Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Meg McKeen. She's a speaker, podcaster, entrepreneur, and community builder with 26 years in the insurance industry. Meg's relationship with change has evolved as she has, whether that means leaving corporate America, selling her home, and travelling full-time, or embracing her silver hair.

 Hello, Meg. How are you?

Meg: Oh, Helen, I'm doing great. I've been looking forward to, with such good anticipation, this conversation with you. Thank you for having me.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Meg: Oh, my goodness. I had the most lovely strawberry blonde hair as a very young girl, and then as I got older, as our bodies do, it changed and settled into kind of a dark, brown I would say. But I long for that strawberry blonde that I was when I was a little girl. It was so beautiful.

Helen: And was your hair long or short?

Meg: Oh gosh, I have experimented with so many different cuts over the years. I would say mostly mid-length, never really long, and super short when I was in college. I played with the pixie cut as a young woman and had it that way, gosh, up until I was about 30. 

I got divorced at 30, and I really started to play with my hairstyle, but also just my look, and my look being a representative of really who I was on the inside. Who I was becoming in that season, and of course my hair was part of that.

Helen: Did you experiment with colouring your hair when you were a teenager?

Meg: Oh, yes. And my dear mother would have some stories to tell you about both the colour on my head, but also the colour that ended up on the bathroom floor and did some damage to the tile. 

And I had a girlfriend in high school, and we had a lot of fun going to the grocery store here in the States and picking out, you know, never anything, super wild, but definitely experimented with lightening, and some highlights, and different things along the way. And really enjoyed that process and embraced that for quite a while.

Helen: And were you still doing that, like, through your 20s?

Meg: Yes and no. You know, the interesting thing, and I think a lot of women who either have embraced their grey or are thinking about it, is our hair colour can be a mystery once we introduce hair dye into the equation. You don't really know what's going on under there. And so, I didn't start doing all-over colour until I was 30, until I got divorced.

But I had experimented with highlights over the years, and so I knew there was some grey in there, but I wasn't totally sure how much. And then when I did the all-over colour, that stayed for a good long while. And then it really was a mystery what was lurking underneath for me.

Helen: Can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Meg: I was at the gym. It was early in the morning before work. I was getting a workout in, and gyms are not known for having the best lighting. And so, I was standing after my shower with my towel around my waist, combing my hair, and I saw this silvery sparkle glitter in the mirror, and I thought, "What? What is that?" 

And I was 21. I was pretty young, all things considered, and I didn't really have a strong feeling about it either way. I've grown up around, what I call beautiful silver sisters. My mother, grandmother, lots of my extended family have embraced their silver over the years. 

And so, I wasn't surprised to see it. But I also wasn't really ready to embrace that that was the season of life I was in at 21. It was too soon for me, as far as I was concerned.

Helen: Did you start getting more fairly quickly, or was it just the odd one?

Meg: It was very gradual. It was very gradual. And then when I started doing all-over colour at 30, from the ages of 30 until 40 more or less, it came in much more quickly. 

And as a lot of women on your podcast have shared, it went from colouring every six weeks at the salon, to every four weeks. And then at the end I was colouring every two and a half weeks at home, because frankly, I didn't have the time or the budget to sit at the salon, as often as I needed to in order to keep those roots covered.

Time was running out as far as how long I was gonna be able to convince the world that I had a jet black bob, and not the silver that was underneath. And it was frustrating how it seemed like my roots would always show at just the least opportune time. It was right before a big event, or a presentation at work.

And so, I would be frantically colouring my hair the night before to try to get it, you know, get it just so, so I could keep up the illusion.

Helen: And were you very conscious of the roots then?

Meg: Very, very. Yes. And it wasn't that I didn't want people to know. I think based on the colour, at that point I was dyeing my hair almost a jet black, I think most people knew that that wasn't my real colour. But to me it was more of a, I wanted to project this image to the world that I was always put together, that I always had my I's dotted and my T's crossed.

So, my clothes were always pressed, and my belt matched my shoes, which matched my handbag. And I took that very seriously in that season. And so, to me, having my roots exposed was some sort of an indicator that I had, let go of some societal norm or expectation that I was trying to keep up. 

I don't feel that way anymore, but that was definitely a season of, trying to keep up that impression.

Helen: Mm-hmm. So, you just felt a bit messy if you didn't?

Meg: Definitely. Yeah, definitely messy. That's a great way to put it.

Helen: Yeah, I always look back now and go, "I can't believe the amount of time I had low grade to medium grade root stress for all those years." 'Cause you'd always dye it and it would look fine, and then probably within a week or so you'd start to get that little twinkle. And because most people have the white hair at the front.

