Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week, I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye.

Today, I'm joined by Sue Whitaker. She worked in corporate HR for over 20 years, and was always surprised that appearance was related to job capability. Lockdown was a great opportunity to embrace the grey, as she wasn't working in the office under normal circumstances. She now has her own business, and she's free to work on her own terms. 

Good afternoon, Sue. How are you?

Sue: Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me on your podcast. I'm really pleased to be here.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Sue: Oh, wow. It was quite dark brown, and I've always had it long. But it was fairly curly, is my memory. So, it's got straighter as I've got older, basically. So yeah. But it was dark brown.

Helen: And did you ever experiment with colouring it in your teens?

Sue: Oh, that's a good one. Do you know what? My Mum was really keen for me not to, so rather than actually dyeing it as such, I did actually play with hairstyles. So, there was one point where I actually remember having my hair, like on top knot, sort of like on the top of my head, and I thought it looked really cool, and it really didn't.

But I think I tried to do that to make myself look a little bit older, because we were trying to get in to see a 15 movie, so that kind of puts the age range. But no, I always did, sort of interesting things with it, you know, to sort of try and look different. But honestly, I was really pleased just to have it sort of long and natural.

Helen: It was always kind of part of your image then, playing with your hair?

Sue: Yeah. Do you know what? It was actually, I considered it to be one of my best features when I was growing up, because I didn't feel like I had to do much with it other than actually, like brush it, and obviously wash it. But I was not keen on, like pouring loads of stuff into it, like loads of chemicals and stuff. And it was always quite strong.

And I remember my Mum saying to me when it was, like, really windy and it went everywhere, she was always like, "Maybe you should tie it up or something." And I was like, "No, I'm not. I'm going to let it flow with the breeze," 'cause I just liked the freedom it gave me. And the fact that it kept me warm in winter, and it protected the neck from the sun in the summer. So, for me it was a win-win. So yeah, I loved it.

Helen: Cool. Can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Sue: Oh, yes, I think I can actually. I think I remember starting to see them, because it wasn't just like one, there were like several of them, but they were all dotted over. And it was in my late 30s. Mid-late 30s. Yeah. So, I sort of like started to see these really sort of, you know, they really stuck out because my hair was quite dark brown. So, I was a bit like, "Oh my gosh, what do I do?"

And I remember saying to my Mum at the time, "What do I do?" And she was like, "Don't you dare pull them out. You pull them out, you'll get like loads more." So, I didn't. But I went back to sort of trying to brush things, or do things to try and sort of hide them. Because I wasn't expecting to get them that early in my age, and I had no idea why either, so yeah.

Helen: Wow. See, 30s is not early.

Sue: No, but I think because I was actually working in corporate at the time, I felt like nobody else was actually, I wasn't seeing it through anybody else. So, I think I felt odd at the time. You know? 

Because obviously, a lot of other people clearly were dyeing their hair, because people a lot older in a corporate setting had natural coloured hair shall we say, because they'd been dyeing it for so long. There was an element of me thinking, "Well, what's wrong? What have I done?" You know? 

But the interesting thing I always found was, my greys really started to come through on the top layer of my head, and this was the area where I was straightening it. So, when I was in corporate there was always this element of, 'cause my hair started to have like a few kinks, they felt like it would be more professional if it was like sort of straight, and sort of neat, you know? And sort of edges were sort of, you know, straight and flat.

So, I was basically like sort of really, using the hot tongs to actually to straighten it, and those were the bits that went white first. So yeah, I found that interesting. Found that really interesting.

Helen: Did you reach a point where you started dyeing it to cover the greys?

Sue: Yes, absolutely. Yes. As soon as I started to see some of them, and several of them, then I started dyeing. Yes. I actually started to go to a hairdresser initially, but I think as a lot of people say, you know, that takes a lot of time and money.

So, I basically would have what they call, like, a T-section because obviously coming through, the roots et cetera, and around the front was where it was coming through most. So, I would have like a T-bar.

And then what I did was as more was coming through the front, I then started home dyeing. And having all the mistakes that come with home dyeing. So, it was always, like a natural kind of reddish brown, that I would do. And I would sometimes play with, like how dark, or how light it was. 

But, yeah, there were a few towels that got sacrificed for trying to dye it at home, 'cause it got very messy. But again, lots of effort, you know. And I was paranoid about the regrowth, so obviously rather than just sort of touch it up, I would end up just dyeing the whole thing. 'cause it was easy. 

But that meant that I was dyeing it, you know, at one point I think I was dyeing it every four to six weeks, which just, don't know, it kind of went against what I felt when I was younger. 'cause I felt like I was just, like throwing lots of stuff onto my hair. And I'm not convinced it was the best thing for my hair, you know?

