Helen J: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week, I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Helen Hirsh Spence. She spent her first career in education as a secondary school principal, and the Head of an all-girls school. Her second in not-for-profit work across the World with Jane Goodall and others. And in the past decade became an age provocateur, advancing a new stage of life, elderhood.

Her TEDx talk, "Embrace Age with a Longevity Mindset," garnered more than 100,000 views in its first month. And she recently released a book, "Reset: Making the Most of the Rest of Your Life," which hit the bookshelves in May.

Hello, Helen. How are you?

Helen H S: I'm good, thank you. Far away from you, but I'm fine.

Helen J: Actually, for our listeners, where are you?

Helen H S: So, I'm in Ottawa, Canada. And we just celebrated Canada Day in a torrential, torrential storm, so we're all still recovering with lots of flooding and so on. But I'm fine. Didn't get flooded

Helen J: Ah, whereas I'm in Europe, and obviously we've been having a heatwave

Helen H S: Yeah.

Helen J:  for the last few weeks. 

Right, I am gonna start by asking you, can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Helen H S: Can't remember exactly when, but it would've been in my, late 40s, I believe. Yeah, I remember, I remember spotting it. Yeah. Yeah.

Helen J: And how did you feel about it?

Helen H S: I think ambivalent. I think it reminded me of my mother. My mother's hair turned grey from the temples back, and that's exactly where it was starting to show for me after the first few hairs appeared.

Helen J: Mm-hmm. And what colour was your hair?

Helen H S: It was black. It was really black.

Helen J: So, a very dramatic contrast then?

Helen H S: Yeah, it was a dramatic contrast, yeah. And I remember thinking, "Oh. Hmm. Not sure what I think of this," I remember. 

And I had a new position, I was, the President of the Ontario Principals' Council. That was something that happened between the public school and the independent school, the girls' school. I had a year in a very prominent position, which was very public too, so my face and my picture was in a lot of places.

I think that's when I started realizing, "What does this mean?" So, I was approaching 50 at the time.

Helen J: So, did you start dyeing your hair at that point or not?

Helen H S: Not immediately, but I did start dyeing my hair then after that. 

And I remember that when I did it, I remember going to a place that I thought would do a really good job, and they did, but they also charged a bloody fortune. So, I was some pissed off. 

But because I was still in a public-facing role, 'cause at that time I was the Head of the girls' school, for some reason, and we know what the reason is, ageism, you know, I felt like I needed to continue to dye it.

I remember very distinctly that the person who was doing my hair, and of course it was, you know, self-serving, he said, "You know, Helen, if you let your hair go, you'll look 10 years older immediately." And I remember that very distinctly. And I also remember thinking, "Oh, I don't want that."

Helen J: Did you feel any pressure from other people, other than your hairdresser, to dye your hair, or was it do you think in your head?

Helen H S: No, it was totally in my head. Nobody ever said anything to me about my hair. And for the longest time, I don't think there was that much grey hair to cover, and then it became more obvious. 

But, no, my Husband never said anything, my children never said any, friends never said anything. It was totally internalized ageist bias that I had inherited, over a lifetime, that made me think that I needed to continue to try to look young. Which was a big mistake.

Helen J: How long did you dye it for?

Helen H S: Over 10 years. I stopped dyeing it during COVID. 2020, I stopped.

Helen J: And why did you stop?

Helen H S: Was a good reason to not go to the hairdresser anymore, because it was not really advocated to get out of your house, and interact with others. Here in Canada, we were extremely strict with bubbles, and staying in your bubble. And wearing masks. And, you know, not going out any more than necessary.

And so, it was simple. It was an easy excuse. And of course, as it went on with time, it made a lot of sense. 'cause the grey could grow out easily without looking like, you know, a partially brandished individual. I mean, it looked stark, you know, as it came in. 

I wasn't embarrassed about it, at all. I accepted it. And I thought the timing was great. Because I also, came into my own about that time as well, in terms of recognizing how I had already internalized so much ageist bias, that I wanted to confront. And this was a visual way of confronting it for me.

I had started my new business, which was a social enterprise called Top 60 Over 60. And it was all about advocating for our new reality, which is an older one. And helping people understand how negative the implications are of ageism, not only on us individually, but on us as part of society, and on our economy. 

I wanted to show, and demonstrate what I newly believed in. And so, it was perfect timing.

Helen J: So, before COVID, were you still going to the salon to get it coloured?

Helen H S: Not to the same one, but I was going to somebody to get it coloured, yes.