Meg: Yeah, I definitely did. 

Helen: Your very conscious of it.

Meg: Mm-hmm. I was. And it's interesting kind of flashing forward, I was on a three-week European adventure. And I spent the first week solo. And I was in a different relationship then, but the last two weeks of the trip, my then partner joined me.

And keeping in mind this is a three-week trip, I colour my hair every two and a half weeks, and so I had to decide, am I bringing the hair dye with me to Italy, or am I gonna let it go? 

And so by the very end of the trip, all the selfies, all the pictures, you can see the sparkle of my root line, because I ended up not bringing the hair dye, because I just thought, " that is so ridiculous.” It is so over the top to be dyeing my hair on vacation or to try to find a salon locally that could do it for me. 

And that ended up being, and I didn't know it at the time, but the last time that I would colour my hair. I don't wanna say I let it go, I don't like that language, but I decided to embrace it after that trip.

Helen: And why was that? What was the trigger?

Meg: Well part of it, huge part of it, that relationship ended right after that trip. There was a six-week period, my grandmother, who I consider my OG, the original silver sister in my life, passed away. That romantic relationship ended. And I had also about a year prior started the business that I now run.

And so, I was going through, to say a transition is just a total understatement, but in so many corners of my life, I was rediscovering, and welcoming a new version of myself. And a lot of what I talk about in my business is authenticity, and alignment, and living in your values, and knowing what those are. 

And I felt like a bit of an imposter, or a fraud. Every time I would slather this black tar on my head, I kept thinking, "Who am I kidding?" Like, "Who am I fooling? This isn't who I am at my core." And I say this with so much love. I talk often, and regularly about my decision to embrace my grey. But never with judgment for a woman who chooses to keep her hair colour whatever it happens to be at that time. 

I think it's a beautiful time in our society and in our world where either is a fair choice. And it really is up to you what's right for you. And what is right for you in this season may change. And I love that too, that we're evolving and we're allowed to change course. But in that moment, I thought, " what would happen?"

I mean, I think I knew in my heart that I would always end up embracing it. I just didn't know when, and that happened to be my moment. And did a little bit of research and, you know, lots of women go grey after illness, and they lose their hair through chemotherapy or some other sort of medical condition. And that wasn't the case for me.

I'm not the type of woman who would shave my head, and go, you know, kinda start from a clean slate. That was too much transition for me all at once. So, I decided to go cold turkey, as they say, and just stop dyeing it, and get some regular cuts. And see what would happen. And really embrace the learning, and the understanding about myself, and other people through that process, so.

Helen: Okay, so you were dyeing it black.

Meg: Yes.

Helen: You must have had a proper skunk stripe then through the grow out?

Meg: Oh, my goodness. It was one of my favourite stories to tell. So, I was not one of the women that embraced her grey during the Pandemic, but I was pretty early in my process when Lockdown started. And so, I did do a lot of that transitioning in private. 

But I do remember a day, I was living in Chicago at the time, and I loved their public transit system. And so I was on the train, and I was going from point A to point B. and I had a hat on 'cause it was cold, it was wintertime. And I peeled my hat away, and this little boy and his mom were sitting across from me on the train, and the child gasped when he saw my hair, because it really did look like a skunk.

And I think in his little kid brain, he was thinking, "What is this woman that looks like a skunk? And, you know, what is happening here?" And that was just a fun, kinda tender moment where I realized, oh, right, this thing is happening. And it's very visible, and people are going to have a reaction to it.

And I anticipated a lot of negativity, that wasn't the case. And maybe people were thinking those thoughts, but they didn't share them with me. But for the most part, I was met with a lot of curiosity, and also a lot of support.

Helen: And how comfortable did you feel with yourself through the various stages of the grow out?

Meg: Well, I think and I believe and life, and all sorts of things have given me evidence that we build our confidence as we go. We don't wake up one day and feel confident. It's the actions we take, and the choices that we make along the way. And so, I felt like I was building confidence as I was going with the process.

And so, any time I would be getting ready to go out to meet a friend for a safe distance picnic in the park, I would think, "Should I wear a hat? Should I style it in a way that detracts from the line, or should I just own it?" 

And I think one of the biggest choices that I made was to work with a friend of mine who's a professional photographer, and actually chronicle the process. And so, I had professional headshots done four different times through the process to really show the process. How it looks at all of these stages. And that you can still be professional while you're transitioning. You can still be hireable. 

