Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Mia Maugé. She's a positive ageing activist who started modelling six years ago at the age of 54 after she was scouted from her Instagram content. Hello, Mia. How are you?

Mia: Hi, Helen. Nice to meet you.

Helen: And you. I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Mia: My hair was brown when I was a child, and pretty much the same texture as it is now. Curly. It was thicker, that's for sure. It's definitely thinned a bit, in recent years. 

I loved my hair. My hair has always been a bit of a statement, I think. Also 'cause I kind of grew up, my childhood was in the '70s, where Afro hair was a source of pride as well, and Black pride. So, it was always a bit of a statement, my hair. 

You know, like, I've always enjoyed experimenting with it, and having different hairstyles. So yeah, hair's important, I think.

Helen: Yeah, I think a lot of people, it's fairly central to their image.

Mia: Yeah.

Helen: Did you have it long or short as a child?

Mia: Both. I've got pictures of me with a short Afro, and quite long in pigtails as well, or, you know, bunches.

Helen: Did you experiment with colouring at all in your teens?

Mia: I remember going through a little phase, I think it was punk, during the punk era, where I had an Afro with a blonde streak in it. And I think I lasted with that phase for maybe a month or so, I think it probably was. And then quickly dyed it. 

Have I ever dyed it since? Not, other than in my adult life to cover the silvers. No, I've never had fun with dye. That was the only time, and yeah, I've never enjoyed dyeing it, no.

Helen: When did you find your first white hairs?

Mia: Do you know, I don't remember when I first dyed it. I remember vividly when I felt like there were too many.

I always really liked the silver colour. And I remember seeing it on a woman called Camille Cosby, who is Bill Cosby's wife. And I remember it must have been in the '80s where she had cut her hair short. She'd been dyeing it. She cut it short, and she just had a very short hairstyle that was silver, completely silver. 

That was my first reference of sort of somebody who looked absolutely beautiful with silver hair. And I was like, "When I'm old, when I'm 45 and old," because 45 was old in my mind then, "I will do that. That's how I'm gonna look when I'm older." When I was 45, I definitely wasn't ready to do it. 

I mean, I started dyeing it when I was 33, and I've only recently thought about this, but I'd just had my second child. I was the oldest mum in my group of mums, my new mummy friends that I'd met. You know, the community of mums that you meet on the school run and whatever. And I was the oldest. 

And I think maybe that was part of my decision to start dyeing it as well, was there was suddenly too many of them, and everybody was much younger than me, and I was stupid enough to buy into society's beauty standards. And also ageist kind of messaging that we get throughout our lives was embedded in me. 

And I didn't realize it at the time, but to me, it was like, "Okay, it's too early. I don't want this now. Maybe when I'm 45, but definitely not now." So, I remember I started dyeing it, regularly then.

Helen: Did you dye it yourself or did you go to hairdresser?

Mia: A bit of both. A bit of both. I didn't have a big income to be able to do it every time at the salon. So, it was a bit of both. I did a bit of box dye at home. Towards the end it was only box dye 'cause it was so frequent. It was like every two weeks. But back then it wasn't as frequent, so yeah.

Helen: And when you were dyeing it, how did you feel when you saw roots coming through?

Mia: See, this is the thing. For me, I never liked the results. The only thing I liked about the results was they were covering up my secret, you know? For me, I was so caught up in the ageist values around silver hair means you look old, and over the hill, past your sell-by date. You know, it's the beginning of the decline. All of that. 

I, at the time, didn't challenge and didn't question, and I just went along with it. Was like, "Right, every time I dye my hair, I have, like five days," this is towards the end, "about five days where I feel good. I feel like, you know, everyone's gonna be fooled, and they're gonna think I'm much younger than I actually am," you know?

It's ridiculous to think about this now, because I'm so far away from that now, and that mindset. But it was painful. So, I would dye it, have five good days. And then the roots would start coming through, and I would feel like my secret is gonna be revealed, so I need to wear a hat, or a bandana, or a headscarf to try and cover the roots until my next dye day.

And I planned my social life around my roots as well. I mean, it just seems insane that I lived like that for almost 20 years.

Helen: That's not unusual. I've heard lots of people talk about that. If they had a big event coming up, or if they were going for a job interview, or whatever, then they had to have their hair done.