Helen J: I also let my hair go grey in Lockdown, and talked a lot about kind of being on a hamster wheel in that you just didn't even think about it. You had your hair coloured, you made your next appointment while you were having your hair coloured.

Helen H S: Right.

Helen J: and it was just a complete habit, a complete routine, and you didn't really question it.

Helen H S: No, exactly.

Helen J: COVID was a bit of a breaker in terms of questioning a lot of things that people did really.

Helen H S: For sure. Yeah. I think that was one of the best breakers. And I'm sure it hit the hairdressing industry hard, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for them. Because they're still part of the beauty market that, you know, promotes anti-ageing, which I am dead set against. So, I have no real sympathy, or empathy for that industry at all.

Helen J: So, you basically went cold turkey. 

Helen H S: Yep.

Helen J: You were dyeing your hair black.

Helen H S: Well, it had faded. I have to say that I changed hairdressers over the years, and they did a worse, and worse job. I have very curly hair, extremely curly hair, and most people can't cut it very well. And this person didn't cut it well, and she didn't dye it well. So, it was easier to let her go too, you know? So yes, I did. I just stopped going that's all.

Helen J: And you must have had a very distinct stripe?

Helen H S: Yeah, I still do. I still have very dark hair at the back, and I have lighter hair at the front. And when I pull it back, it looks completely grey and white. But it's really quite dark still underneath. So, yeah. 

It wasn't as dramatic as, Arlene Dickinson, whom you may not know. She's a Canadian. So no, it really wasn't a skunk stripe as much as it was, just really came in white around my face, which made my face look older faster too.

Helen J: Which is a very similar pattern to me actually. 

Helen H S: Yeah.

Helen J: So, my hair's very white at the front, but it's still

Helen H S: Yeah. Yeah.

Helen J: quite dark at the back.

Helen H S: Yeah, exactly. But yours is straight, it looks its length. Mine is so curly, that it looks like it's this long, when it goes down to halfway down my chest, but you'd never know it.

Helen J: How long did your grey out take?

Helen H S: It took a good year. I mean, I have a few pictures of it growing out. I don't remember it growing out, to tell you the truth. I just remember seeing some pictures, because that's when I started also doing podcasts, and doing more visible performances, and speaking, and so on. So, it's those pictures in which I see that it was growing out, but I wasn't really conscious of it that much.

Helen J: Do you think that's because you had already started to challenge ageism?

Helen H S: Yes. Absolutely. I absolutely did. I think, grey hair is probably the largest obsession that we women have as we age as being the demonstrable characteristic of ageing, that we've been taught to dislike. And so I think for sure, it was definitely for me, you know, like a rallying cry saying, "Hey, this is what I represent, and I'm proud of it."

It's just like my age. I'll tell you I'm going to be 77 next week, and I'm very proud of that. Whereas before I probably would never have mentioned my age, but now I think it's important to role model that you can ask women of a certain age how old they are. And they should tell you, because ageing I really see it as a privilege.

It's not easy to age. There's no question about it, there are certain aspects of it that are challenging. Many, in fact, probably more than not. But the reality is that we more or less can come into our own. We can feel freer. We have better judgment, greater perspective. 

We're happier. There's tons of research, and I know this because of the book that I spent, you know, four or five years writing, that indicates that as we get older, we get more self-assured, self-confident. As long as we can confront that internalized age bias that most of us have grown up with.

And I say that certainly in my generation. I think you're younger than me, but my generation, having been born in the 1940s, I mean, that's all I knew up until, you know, the recent 20-teens and so on was, you know, anti-ageing. Everything about skincare, haircare, body care had everything to do with promoting that vision of a youthful, beautiful, flourishing, younger image. And that was what was equated with it. 

So, I'm hoping that young people today don't have as much of a stigma as my generation did, if that makes sense.

Helen J: Yeah, I am a bit younger than you. I'm 61, so I'm not mega young. 

But I think we talked before we started recording about how both of us think that there is so much emphasis on the aesthetics of ageing, 

Helen H S: Right.

Helen J: and avoiding the aesthetics of ageing. And much less emphasis maybe on the things that are gonna help us age well, and age happily.

Helen H S: Yep, exactly. Yeah, I'm very careful about the words that I use about ageing. I don't wanna shame anybody because if they have a disability, or if they have diabetes, or if they have something, it's not their fault that they necessarily have a health condition they have to contend with as well as ageing. You know what I mean? 