You know, I'm a speaker and a coach. And I was speaking on stages in front of groups with my skunk line, if you will. And I don't know that there's a more deliberate expression of a woman in transition, than to be standing on stage for everyone to see in that vulnerable way. 

But it has opened up so much beautiful conversation with women in the community that I work in. And some of them aren't ready. And some of them are in it right now. And I get to see their own progress photos. And it's really neat to be in this season, both showing other women what's possible, and that it isn't the death of your career, or the death of your relationship.

And maybe it is. I mean, for some women they're not partnered with people who are supportive. I happened to meet my partner as I was fully transitioned. He is also silver, and went grey at a very young age. And so we're a very confusing couple for a lot of people, because we're 47. We don't fit a lot of stereotypes about people, quote unquote, "that have grey hair," and yet we do, and we own it.

So, it's been a really interesting unravelling of who I was. And I won't even say who I have become, because I'm still becoming, and I think that's the beautiful part of it.

Helen: Would you say you're more comfortable with yourself before, or now?

Meg: Oh, now. Now for sure. And I do think, again, the hair is part of it, but it's a very outward representation. You know, at the same time, when I was dyeing it jet black, I had it styled in a very sleek, kinda chin-length angled bob. And I wore it that way for years. And so, I kind of became known in my circle of friends as Meg with the jet black bob. That was kind of the nickname. 

And so, one of the other things when it was transitioning, and as I've embraced the grey, is I've let it be in a much more, I'll say, natural state. And so, I will wear it wavy. I will let it air dry. It's a little longer than I would've typically worn it. And so it really is a freeing in a way, which is such a interesting thing to say because you know, it's just hair. 

Why do we put so much emphasis on hair? But it is such a creative expression for us. And you had a woman on your show previously who talked about that, that her hair was a creative outlet for her. And I really loved that because a lot of us, particularly the women in insurance that I work with, we are expected or presumed to look a certain way, and to present a certain way. And it confuses people when you decide to upset that norm.

And so, I love this idea that hair colour, the style, our clothes, you know, so many different things that we choose about our appearance, can be a creative outlet, and a reflection of who we are on the inside.

Helen: I was gonna ask you that as well, actually. So, has your make-up, and the types of clothes that you wear, also changed following the transition?

Meg: Yeah, it's interesting. So, you shared in my Bio, and it's worth sharing a little bit more, I think, is five years ago, I left Chicago where I was living at the time. And I sold my home, and all my things, and I started to travel full time. 

And in doing so, I let go of 95% of the clothes that I had. And it also made sense, because I wasn't working in a corporate environment anymore, so I didn't need the suits and the heels and all of those things. But when essentially your wardrobe fits in a carry-on suitcase, you have to be really thoughtful about the pieces you take with you.

And so, I found myself gravitating towards things that always fit well, which has always been important to me. I wanna dress for the shape of my body. But being a little less concerned about the curation of it all. And so, I put outfits together now that seven years ago I never would have put together.

And part of it is necessity. I have one pair of jeans. I have a couple tops. So therefore, they have to work together. And that's been really, you know, you think that, that having more choice is abundance. But for me, it's been having fewer choices has opened up a whole lot more creativity. And taking chances with my appearance. Because I only have what I have in front of me to choose from.

Helen: I can kind of understand that. So, I left corporate, I'm trying to think, 2018. And it's taken a very long time to let go of all the clothes, even though they sit in my wardrobe 

Meg: Yeah.

Helen: And go nowhere. And I'm like, I have nowhere where I would wear a fitted dress anymore, 'cause that's just not what my life looks like. But you're kind of a little bit psychologically attached to them, and I guess 'cause you are travelling, you just didn't have that choice.

Meg: No, but it was a hard, it was about six weeks that I spent cleaning out my condo, and making those choices. And it was heavy, and I was overwhelmed, and I had many moments where I sat down in my empty dining room on the area rug that was left and shed some tears about the choice I was making. 

And, you know, memories, I believe, live in our hearts. They live in our brains. But for a lot of us, memories live in our stuff. And so, letting go of these things that were so symbolic of who we were at that time is deeply sentimental. And I really respect that. 

You know, five years later, I have perspective. One of the most common questions that I get is, "Do you have any regrets? What have you let go of that you wish you had kept?" And even five years later, none of it. There hasn't been a time when I have longed for whatever that thing was that was hanging in my closet all those years ago. 

And I think that's because as humans doing what humans do, we are on our journeys. And we're having and collecting experiences. And some of them are really hard. And some of them we would like to skip over. And sometimes we would like to do them over. But for the most part, these experiences change us, and they shape us into who we are in this moment. 