Helen: Do you know why you started dyeing it in the first place?

Sue: Yes. The great thing about saying this now is because it's probably not what I told people at the time. But when I was in corporate, I got told, actually by other women in leadership, which was really difficult to get my head around, that I was really good at my job. But because I didn't look professional, my expertise wasn't being taken seriously by the leadership team.

So, part of that was how I dressed. And then it kind of moved on to, like hair and make-up. So, I had to change my regime. Bearing in mind that this is, like 2000s, right? So, we're not talking, like 1960s, or '80s or anything like that. This was, you know, a corporate setting sort of like 10, 15 years ago.

And part of the regime was make-up, and then dyeing the hair. And once I started doing it, I felt like I had to keep doing it. So, I did it for a long time.

Helen: That actually is quite similar to me in terms of, clothing at work. So, in one of my early jobs, I got told that I was still dressing too much like a student. And that if I dressed like a professional, I would get a pay rise. 

So, I did. I went out, and spent a couple of hundred pounds on suits. And they gave me a two grand pay rise. 

Sue: Wow.

Helen: And it absolutely had no reflection on my ability to do the job, but it was just all around the image.

Sue: Well, that was it. I was working in an inherently male industry, and it was one where there were sales people as well as, you know, sort of technical engineering people. And basically, I had to go to the showrooms, because it was automotive basically. 

And when I went to the showrooms, what I would start to do, I guess I would say that I was very similar. I would sort of dress as a student. I would say it was comfortable, you know? It was like trousers and a nice top, it was professional. You know, it was like a shirt with a collar or whatever, you know? 

But because I wore comfy shoes, and because I wore trousers, I ended up being encouraged to wear higher heels. Dresses or skirts. And not carry my laptop in a backpack, you know, just to carry it actually on the side. So, all of these things apparently played a part.

And one of the things was the hair trap. And of course, once you dye your hair once, unless you get an opportunity, it's really difficult to actually to go back. So yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't say I got a pay rise, but I definitely got promoted, within six months of having that.

So, I actually ended up being successful in achieving a secondment. And that led to a permanent promotion. Which did come with more money, you know? But yeah, it affected me quite a bit I think at the time, because this was senior people telling me this, so you know, it was a bit like, "Are you serious?" "Are we seriously doing that?" 

And apparently yes, yes, we were. And I'd hate to think that it happens nowadays, but I bet it still does, because I think it's so engrossed in society, you know?

Helen: You've already said it in your introduction that you went grey during Lockdown. How many years did you dye your hair for?

Sue: So, I think I probably. Where are we now? So, I said 30s, didn't I? I think the maths was probably earlier 30s than what I'm thinking. So, I probably dyed my hair for about at least 10 years. At least 10 to 12 years.

Helen: And then you said you stopped dyeing it in Lockdown.

Sue: Yes.

Helen: What was the trigger then for deciding not to colour it?

Sue: I think part of it was that I was working for a different industry where they actually didn't need me to be on site all the time anyway, which was fine. But as soon as we were actually in Lockdown, and didn't have to go to the office, there were other people that were having other changes as well. 

So other people were like, you know, either gaining weight, or losing weight, or something like that. And I remember somebody in the office saying, " I'm gonna go grey." 

And I was just like, " Why not?" You know, I'm gonna stop the dye, and I was just like, "Why not?" You know, like, what am I dyeing for? If I'm never going into the office at the moment and I'm at home, why would I need to actually keep dyeing? 

So, I stopped dyeing, and I basically thought, "I don't know how long it's gonna take to grow out. I don't know how I'm gonna feel, but I might as well give it the opportunity.", And then I started it, and then it got to a point where, you know, I very much had a two-tone kind of hair.

Helen: Yeah.

Sue: You know, it's sort of like you get the roots and you go, "Oh my gosh, I would normally dye it now." And then it sort of starts to go down by the ear and you go, "I'm really doing this. I'm really doing this." Had Lockdown have closed, earlier than it did, I actually think I'd have ended up going back to dyeing it.

But because it grew quite quickly. And because obviously Lockdown, the overall thing took a long time. There got to a point where I was like taking photos, and it just got down to sort of the lower ends. And then I could sort of chop it off, you know. And go a little bit shorter, but get that colour out.

And actually, I can honestly say that, I felt very liberated. But also, I felt sad as well at the same time. I'm not quite sure if sad is the right word to say it, but I definitely felt not confident while it was two-tone. Not confident. And I wasn't sure how much I was gonna keep up with it, once it had all gone, that was it. I thought, "That's, good." 