So that whole business around ageing naturally, gracefully, positively. Consciously is probably a good way of putting it because it doesn't, present any positive or negative around ageing. But it's a hard one to try to describe. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Helen J: Yeah, I think so. I think basically, the way that I see it is, we can influence the way that we age 

Helen H S: Right.

Helen J: in terms of the movement that we choose to do, how we choose our nutrition, 

Helen H S: Yeah.

Helen J: our social connections, 

Helen H S: Right.

Helen J: all of those things. That's not gonna change underlying medical conditions, in terms of whether you're gonna get them or not. Although it probably will change potentially the outcomes from them.

Helen H S: Exactly. Yeah, and I agree with you. We have a lot of influence over how we age. And that's one of the things that I'm trying to bring to the fore with "Reset: Making the Most of the Rest of Your Life." 

And the biggest thing that we have is our mindset. If we think positively about growing older, and I specifically say growing older as opposed to getting older, I differentiate between the two because I do see it] as a period of growth, of learning, you know, of curiosity, of, you know, experimentation, getting out of your comfort zone.

If we think positively about that next stage of life we grow, we live 7.5 years longer, than if we have a negative mindset. And that was proven by Becca Levy in her study, that covered years and years of research. 

And she's recently come out with something new in 2026, and that is not only, is mindset is significant. But we can also age with greater physical wellbeing, and greater cognitive health, into our later years. Which is something, that has never really been tested, but now it has been, and it's been proven.

Again, with the right attitude and with doing a lot of the right things, as you mentioned, you know, whether it's nutrition, but also challenging yourself, keeping yourself mentally agile, and so on. But because we always thought of ageing as being about decline, fragility, as opposed to growth. That's been the narrative forever, you know? 

And now they're starting to look at other features of ageing, and realizing, oh, people are still cognitively growing into their 80s and 90s. And also, physically more active than perhaps when they were younger. It's fascinating, and it really changes the story about growing older, I think.

Helen J: Yeah. And my ambition is to be like my Mum. So, my Mum is 90. 

Helen H S: Lovely.

Helen J: She lives independently. Still drives. And I'm like, "Yeah, I wanna be like her,

Helen H S: Yeah, I would too

Helen J: 30 years from now."

Helen H S: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I really do see a big difference, to tell you the truth, Helen, between your age, and my age. In my 60s, I could do everything still in very much the same way as I could when I was, you know, in my 40s and 50s.  And I took advantage of it by traveling around the World, and doing a lot of not-for-profit work as you mentioned. 

What I did was I'd find a place I wanted to visit, an example would be India and Bhutan. And I'd find a role to play there. So, in India, I coached a secondary school Principal who had started a, co-ed school. In India, they're mostly boys’ schools, or girls’ schools, and he had a co-ed school. And they were attributing all the mistakes, and all the problems in the school to the girls, and I had to point out to him, "No, actually, you're just being biased."

And then in Bhutan, because I liked climbing and hiking, I got a role with the Ministry of Tourism. And I wrote a guide to a remote region of Bhutan. And I was able to spend almost two months there living as a Bhutanese person, climbing in the villages. And I had a guide, and he translated, and helped me. But it was extraordinary.

But what I always wanted to do was offset my carbon footprint 

Helen J: Yeah.

Helen H S: by, you know, going or doing something unique. And I could do those things still in my 60s. I think I could do them in moderation now, but not to the same extent, simply 'cause I've had two knees replaced too.

Helen J: Okay.

Helen H S: So those kinds of things do happen, you know?

Helen J: Yeah, yeah. My husband is seven years younger than me. So, I've retired, he hasn't. But the plan is when he retires too, we're gonna go backpacking in the Far East. That's the plan.

Helen H S: Women do live longer. And they tend to take care of their health probably better. And they're more social, which is one of the reasons why I think women live longer. I mean, there's a lot of evidence to show that social engagement, is significant in terms of ageing well. When I say aging well, you know what I mean. Doing better later in life. 

Contributing, and purpose is another key factor in growing older. People really need to have a reason to get up in the morning. They need to have meaning in their life. It could be to take care of a cat, or grandchildren, but some people need more than that, you know?

Helen J: Yeah.

Helen H S: But that's a key element of, you know, growing older, and being generative, giving back, and feeling good about being around still in later years.

Helen J: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well. I'm gonna be Run Director at parkrun tomorrow, so I am giving back.

Helen H S: Oh, great. Run Director. Do you run still?

Helen J: Oh yeah. I do, although I have injured my Achilles yet again, this week. But I ran last week. But this week I'm basically organizing the local event for this week.

