Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye. 

Today I'm joined by Emily Payne. She's a singer, author, playwright, and YouTuber. She's also worked as a sex worker for nearly 20 years. She's 51 years old, and stopped dyeing her hair dark brown almost four years ago, and has never looked back. Good morning, Emily. How are you?

Emily: Oh, good morning. I'm fine. Thank you.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Emily: When I was a child? I think I was blonde until I was about five. And then I just went dark brown, and I stayed dark brown until my late forties.

Helen: Was your hair long, or short when you were smaller?

Emily: I never had really long hair. It was like late Seventies, early Eighties. So it was that pudding bowl style was quite popular, that everybody had at the time. 

I think I got my first perm when I was about nine, and I had permed hair until I was about 15. It was through the Eighties, so it was all very big, and very crispy, and very scrunched dried, and all that.

Helen: Very Kylie Locomotion then?

Emily: Aiming to look like Janet Jackson. She was my hair heroine. If you remember the group Five Star. I loved anything like that. So, it was very hairsprayed, put it that way.

Helen: And did you experiment with colouring it?

Emily: Yeah. Because it was really dark brown, there's not a lot you can do with it. It won't take a lot of colour. But I used to use temporary dyes a lot when I was a teenager. The little Harmony dyes, putting like toners on, and things like that. Get bit a red tinge. But like I said, it's so dark. It's not a hell of a lot you can do colour-wise.

You name it, I did it to me hair throughout the Eighties.

Helen: When did you find your first white hair?

Emily: Probably, I think I was a teenager. I can't remember. I was very young, I would've been a teenager, I think.

Helen: And how did you feel about it?

Emily: I wasn't bothered. I just don't remember it really registering. It was just one of those things. I think I just pulled it out probably, but I wasn't bothered.

Helen: Did you reach a point where you started colouring your hair to cover the greys?

Emily: Well, yes and no. I started dyeing me hair, probably in my late twenties. And that was more about wanting black hair. It wasn't about covering grey it was just wanting jet black hair. So, I started dyeing me hair, permanently in my late twenties to just have black hair. Sorry, thirties I dyed my hair jet black. 

And then I decided, as I sort was around 40, I decided I think I'll go back to dark brown. And sort of strip the black out, and go back to just my natural colour, dark brown. 

But by that point I was fairly grey. But because I was always doing the roots, and I never gotta see how grey I was. But I'm presuming that I had quite a lot of grey by then. But it was more the fact that I just wanted a certain colour rather than covering grey.

Helen: Yeah. And were you dyeing it at home?

Emily: Yeah. I've always just done dyed my own hair with box dye.

Helen: How often were you dyeing it by the end?

Emily: I would normally try and do me roots about every two and a half weeks, leave it no longer than three weeks.

Helen: Okay, so pretty regularly?

Emily: Yeah. So I never saw how grey I was getting, through the years really. 'cause I was touching up straight away.

Helen: So is that because the roots bothered you? 

Emily: They didn't bother us. No. I'm just quite a well-groomed person. It was just part of new routine.

Helen: What was the catalyst for deciding to stop dyeing it?

Emily: Well, I think it was, by this point I was in the late forties, sort of 46, 47. And I wanted a different look. I was bored with just the dark brown hair. I thought it was quite bland. And I thought as I was getting older, I would be more complimentary to go a bit lighter.

I thought about a long time about what I should do. And because my hair was so dark, it's hard to do anything without bleaching it, and putting bleach through it, and lightening it otherwise you're a bit stuck. If your hair's really dark, it's nothing much you can do.

So, I thought, well anything I did was gonna involve a lot of lightning. And I thought about sort of copper highlights, and caramel highlights, and just lightening it. But I thought I can't do that myself, so that's gonna be trips to the hairdresser as well. So, I just thought, oh, this is gonna be a lot of work. Is it worth it? 

And then I thought, well, hold on. You have actually got light hair now. I could see if I left me roots a little bit longer. I could see that I was pretty much fully grey. So, I thought well, what's the point of trotting off to a hairdresser every couple of weeks, and paying a fortune, when you've actually got naturally lighter hair now? You’re probably grey. 

So, I thought well, why don't you just try it, just don't dye for a few months. See how grey you are. Everybody goes grey differently, don’t they? There's so many different types of grey. 

So, I just stopped dyeing it for a few months, just out of curiosity really, to see what it looked like. And how I felt. And then I liked it, so I never dyed it again.

Helen: So, did you just have like the hard line, the whole way through the grow out?

Emily: Yes, I did because me hair started quite long. It was well past my shoulders, dark brown. I do like long hair. I wanted to keep me long hair. I ummed and ahhed about different ways to do it. 

I was actually tempted to shave my head. Saying I wanted long hair, I was tempted to shave my head. Just to get it all over and done with. But then I looked, and I thought, oh, I don't think I'd carry that off. 

So yeah, I just had the sort of skunk effect of grey roots and dark ends, for about 16 months until I got it all cut off.

Helen: How did you feel about it during the grow out when you had that skunk stripe?

