, I really enjoy it.

And you know, when I say lifting weights, I'm not lifting like massive barbells or anything like that. I'm just lifting enough to challenge myself every time I'm at the gym, and I am feeling better for it. 

It kind of coincides with my health journey of like learning, you know, about the impacts of hair dye, and everything on my liver. I was actually doing my naturopath training when I was in New Zealand, and I was studying part-time. So, I've done four years naturopath training, and again, learned about all the natural things that we can do to help us. 

But exercise and weight lifting's one of the most important for women, you know, from, well, I would say any age. But I look at older women in my family that have got issues with their hips or knees. And I'm very much of the mindset that if I can do what I can do now. To kind of prevent or delay those types of things happening, then that's what I'm going to do. 

I think there's a famous person that used it from like way back, and I can't remember who it is, but there's a quote, which is basically; an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. So, whatever we can do to prevent things is, much better than trying to deal with something.

Helen: I'm with you on the strength training as well. I go twice a week. But I run, and I do yoga as well.

Catherine: Yeah, I'm really keen to get into yoga. It relaxes me that much that I just wanna go to sleep. But maybe I need to go to a different class. Have you ever tried hot yoga?

Helen: I haven't tried hot yoga, 'cause I'm quite a hot person anyway. I do Iyenga yoga, which is strength and alignment, rather than you probably do something like Hatha, which is the relaxing one. So, the one I do is more about strength.

Catherine: Maybe I need to look into that one. I mean, don't get me wrong, I enjoy sleeping as well, but not in the middle of a yoga class.

Helen: I'm gonna ask you one last question. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what advice and tips would you have for them?

Catherine: Just do it. Don't overthink it. Don't worry about what you think that other people might think, or say. Because more often than not, people will be inspired by you doing what's right for you, and embracing something that goes against the societal trends of what we should and shouldn't do. Just go with it, stick with it.

Get through those little moments where you think, now I'm gonna dye my hair. I've got a wedding to go to. Just push through. It is so liberating, and freeing on the other side, that I would encourage everybody that can to do it.

Helen: Brilliant. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fab guest. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Catherine: Thanks so much, Helen.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.