But once I was in that middling stage where either it was just less than half or more than half that was changing, I felt very much like, you know, am I gonna have the empower, or encouragement to actually keep going with it? Because I got a multitude of different people, expressing their own opinions about what my hair looked like at the time when they saw me on video.

Helen: So, did you find that sort of middle stage the most difficult then, rather than the first few inches?

Sue: Definitely the middle stage. Definitely, yeah. I think once it had got to a point of this isn't the roots now, this is actually like half my sort of head down to the ear sort of thing. 

Because a lot of the grey was coming through, 'cause I'd been dyeing it for so long, I had no idea what kind of grey it was gonna go, what kind of colour it was gonna look like. I didn't know whether I was gonna go, like, white, silver. You know. I had no idea. I was just letting the natural thing come through. 

But because all of the top layers that I'd constantly straightened, had gone white or grey. Then yeah, it took a long time for that top layer to come through. And the really interesting thing is that actually I've still got a lot of colour underneath, but obviously underneath doesn't really make that much difference unless you're going to put your hair, you know, some kind of odd sort of ponytail or something. 

But having the top layers be grey, meant that I felt quite not confident. I felt under-confident when it was between the ear, and sort of three-quarters of the way through, until I could chop it. I felt flat. I felt like I was struggling with the change, if I'm honest. Yeah.

Helen: And were you tempted to cut it shorter?

Sue: Yes. Yes. Yes, there was. I definitely, didn't wanna go to the hairdressers because COVID was a thing. So, I actually had a friend come over and chop it. And every so often they would take off, like, a healthy amount, right? They would take off a healthy amount that meant that it would keep growing, which was great. 

But there was one point, I remember there was at least a couple of occasions when they visited, and I was just like, "Maybe you should just, like literally chop it at the ear, or something and just get rid."

I guess I started to feel more and more comfortable with it the more I sort of took pictures, or the more that people saw it. I was actually really well supported with my family and my Husband, et cetera. They were very supportive of the fact that I wanted to do it. And I think that really helped.

I think if they weren't supportive, I think I'd have felt even worse. But it was only the people that didn't see me very often, or when they saw me on a video call, or whatever, they hadn't seen me for a few months. They would be the ones that would say the things that I could have taken to heart

Helen: Okay, so they were people who weren't particularly close to you, but still felt it was appropriate for them to comment?

Sue: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we're talking probably people, you know, in the working world, right? So, we went from working in an office to working from home, and all dialling into different things. 

And probably one of the first things that people would say was, "Oh my gosh, what have you done to your hair?" You know? And it wasn't a, "Oh, wow, you've dyed it some lovely colour." It was, "Oh, you've let it go," sort of thing. It was a bit like, "Oh, you've let it go," you know? " What are you doing?" 

And it felt a bit odd because it felt like, you know, that it wasn't necessarily a positive thing. It was a negative thing almost like as if I'd stopped trying, you know, to look nice. And I didn't feel that at all. You know, once I got into it, I was a bit like, "Well, no, I'm just letting my hair do its natural thing." 

If anything, I feel like I was coming back to what I had when I was younger, which was just letting my hair be what it wanted to be, you know? And it was very interesting, because I think it was very much their opinion, that they would almost worry about how good I was at my job, because I had my hair dyed grey. 

So, I actually had a conversation literally with somebody else the other day, and they said, "I dye my hair at the moment, and I actually think I should go grey, because it might make people realize that I am older, and therefore have more experience in my field," which I thought was very, very interesting.

Whereas for me personally, my journey, when I started to embrace it, embrace the natural colour, and the grey. People said, you know, that they were almost sort of worried about that it would impact my ability to do my job. They would never say it out loud, but they would sort of almost insinuate.

There would be this, "Oh, you're clearly getting on," or something, you know? That there was that kind of something about, "Oh, you're age, so you're getting to the point now where you can't be bothered, so does that mean you're not gonna be bothered professionally?" It wasn't what I expected. Wasn't what I expected.

Helen: Are you still getting that same reaction now that it's all grown out?

Sue: I don't actually now. No. I don't have compliments as such about it. But when other people are growing their hair out, there's one person in particular who's part of a business networking I do, she was talking about growing her hair out, and I asked her why she didn't do it in COVID, because she's got very light grey coming through, and she's a very dark set of head of hair. So, there's no hiding it, if you like. And she just said, "I wasn't ready then." 

And I was like, "Well, that's fine. Fair play to you." But she likes to be able to talk about her experience, and how she's feeling. So, I often get people talking to me about, you know, how long have you had it like that, et cetera. You know, how did you feel about growing it out? 