Emily: It got easier. The first few months, say three, four months, because I'm quite well-groomed, and I do my hair, and my nails, and me makeup and that every day. You know, I like this look of certain way, it just felt a bit of a mess. It just felt like

I'd just forgotten to do my roots, you know. 

I didn't really care what other people were thinking. I mean, it's my hair, I don't care. But, yeah, just to me it just looked a bit of a mess. And you just got a big white parting down the middle of your head, so it looks a bit odd. 

So, I was trying to find different ways to style it and things. I did try that hair mascara as well, when it was maybe like a centimetre of, and I was doing a little play sort of an experimental little play that, so I was on stage. And it just looked a bit of a mess because it was just a centimetre of grey roots. 

So, I tried like a dark brown hair mascara, and the spray, you know, like the dark brown spray. But I've only tried that once, and it was just such a faff, it did the job for one night, but I wouldn't have used that long term. 

Once it got to about seven, eight months of grow out, I actually quite liked it then. And people actually thought that it was an effect that I'd done on purpose. And I'd gone to the hairdresser to get a sort of ombre sort of look, and they thought it was dyed to be like that. It actually looked quite dramatic. I quite liked it at that point.

Helen: How about the condition of your hair compared to before? Is it any better, any worse?

Emily: Yes, it's better. Because I was over-processing it when it was dark, because I was kind of fighting the natural condition of it. As I've got older as well, it's got more wave to it.

Helen: Yeah.

Emily: And actually, quite curly sometimes. So, I was kind of always battling, straightening it. Hair drying it every day, straightening it every day. And I was dyeing it, and I was using hairspray, and products, and things. 

It was at the same time that I decided to stop dyeing it. I also decided to stop using hair spray, stop straightening me hair, so that would've had quite an effect on the condition. So now, it actually feels really different. It's much softer than when it was dyed. 

Helen: Yeah.

Emily: It has been quite a different texture.

Helen: Yeah. I think a lot of people expect grey hair to be quite wiry, and I find mines quite soft.

Emily: Yeah, I think it's soft. But like I said, that's gone hand in hand with the fact that I stopped over-processing it as well. As I say, as I've got older, it's definitely got more wavy, and a bit of curl in it. I leave it a dry naturally usually, and then I just scrunch a bit of oil through it. So that's probably why it's so soft now. It does feel very different.

Helen: Are you using any grey hair shampoos and conditioners?

Emily: Yes, I do. I use probably once to twice a week. I use a purple shampoo, and like a purple mask. 

Helen: Yeah.

Emily: I was a bit dubious as to whether they had any effect. I thought there were maybe a bit of a gimmick, or whatever. But I think they do have a like, quite a subtle effect to, just brighten me hair a bit. Make it, you know, a bit greyer if you like, sort of a brighter grey, which I like.

Helen: With going grey, have you found that your style has changed at all in terms of the clothes you're wearing, your makeup, that kind of thing?

Emily: Yeah, I suppose it has. I found when I had dark hair, especially black hair, I could wear anything. I could get away with anything, my colouring just seemed to suit any colour. 

And I had friends who had red hair or blonde hair, they'd always say, I can't wear this colour, or that colour. And same with their makeup. 

I find now I've got light coloured hair, yeah, it's a bit different. I haven't not got any hard and fast rules, but now you've said it, yeah, I probably do. Things don't look quite the same. But if I like them, I'll wear them anyway.

Helen: And how about your makeup?

Emily: I did experiment, when I just decided alright, this is for me, I like grey coming in, and I'm not going to dye it back. ‘cause I wear makeup every day. I do have like a makeup artist qualification, and I'm quite interested in it.

So, I thought well I wonder if different colours are gonna suit me now. So, I experimented. I normally wear sort of coppers, and browns, and sort of more coppery, coral sort of colours. 

But I experimented with more sort of lilacs and purply, and pinky sort of colours, but that just didn't work. It worked with me hair, but it didn't work with the rest of my face.

Helen: You’re really comfortable with your grey hair now?

Emily: Yeah, I absolutely love it. I was gonna start about a year before, growing it out, not dyeing it. And I didn't. And now I wish I had just started the year before. Because yeah, I love it. 

When I wanted to change me hair, one of the reasons was like, I think I said that the dark round was just a bit, nah, it was a bit middle of the road, kind of, you know, a bit boring. 

And I like to stand out, and I found that me black hair used to get loads of compliments. I used to have really long black hair. And I used to get loads of compliments, and it made us stand out. 

And I thought, oh, now it's just kind of shoulder length dark brown. I just didn't feel like I was standing out. And once I've gone completely grey. You stand out again. And people love it, I get compliments from complete strangers in the street, just when I'm out shopping, and they're very curious about me hair.

Helen: How did your friends and family react when you said you were gonna go grey?

Emily: They weren't bothered. They weren't interested. I haven't got like that sort of friends and family who are like judgy, and kind of traditional, and kind of scared of their own shadow kind of thing. I dunno how to put it. They just, they wouldn't care. It’s my hair, I can do what I want with it.