And so going back, and putting on a suit that doesn't fit anymore, or squeezing my toes into high-heeled shoes that I hated wearing. Even though I liked how they made my legs look. Even though I felt tall and powerful when I put them on. They hurt my feet.

And I remember at the end of every day coming home, and taking them off. And just feeling so relieved that I could take them off. And now the idea of squeezing my little toes into shoes like that, it's a metaphor, but it's so much more than that. I don't wanna try to squeeze myself into places, and shapes, that don't fit me as I am.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Meg: If that makes sense.

Helen: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So, moving away from society's expectations to what you wanna do?

Meg: Yeah. And in so many ways I've done that, and I feel like my grey hair is just another layer. You know, the decision to leave as a single woman who's the sole provider, I don't have children, and so everything falls on my shoulders. To leave, quote unquote, "the steady, regular corporate life". And try to build a business on my own. 

To leave a marriage that looked good on the outside, but didn't feel good in my body. To travel the way that I have. To leave the only home that I had known in adulthood that was mine and mine alone, to leave that for a series of unknown adventures.

I mean, it really has become, to me, the evidence that I can take risks. And the risks that I take are not the worst decisions ever, which is often where my catastrophe brain will go, always thinking the worst-case scenario. But there's a lot of evidence that the opposite is true, and I think that's true for a lot of us.

And I hope a woman who's sitting on her decision whether she should or shouldn't, , embrace her grey is asking the question if she could or couldn't, rather than should or shouldn't, because that's the internal work, I think.

Helen: How did people react when you said you were gonna go grey?

Meg: A lot of pauses. A lot of, you know, kind of waiting for me to react. And I think that was the information I needed right out of the gate, is that people are looking for a reaction. And so, if I had said, "I'm thinking about letting my hair go. What do you think?" people would've given me an opinion. 

Or if I had said, "I'm not really sure." Maybe I was six weeks in, and it really just looked like I needed a touch-up at that point. And so, if I had said, "I don't know. I'm really uncomfortable. I'm really embarrassed. I'm thinking about it all the time. I'm really in my head about it," people would've met me with all sorts of, "Well, you could just go colour it." Or they would've come back with anything that suited whatever energy I was projecting to them.

But I chose, for the most part, a sense of confidence in the decision. Not necessarily confidence in total yet. I didn't have that at that point. But that if I live to be 100, this is about 1%, 1.5% of my lifetime, and could I be uncomfortable for 1.5% of my life? In order to potentially have an outcome that's even wilder than I thought it could be.

And so, I made peace with that. It's a moment in time. It may come again if I decide to colour it. I won't, I don't imagine in this lifetime. But if a woman did, it really is a short moment in time. And it taught me a lot about standing in my truth, and owning what's right for me, regardless what society and the individuals, around might think.

I didn't really have anyone ever outwardly challenge, with the couple exceptions professionally, that I was ageing myself unnecessarily. And ageism is a very real thing, particularly in the insurance industry. 

And so, you know, if you're trying to project yourself as someone who is forward-thinking, and progressive, and, you know, wants to meet a young woman in the industry where she is. What are you doing? And what are you projecting? If you have grey hair. That's a sign of ageing, and, you know, are you kinda shooting yourself in the proverbial foot there? 

And I just believed how could a woman ever see that it's possible if someone doesn't show you that? I'm certainly not the only woman that does what I do, or works in the industry that I serve with grey hair by any means. But it was a very deliberate choice, and also something I'm really glad that I didn't apologize for, but I really owned as part of my professional story, too the discomfort, and that kind of awkward in-between phase.

Helen: I'm guessing you had good and bad days during the grow out in terms of how you felt about it. What did you say to yourself on the bad days?

Meg: It's a moment in time. You know, my own kind of version of this too shall pass. I don't know how sentimental to get and how deep to go with you. But, you know, I left a marriage that wasn't right for me. And I left jobs that weren't right for me. And I left situations, friendships, relationships with other people that weren't right for me.

And when you know what you need, and you start to build your self-advocacy muscle, you care a lot less, and are influenced a lot less by what the people around you think. 

And so I remember getting ready for a more formal event, and thinking, "There's just no way around what's going on in my head." And I had bought some root touch-up spray that I never ended up using, but it was like my emotional support aerosol can on the bathroom counter, that I knew it was there if I needed it.