And even to the point where some people have talked to me about, how they tend to do better as a business woman, if they straighten their hair, than if their hair is curly.

Helen: Crazy.

Sue: Which is just seems absolutely crazy, crazy. So, if anything, it's just kind of invited the conversation, with a lot of women, and I don't mind that. I am quite happy with that. I guess the key thing for me is I'm happy in myself now, you know.

Helen: Have you found that you've changed your make-up, and your clothing after you've gone grey?

Sue: Yes. Do you know what? I really have. Alot of the makeup regime that I had was to please others. Whereas now, my make-up regime is literally focused on what's best for my, like, skin, you know, rather than necessarily what looks nice. So I'm very pragmatic. I would rather put stuff on that will give it the right nutrients, and things like that.

Although I do remember somebody, when I was on holiday before COVID, saying that, you know, you were getting into your 40s, and therefore you might need to consider, you know, anti-aging cream and stuff. And that just sounded like terrible advice. But anyway, I was like, "Oh, okay."

My Mum and I look very similar, and she used to put loads of creams on. So, I only go with what's healthy now, as in what is good for it. So, if it's dry, then to moisturize it, rather than necessarily a toner or anything like that. 

From a clothes perspective, again, I've got a wardrobe, in the house with the clothes that I used to wear. Haven't thrown them away yet, but I probably haven't worn them since the Pandemic. And one of the reasons why I haven't is because, I don't see the need to, you know. 

That's one of the great beauties about being your own business person, is you get to choose who you work with. And if they don't like you, or don't wanna work with you, because you're wearing a colour, or a T-shirt, or a top that they don't think is professional, then they might not be the kind of people I wanna work with, in all honesty.

So, you know, I'm definitely more authentic now than what I was some years ago. Yeah. 

Helen: And how do you feel about where you’re at in the ageing process?

Sue: Oh, I was actually quite worried about the ageing process. A few years ago, I felt like I was at a point where I was actually going to be, like over the hill, like it's too late for everything, sort of thing. 

And then in my 40s, I decided to own horses. So, horses were my midlife crisis, but they were also a dream as well. They were also a dream I wanted from a very, very young age. And having horses has actually prompted me to almost embrace the age piece, you know. Because if anybody knows about having horses, you know, it's not glamorous. You know, it's outdoors in all weathers, et cetera.

So everything that I do almost complements that, because it's not too far away from what I normally wear. You know, in terms of leggings, or a top, or whatever. And the great thing is the people there, they may have points where they glamour themselves up, but for the majority of it, it is practical and that.

So, I felt like I've actually embraced the ageing process more now, than I probably did previously. I'm not sure I'm wholly looking forward to, you know, the future. But I definitely would say that I'm more comfortable with where I am right now. And I feel like I've got a lot of life left, so I don't feel like I'm over it, or anything at all.

Which is weird, 'cause I think some people look at age, and they worry about it. And I just don't. I'm gonna make the best of everything I've got right now.

Helen: And are you doing anything to age healthily?

Sue: Ooh, age healthily. The horses help with that, because exercise, being outdoors. 

I definitely am one of those people where I feel like you have to not only look after yourself physically, but also psychologically, and mentally. My family have got sort of dementia, and cancer in the genealogy a little bit. So, I'm very aware of doing things that might support healthy living. 

But in terms of things like alcohol, and no drinking, no smoking, more sleep, absolutely, yeah. I've been doing that probably since I became 40. Since 40 plus. Yeah. And it's been a conscious decision because I've reaped the benefits of giving those things up.

Helen: Cool. I'm gonna ask you one last question. 

Sue: Okay.

Helen: So, if somebody came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," what hints and tips would you have for them?

Sue: I would be honest, and give them my lived experience. And say you don't know what it's gonna look like until it's happening. Because you might have an idea of how it's gonna go. You might think it's gonna be completely grey, and it won't. I would say to them that, you know, the middling stage is difficult.

And I would probably just say to them that, you know, they can seek opinions from others, like doing it gradually if that doesn't help. But honestly, I would probably say to them, "Make sure you're doing it for the right reasons." 

So, my tip would be “Make sure you're doing it for the right reason.” Because I think if you're doing it to please others, you're never going to embrace the journey. So yeah, just make sure that you're doing that, and basically have fun with it, you know. So, yeah.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating hearing your story. 

Sue: Thanks so much.

Helen: Enjoy the rest of your day.

Sue: Yeah, you too. Thank you very much for having me.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier.grey. Have a great week.