Helen: Which is fantastic. The other question I was gonna ask you, one of the things that I see quite a lot in Facebook groups, from single women, is being concerned about going grey

Emily: Right.

Helen:  if they wanna find a partner. 

Emily: Okay.

Helen: Have you found any difference in terms of whether you attract people or not with the grey hair?

Emily: Absolutely not, no. Like you say, I've been in sex worker for almost 20 years. Men really aren't that complicated. They're very easily pleased. Men are not going to take any notice of the fact that your hair's grey. 

If anything, I get much younger men, attracted to us now. Like a different type of men possibly. Younger men, definitely. It's really quite popular. I suppose, just having grey hair in itself, it depends on how you look in general. How you present yourself in general.

Helen: Yeah.

Emily:  Doesn't it? It doesn't all come down the grey hair. So, if you're gonna kind of go grey, and then sort of dodder around like you're 90 years old, then yeah, maybes, men won't find you that attractive. 

But just because you've got grey hair, doesn't mean you have to just fade into the background, and sort of be apologetic about it.

Helen: Yeah, you're still very conscious of your image, and your makeup.

Emily: Yeah. But I always have been. I enjoy looking a certain way. I don't feel any pressure to do it. I just enjoy it. But yeah, I suppose I make an effort every day, and so maybe I get a different response, than someone who doesn't present themselves in general in the way I do. 

But no, honest to God, I wouldn't worry about it at all. What can I say? Men just don't notice the things women think they're noticing about them. If that makes sense.

Helen: Yeah, that does make sense. I had a conversation with a guy at a networking event about lipstick, and he was like, I just don't get why women are so hung up on wearing lipstick. It's like, for me, it makes no sense at all.

Emily: Yeah. So, all of that kind of thing goes straight over men's heads. I wouldn't fret about it. If I was a single woman, and I was looking for a man, I wouldn't let it cross my mind for one second.

Helen: A very different question now then. Are you doing anything to age healthily?

Emily: Oh, plenty. Yes. I go to the gym pretty much every day. But I've done that for years, God, 20, 25 years, whatever. In the past, it was about have I looked and being fit and strong. Now it is, I do sort of, do it as well to ward off, certain negative things about getting older, and aches and pains and things like that.

I like to stay strong. I'm very into strength training, for women. I run. I'm conscious now of kind of going into my fifties and sixties, and I don't want a lot of the aches and pains that people seem to think are inevitable, and I don't necessarily think they are. I think a lot of people kind of talk themselves into getting old.

Helen: Yeah.

Emily: And there's no need for it. I eat very healthily. And yeah, I've always lived quite a healthy, clean-living sort of life, so I'm just carrying that on as I get older, I suppose.

Helen: I'm with you there, with the running and the strength training.

Emily: Yeah. Yeah. I really advocate strength training for women, especially as they're getting older. You lose so much muscle mass as you get older. And that in itself causes a lot of issues, for men and women.

Helen: Yeah, for bone density and stuff, and also just like the way you stand.

Emily: Just the way you stand, the way you get up out of a chair. And it just feels good to be able to lift something heavier than yourself. It just feels empowering, and it feels good. 

And I think a lot of, sort of, it never even crossed their mind to do it, and have a certain image of it, or how it's gonna make them look, or it's intimidating or. I just think, oh, just, go and do it. If you wanna do something, just go and do it. Life's too short.

Helen: I'm very impressed if you can lift more than your body weight.

Emily: Oh, yes. I'm glad you're impressed.

Helen: I had the ambition for a long time to be able to deadlift my body weight. 

Emily: Right, well you’ll get there. If you keep trying.

Helen: I deadlifted 70 kilos a couple of weeks ago when I weighed 70.8. and I was like, 

Emily: Oh, right.

Helen: I'll take that. I'm gonna ask you one last question then. 

Emily: Okay.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, would you have any tips or advice for them?

Emily: Well, no other than just do it. It's really not that big a deal. It's only hair. 

I think somebody did ask me not long ago, and I said, they were going on and on about it, as if it’s like the end of the world, like the biggest decision that ever made. And I said, give it a couple of months, if you don't like it, just dye again. It's really not that big deal. It's only hair. 

But I would say if you're thinking about doing it. Just do It. Just see if you like it, if you don't, don't do it,

Helen: Cool. The other thing I was gonna say to you is one, of my guests actually did shave her head. Well, I've had two of them.

Emily: Ah right. Yes, I regret that now. I want really long grey hair. It’s getting bit length on it now, so I won't be shaving it. But I regret it actually, not just biting the bullet and shaving it.

Helen: Yeah, one of the ones who shaved her hair, she left a little bit at the fringe.

Emily: Right.

Helen: But she now has waist length grey hair.

Emily: Ah, lovely. Ah so there you go, see. That’s what I mean, hair grows, it’s not the end of the world. 

Helen: No, it can be done. Cool. Well, in that case, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Emily: Ah, thank you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.