Mia: Yeah.

Helen:  immediately.

Mia: And it wasn't for me, it wasn't like, I think it's fine if you dye your hair 'cause, it makes you feel good. For me it was just literally about how society might perceive me as being old. And I didn't want that. I had a lot of pressures. So initially it was, I was one of the oldest mums in the friendship group, and I was like, you know, obviously had a little hang-up about that.

But then it became about the workplace and, you know, me being one of the oldest in the office, everything becoming digital, and I was kind of Analog. And, you know, I just didn't wanna stand out as being the old woman in the office. 

I also was single for much of my 40s in the run-up to me stopping dyeing at age 50. So, you know, there was that too. I was like, how do you navigate dating with grey hair? 

As I say, I like to think things have moved on a little bit since then. We are talking like, you know, I suppose 2010 to 2016, round about then, where I felt this enormous pressure.

Helen: What was the trigger for deciding to stop dyeing it?

Mia: I just got fed up. I got fed up. I think I was perimenopausal as well, and I think, it was just another pressure. I was perimenopausal, it was undiagnosed, so you know, once I got the diagnosis, I kinda got to grips with it, and it wasn't such a nightmare. But I felt like I was falling apart anyway.

Then there was this ridiculous thing I had to do every two weeks to try, and cover up my greys. Both my daughters hated it, the dye, you know? There was a trend at the time with them, with their age group were dyeing their hair a platinum colour. So, a lot of their friends were doing that. And so, they loved the silver, and they were like, "Why don't you just let it go?"

It was probably about a year of them saying that to me. And then I had an operation. I had to have six weeks to recover from the op, and I thought, "I'm just gonna let it go during the six weeks where I don't really have to go out and about, and see what happens, and see if I can get past the awkward stage, of growing it out."

And I did, and I didn't realize it at the time, but it was just this beginning of a journey of just deciding, oh, challenging society, but also my own inner ageist that I didn't even realize was living in my head. You know, like I just accepted that that's what we do. You know, you get grey hairs, you cover it up.

All the ads tell you to do that. You know, they brag about being 100% grey coverage, and you're like, "Okay." You know? "That's great, I'll do that." You don't challenge it. You don't think. I hope people do more so now, but back then you just got on with it, and it was just what people did. You know, what women did.

As we were saying earlier, you know, that men get to be silver foxes. I've coined the phrase silver vixen because I think, that's quite a nice term. Do you know what I mean? We don't have that luxury of being seen to be, you know, I suppose sexy or attractive. Desirable is the word I'm looking for, actually. You know, it's not seen to be desirable for women, once you go grey. So, I think we deserve a name as well, so we could be silver vixens.

Helen: Cool. So, you told me it was 2016 when you decided to go grey, and I'm assuming you just went cold turkey, and stopped dyeing, so you had quite a significant line?

Mia: I did, yeah. The demarcation was, yeah, that was evident. And, until it got past a certain length, and it looked intentional, it was very tricky. It was tricky throughout the whole two years, actually. 'Cause I was dyeing it dark, so the mark was, what we call the skunk mark, you know.

And then I bleached it, to try and blend it. And it went bright orange. And then I had to get that toned down. So, I did have blonde hair at the ends for much of the two-year journey to try and blend it a little bit. 

But it was in really poor condition. I felt highly unattractive for two years. And I hid it for much of it, you know, under caps, and scarves, and whatever else.

Helen: What sort of reaction did you get from people when you decided to grow it out?

Mia: During the journey it wasn't good. I don't think one friend commented on it. Like, I don't recall anyone sort of saying to me, "Oh, are you letting your hair grow," or anything. I think they just were, like, just judgemental. I think the silence said a lot. 

My daughters cheered me on. They were my biggest support. I don't think I would have lasted the two years without them, to be honest. 

And just in general, I mean, yeah, I think a lot of people just didn't get it. They just didn't get it. As I say, it was 2016, and there was no reference. There was no online support. There was no community online at that time, not that I was aware of anyway. And I felt very, very lonely doing it.

Helen: I think Lockdown obviously a load of people went grey, because we actually stopped the hamster wheel and went, "Why am I doing this?"