And I just remember thinking, "This is just an outward expression of all of the change and transition that I have been in," at that point for 10 years of my life. And really my whole life, if you think about it. A lot of us have been fighting, and clawing to be who we are from day one, but there's all sorts of external forces that are convincing us, for good reason, that maybe that's not a good idea.

And so, I had hard days. And it more had to do with, "This is just inconvenient. I don't want this attention being paid to me in this way at somebody's wedding, or at a business event. You know, I just wish this wasn't a thing right now. That this wouldn't be a thing that people were thinking about, or somehow making a judgment, or a reflection on me."

But those days honestly were few and far between. I was so pleasantly surprised that it just wasn't as awful as I thought that it would've been, when I started out on my journey.

Helen: Yeah, I think with a lot of people, the thought of judgment is mostly in their heads, 

Meg: Yes.

Helen: rather than what they actually experience. One of my other guests was talking about she was worried that she was gonna ruin people's wedding photos, 'cause she had the stripy hair. And it's like they won't even notice, they're just looking at the bride.

Meg: Yeah. It's interesting, I have a friend who had transitioned, and had, you know, beautiful silver hair, and quite young, all things considered. And then she got engaged, and she got married. And she coloured her hair for the wedding, and so her photos would be the dyed colour. And then literally the day after, she stopped dyeing it again, and she's back to grey.

And I thought, " what an interesting choice," and no judgment. Again, no judgment. But you were grey for a moment in time, and now these pictures are so representative, and they'll be around forever, whatever that means. But then today she is grey again. And I've never asked her what her thought process was, or what her reasoning was. I'm sure it was meaningful, and you know, I know that she put some consideration into that. 

But I believe my grey hair goes with me, and whatever you think about that is okay, because I know that this is the right choice for me in this season.

Helen: Yeah, she is a bit perplexing because he must have fallen in love with her with the silver hair.

Meg: Exactly. Exactly. I don’t know.

Helen: So, she wasn't doing it for him.

Meg: Yeah. I mean, whatever the reasoning, it's not wrong. You know, good for her 

Helen: No, it's a choice

Meg: for doing what's... Yeah, but it's just interesting to me that she went through that process. And she, similar to me, she went cold turkey, and just stopped dyeing it. So, she had a good year and a half, or more of the grow out phase. And so, she lived through that, and then kinda right away went right back to it, so. I don't know. People are interesting, and we're curious, and we're all on our own journeys, so.

Helen: Yeah, I had one guest who's only ever dyed her hair once. And that was because her sister talked her into getting it dyed for her wedding. 

Meg: Yeah.

Helen: So that the photos would be not with grey hair.

Meg: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And like what does grey hair in a wedding photo mean? You know, what does that signify? I don't know. I don't know why we think that that version of you can't be the one that shows up on your wedding day. I don't know. I won't ever know the answer to that. 

But it is interesting to kinda look back, and sit back, and ask some questions about other people, and their thought process. And what I can learn about my own in doing so.

Helen: So, I going to ask you one last question. 

Meg: Yeah.

Helen: If someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," what hints and tips would you have for them?

Meg: It is such a deeply individual process. And I would say to start with curiosity. And I, at the time I was transitioning, I followed some hashtags on Instagram, so my feed was more curated, and I would see women in transition. And I started to talk about it. I didn't shy away from it. I didn't hide it. I started to talk about it in conversation. 

And I think deciding if you're looking for validation, or permission, or if you're looking for support is really important in your process. But a lot of us will say, "Oh, you can always change your mind," and that's true. 

But I think when you know, you know. I think there's a feeling, and I think this is true for women in a wider sense, that I believe in our intuition. I believe in the gut. I believe in the parts of our body that carry our stress, and our joy. And I believe that there is a knowing that many of us have when a chapter has ended. 

And I think many women know, maybe they need the knowing to catch up with the action. But to trust yourself, to trust that this won't be easy, but it could lead to something even more beautiful on the other side than you anticipated. Yeah.

Helen: I think freedom's the word that most people say to me.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I've heard all sorts of uses of the word free in my life. So, because I don't have children, I've been referred to as child-free. Because I'm a traveller full-time, I'm home-free. 

And so, I also think about being dye-free, and being, you know, embracing what is, and there is a freedom that comes with that. I think that's a really beautiful reflection. And it lines up with so many other choices that I've made to embrace what my version of freedom is. And of course, that's different for each of us, and mine comes with a massive amount of privilege as well to be able to live the way that I do, and create the life that I live. 

So, this has been really beautiful.

Helen: Cool. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fab guest. Enjoy the rest of your day

Meg: Thanks for having me.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week.