Helen H S: I had to give up running unfortunately with my knees. But I've gone back to skiing downhill, and cross country. And I swim. I swim distance now. I used to be a competitive swimmer 

Helen J: Yeah.

Helen H S: as a child. I gave it up for, you know, 50 years. But now I find myself swimming distances, not competitive at all.

Helen J: Okay. I do strength training, and I

Helen H S: I do too.

Helen J: recently deadlifted my body weight, so I'm happy with that.

Helen H S: Whoa. That's impressive, Helen

Helen J: and I also do yoga. And walk every day.

Helen H S: Yeah, me too. I have a dog, so I walk six to 10 kilometers a day. I live in the country, so I have a lot of bush behind me.

Helen J: I meet all the dog walkers, and they're always like, "Where is your dog?" It's like, "Nope, don't have one." Like to get outside.

Helen H S: I know, it's good. Where are you in, the UK?

Helen J: I'm Newcastle, Tyne Valley, so in the North East.

Helen H S: So, it's beautiful.

Helen J: It is beautiful, yeah. Yeah.

Helen H S: Okay. I've never been there, but I've heard.

Helen J: Yeah, not far from the coast either, we've got lovely beaches in Northumberland. 

Helen H S: Oh, really? 

Helen J: Yeah.

Helen H S: Oh, lucky you.

Helen J: In terms of ageing well, what advice would you have for people?

Helen H S: I think we've mentioned a lot of it. I mean, all the things that we have under our own control, which has to do with diet, and exercise, and mindset. I would say is the biggest, is to, you know, really work on finding all the things that are positive about growing older, and, you know, focusing on those things. It's all in the book, I have to say. 

Helen J: Yeah.

Helen H S: We have a whole second part of the book that's about practical strategies in which to engage. You know, look for new opportunities. Start being creative in ways that you maybe haven't been before. Step outside your comfort zone. Sleep well if you can. I mean, that's a big one.

And the other thing that I really lament, Helen, is the fact that we as women have been ignored by healthcare systems in the World. You know, going through menopause, you know, perimenopause, menopause, post-menopause, people are talking about it now. Totally missed my generation. Took everybody off oestrogen for about 15 years, when in fact we should've been on it, you know? 

So, women have been ignored in a huge amount of drug trials, as well as ageing trials. So, I'd say that my generation has been greatly disadvantaged, you know, by the healthcare system.

So, I would advocate for women now to ensure that they have, you know, breast cancer tests, and PAP tests, and whatnot. Many of those things were given up for women as they got older, here. I don't know if that's true where you are. But now they're coming back again, because they realize that that was a mistake, but at the expense of a whole generation of women.

Helen J: A slightly different question. How would we go about challenging our inner ageist? ' Cause you kind of said that's where it all started for you.

Helen H S: Well, I think the very first step is to be aware of it, you know? If you hear yourself being critical of the lines you see develop on your face, recognize that that has to do with your inner ageist. If you see your hair going a little bit lighter in certain spots, you know, understand that it doesn't mean it's the end of your life.

Counter that whole belief system. Don't buy anti-ageist creams. Don't support the beauty industry that says that you have to look younger. I mean, I know that there are young women out there today who are doing Botox, and having other work done just so that they can maintain their younger looks. I don't think Botox has been around long enough to know what some of the side effects could be, you know, 50 years from now. 

Not only that, it's something like a $64 billion industry in the United States alone. You know, when we dye our hair, and do anti-aging creams, and lotions, and whatnot, you know, we are supporting the antithesis of what we should be supporting as women.

Helen J: I'm terrified of what in 10, 20 years' time, are all the weight loss drugs going to have done to people's bodies.

Helen H S: Not everybody can be as active as you obviously are, and I am too. So, I do train too. And I have a guy who comes to the house actually, and trains with my Husband and me three times a week. Which is, I want you to know, the biggest luxury I permit myself. It's expensive, but it's an investment in the future. 

And he's very well-versed 'cause a lot of his clients are older, and he says, "You know, you can make magnificent changes at any age. You just have to start." And I really think that that whole fitness needs to be started sooner than later. 

Helen J: One last question. If someone came to you, and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," what hints and tips would you have for them?

Helen H S: I'd say go for it, first of all. And I'd say, you know, embrace it because it's lovely too, and, it's actually become quite fashionable to become grey. So, I would encourage somebody to do that.

Helen J: Thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Helen H S: Thank you so much for inviting me. This has been a pleasure speaking with you.

Helen J: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week