Mia: Yeah, yeah. That's what I did. That was part of my process as well, that thought. Like, why am I doing this? It's not serving me. I'm stressed most of the time, and I don't look good. I don't feel good even when it's dyed. You know, like, I feel like a fraud. Like, why am I doing this? 

And you know, during the journey, there was just this unveiling of me. It just felt like this is me in my entirety. You know, it felt like I was emerging during those two years. And by the time I got to the end of it, the response was, phenomenal on the streets. My daughters liken it to walking down the road with a puppy, and everybody stopping to say something nice, you know?

I got, like, literally 10 compliments just walking down the road. Mostly from young women, I have to say. The younger generation loved it. I don't get that as much anymore, 'cause it's not such a phenomenon, I don't think. You know, back then, 10 years ago, it really was. Multiple compliments a day, and I was like, "Okay, well, this feels good."

It's not just I'm getting external validation. It's more like I just feel this is me. This is who I am. Do you know what I mean? And I'm walking down the road just being myself, and having such a positive impact, it's enough for people to want to say something kind. And then I felt, you know, the kindness that they were giving me was just exuding out of me, and there was just this real nice exchange.

And I just felt like I'd arrived. It was just a really lovely feeling. And it was all to do with me just challenging my own inner ageism, questioning why I was doing it, understanding why I was doing it, being kinder to myself as well. Because, you know, it wasn't a happy time when I was dyeing my hair. And all of it just culminated in this kind of sense of self and living in my authenticity, which fed into all aspects of my life in the end.

Helen: Why did you decide to set up the Instagram page?

Mia: I set up my Instagram page purely because I was a disgruntled consumer. At that time, it was 2020, I was 54, and I had been over 40 for 14 years, feeling overlooked by beauty and fashion brands. And I was like, "Right, I'm not gonna leave it to the gatekeepers. I'm gonna set up my own platform.

We're gonna have our own little shop where I target my demographic in a language that is kind, and nice, and is not stereotypical. We're gonna have authentic representation on my platform, and a space for us." That's what I thought I was going to do. That was my only intention when I set up my Instagram page, was just to, find firstly if there was a community.

So, my intention was that, and I thought that would take about five years to build my platform. But I thought, "I'm going to go on social media and see that there's an appetite for this first, and find out if other women feel overlooked." And as you say, it was Lockdown, 2020, and there were women documenting their silver hair journey.

I had no idea. Mine was full silver by then. I'd already been silver four years, so it didn't even occur to me. I had no idea that there was a community there. But I very quickly connected with these women that weren't able to get to the salon, and were documenting their silver hair journeys.

And it was fantastic, 'cause most of them were a similar age to me. Most of them were over 40. And so, what I was saying was resonating. So, I quickly connected with a couple of thousand women. And I think their thing was that I had the full-length hair, so they could see, you know, where they were heading. So, there was a beautiful exchange of kind of support, and camaraderie. 

And then within four weeks I got scouted by four model agencies. And so going public with my Instagram page just completely changed my direction. Because when Was asked to do the modelling, my immediate response, because I'm not comfortable in front of the camera, never have been, always been camera shy. The only photos that there are of me are either with my hand in my face covering up, or just looking really awkward. Because all my friends that I've had for, you know, since I was a teenager will tell you I run away from cameras. 

So, my immediate response was, firstly, they haven't seen me, they've just seen my Instagram, so they don't know that I'm not 6'0", and I'm not slim. You know, that was my first thought. And then secondly was there's no way I can do this. I'm mad camera shy, super camera shy. And then my third thought was, "Mia, you have to say yes." You know, this is an opportunity to be visible, to represent in the way that you're complaining doesn't exist.

And so yeah, I said yes. My daughters were like, "You have to do it." And I was also in a saying yes phase anyway. But had the modelling come at any time in my life previously, I would've said no. I would've turned it down. It was purely because it has purpose, and it's important that we see women that look like us in spaces that have been previously reserved for those that don't look like us.

So, yeah, I said yes, and I've been doing that ever since. And then by default became a content creator, and I've used that platform to be visible and vocal about ageism. 

And also, brand consultations. I consult with brands, beauty brands predominantly, about how they can talk to our demographic in a non-fearmongering way, in a way that is, kind about ageing. I do panel talks about this as well. So yeah, it's kind of become a multi-pronged activism that I now do. 

But the overarching thing is always about visibility, age inclusion,] challenging ageism, whether that be external, societal or internal, you know. Because I think we all have ageist bias, and I think we all need to work on that, you know?

Helen: How do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Mia: I feel at the moment grateful, like really grateful for life, grateful for longevity, grateful for health, grateful for mobility, grateful... I think gratitude goes a long way. And I think I really had to intentionally change my mindset, because I was so ageist, without realizing it.

You know, this whole thing of in my 40s, trying to hold on to my youth, trying to hold on to my relevance, you know? For me it's an inside job. It really is. The minute I let go of all of that, the minute I stopped dyeing my hair, was when I let go of the fear of ageing.

I wrote on my bio for a period of time, “My battle with ageing was won when I stopped fighting." And I think that kind of says it all. It really was this letting go. No more fighting. I'm just gonna go with it. And the battle was over then, and there's just a calmness, and a peacefulness.

Yeah, I'd say that's where I'm at. My head is very much in the now, finding joy, finding what makes me happy. I think there are so many positives to this time in life that we don't talk about enough. I posted recently about the sense of peacefulness that comes with this time in life. And I think a lot of that comes from a sense of accomplishment, of the things that you've achieved, but also the things that you've survived as well. They're so key. 

You know, like I'm so proud of myself for getting through some of the, can I say shit?

Helen: You can.

Mia: Getting some of the shit I've been through, you know? I've had a tough old life. And I feel so proud that I'm here. I think I exude that, and you know, I like to think people see that in me.

I know that a lot of younger women follow me and, you know, I think it's almost 50/50 with women that are much younger. But the women that are younger often DM me. I get emotional because some of the messages that I've had have been so lovely. Like, just I've helped take the fear out of ageing away for them.

And if I'd have had that in my 40s, 'cause I really struggled in my 40s, I would've not wasted that decade just stressing about where I'm gonna fit in, in society. And how I'm gonna be viewed. And whether my skill set was valued, or not. You know, all these things. 

It's not even just about aesthetics. A lot of it is about where you fit in. Like, what's your relevance? What's your identity? So many women lose it, and I talk to women in their 30s and they're struggling with that. You know? 

Or worried that they haven't achieved enough by a certain age, you know? There's so much pressure, and I think if I'm helping to alleviate somebody of that, then I'll keep showing up.

Helen: Good. How about looking forward? So, my ambition, my Mum is 90, and she lives independently. And I'm like, "I wanna be her."

Mia: Oh, I love that.

Helen: So, I'm doing all like the gym stuff, and the yoga, and the running. Are you doing any of that kind of stuff?

Mia: I'm just coming out of injury, so I've always taken care of myself in the sense that, I don't eat badly. You know, I eat quite well. I move my body. I've gone through phases of, you know, sometimes I'll go full on, and then come away from it, and not do as much. So, I get bored quite easily, so I'm not that consistent with one type of exercise.

I had a fractured ankle, and then I had a frozen shoulder, which was excruciatingly painful. I've just come out of that, and I have discovered reformer Pilates, which has really helped. I love to cycle. I've cycled for years. I mean, exercise for me has to be fun.

Back in the day, it was all about no pain, no gain. And I think it needs to be joyful, so I dance in my living room quite frequently. And just movement, just joyful movement I think is really important. So yeah, cycling, I do gym, and I do reformer Pilates, and I walk loads. I love to walk in nature.

My diet's okay. I enjoy food. I'm a foodie, so I do enjoy food, you know. It's not just fuel to me. But I do keep moving. Yeah, I like to move, and take care of myself.

Helen: Back to a hair question. How have you found the condition of your hair now compared to when you dyed it?

Mia: Ooh, when I look back at photos, I didn't realize it at the time, it was very dry with the dyeing. So, it's definitely in better condition now, for sure. It's thinner. That's the only thing that I don't like about my hair at the moment. With ageing, it's got thinner. But the condition and the texture is much nicer than it was when I was dyeing it. Yeah. 

As I say, I didn't realize it at the time, but it looks so dry when I look back at photos. And also, just so unnatural, like it was so obvious it wasn't my natural hair colour. I don't know who I thought I was kidding.

Helen: Are you using any special shampoos and conditioners to look after it?

Mia: Not particularly, no. I don't use purple shampoos. On the odd occasion I do, there's one brand that I particularly like. I probably use it once a year. I do use toning drops if it's ever yellowing, which happens sometimes. But I'm just really careful with it. I'm really careful, like I don't go in the sun with it very much. I wouldn't have my hair in the sun too much in case it yellows. 

What else do I do? I also, if you're salt and pepper, if you've still got some darker hair, when blow-drying it, the white hair dries much more quickly. That's what I've noticed. The darker hair takes longer to dry, and so I try my best not to use heat too much, and let it dry naturally as much as possible. Because otherwise you can over-dry the silvers by trying to dry the darker ones.

What else? Yeah, I try not to use too much heat. I do blow-dry it straight sometimes. I use a conditioner, like just a deep conditioning treatment once a week as well. And that's it.

Helen: That's fairly similar to me. I find the whole purple shampoo thing quite fascinating, 'cause some people swear by it,

Mia: Yeah.

Helen: and then, others like you and me are like, "I don't really do it."

Mia: No, I don't. If it's yellowing, which has happened before, 'cause I put product in my hair. Because I've got curly hair, I have to put product in it to kind of manipulate the texture. And if I've been using, and there's a build-up of product, it can yellow a little bit. So, I will use these natural toning drops that I've got, which are amazing to kind of get rid of that yellowing.

But other than that, no. I like my natural colour. What I found when I did experiment with purple dyes was it affected the colour. Like, it just looked... It didn't look natural to me. So yeah, unless there's yellowing, I'm not bothered about that at all.

Helen: Would you say your style has changed in terms of the make-up, and the clothes that you wear, since you went grey?

Mia: So, my make-up, I never used to wear make-up, and I've started experimenting with it more. And I think that's more because the work that I do, I've been exposed to it, and I just have fun with make-up now. But it's something I never did when I was younger. I never wore make-up. So I would say yes, things have changed in terms of make-up.

What else? And my clothing style hasn't changed, no. It definitely hasn't changed as I've aged. I would say that there are certain things that complement my new body shape more. So maybe I've changed the way I wear something, if that makes sense. 

My style hasn't changed in that I know what I like. It might have changed in terms of, my body changing, and there's certain things that maybe I would wear differently. Like, I might tie a shirt, tightly round the waist so I get a cinched waist. But then when I think about it, I did that before anyway, so scrap that. 

Okay, let me answer the question again. Has my style changed? No, my style hasn't changed particularly. I would say I'm more experimental with clothing, sorry, with colours. 

Helen: Yeah.

Mia: Yeah, I feel like maybe that's what's changed. The silver hair looks amazing with colours that I hadn't ever worn before, like a pink, I was never a pink girl. Whereas I would wear pink now with the silver hair. I think that's probably it, just leaning into brighter colours that work with my silver hair.

Helen: A question about dating. A lot of women worry that if they go grey, they'll be completely unattractive to men, and so if they're single, it's a reason not to. Has that been your lived experience?

Mia: Okay, so that's a loaded question in the sense that I've had lots of experiences. That sounds awful. No, I've had experiences. So, I was exactly the same. One of the things that kept me dyeing my hair was I thought I would look really unattractive to the male gaze. Once I got my head around that, and didn't care anymore, and just owned it, a lot of men would compliment me on the street.

But men my age did it more in a sort of respectful way, like, you know, it wasn't about them finding me attractive, it was more like, "I respect you for doing that," kind of thing. Embracing it, and being yourself, yeah. I think men my age, in my age group, don't find it attractive. Don't find it desirable. 

I think they are caught up in their own ageism, whereby they think grandma, they think mum, they think sister, but they don't think there's a hot woman, you know? I honestly do think that. Obviously, there's exceptions to the rule, and I've met men that do. But I think generally speaking, I think they've got some work to do in terms of their own inner ageism.

But young men love it. That's been my experience. Like, that has been who I've attracted in recent years. I've done posts about this because I think what's going on with younger men is they find it refreshing to see a woman in her entirety. You know, not using filters, not having whatever younger girls are doing these days. You know, the fake lashes, and all of that. 

So, I think, they think it's attractive. So, I've been told. But I've spent the last four years single because I really would like to meet somebody my age, and I just haven't been successful with that. 

But there's no shortage of young men, which is crazy. Which is absolutely crazy. I think they don't hold the same ageist views, old-fashioned ageist views that men of my generation do. I think women will have a better time of ageing with the younger generation of men, because I think they're more open to it. 

I mean, I know what work it took for me to come through my own inner ageism, so I'm not mad at men that feel like that. They just haven't done the work.

Helen: Yeah. I think, you only have to look at like my grandmother, when she was my age, she was nothing like I am now. She had done that, right, I'm fading into the background. My hair's silver, I've got my flat shoes, and my kilt, and me mac, and

Mia: Yeah. Yeah. Go on. Sorry, I interrupted you.

Helen: No, that's kind of, I was just thinking. I don't feel like I've changed, like in terms of things like style, and in terms of my attitude to exercise. Again, 'cause it's like people are like, "Well, people, you slow down when you get older." It's like, "Well, no, I've got no plans to do that, thank you."

Mia: Yeah, yeah. I'm exactly the same. I don't know what generation you are. Are you Gen X as well?

Helen: I just creep into it. Yeah, I'm 61, so yes.

Mia: Okay, same. So, you're 1965? 

Helen: Yeah.

Mia: Yeah, same as me. Same as me. I just creep into it as well. 

I just think that we're so fortunate to have social media, as a tool to kind of, change perceptions, to show as an alternative to the stereotypes. Like, the next generation are so fortunate, to be able to look to us, and see something different.

For you and I, all we ever saw was the stereotypical, you know, anybody that was middle-aged that was on a comedy show was a battleaxe, or they were really eccentric. So there were two styles of clothing that you went down, it was either, you know, twinset and pearls, the kilt, and the pearl set, or it was really eccentric, and loud, and Iris Apfel-esque.

And I think that's all we ever saw. There was never any diversity other than that in terms of the media. No representation that was ever appealing in any way to me. And that's part of what the fear was, you know? I don't wanna be in that, or I don't wanna fade into the background, and just be one of those two.

I totally get the eccentric, flamboyant thing, because you wanna be visible. They were being rebellious, and not fading into the background. And then there was the twinset and pearls, which was, you know, sort of dressing a bit like prim and proper. That's all we really had.

And I think now the next generation, you know, there's so much more for them. With social media, they can see what their future selves could be, and I know this from the messages that I get from younger women, you know? I can see my future, and it's bright, is a comment that I get regularly on my page, and it's just lovely. Because yeah, I think they'll grow older in a kinder space than we did.

Helen: One last question then. If someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," would you have any hints or tips for them?

Mia: Tap into why you ever dyed it in the first place, I think is a good place to start. Like, just challenge or question why are you dyeing it? 

Give not dyeing it a go. Put no pressure on yourself. You know, if you do decide to go back to the dye because it makes you feel good, then it's not your time yet. But I think the thing is just to listen to why you dye it. Check in with yourself as to why you dye it. Are you dyeing it because you're not challenging society's expectation of you?

Are you dyeing it because you are ashamed? Like I was, of, you know, showing that you're older because of how society might perceive you? Are you feeling brave enough to go for it? But don't put any pressure on yourself. I think the big thing is to not feel pressured. I think you can enjoy the transition now. 

I don't think you could when I was doing it, but I think you can enjoy it now. I think people know that it's intentional these days. And yeah, most people are intrigued by it in a way that is not judgmental, I think. I might be wrong, but I think it's really changed since I did it 10 years ago. I don't think it's as radical an act as it was then. I like to think so, anyway.

I see women all the time. I never used to, and I see women all the time now. And there was a period where I started to see women with silver hair, and there would be a little acknowledgement. When I first did it, I didn't see many people. And then there was a phase of other women, "Oh, you're doing it too," and there'd be, like, a little hi, or an acknowledgement. 

And then now, we don't say anything to each other, and it's like, okay, so this is just normal. You know? And that's as it should be. It's not a big deal. It's just hair that grows naturally from your scalp, you know? That we've been taught to be ashamed of. And it's normal and it's natural, and let's just kind of free ourselves of any kind of patriarchal expectations.

Helen: Well, that sounds like a good note to leave it for me. So, thanks so much for joining me. I've really enjoyed chatting to you.

Mia: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I've enjoyed being here. Thank you, Helen.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week.