Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week, I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Julie Kelly. She's a 58-year-old mixed media artist living at the North Yorkshire coast. Julie took early retirement from her 35-year career as an NHS occupational health physiotherapist in Oxford. She returned to Yorkshire with her husband, but was sadly widowed last year. 

Hello, Julie. How are you?

Julie: Hello, I'm fine. Thank you.

Helen: I'm gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Julie: It was blonde, and wavy. I was the blonde, blue-eyed, not quite Shirley Temple, but, yeah, wavy, blonde locks. Yeah, definitely.

Helen: And how long was it?

Julie: I've got some horrendous pictures of it scraped back in a bun for ballet. So, it was long enough to get into a bun, so probably shoulder length, I think. I didn't have it any longer than shoulder length, I think.

Helen: Did you keep it like that in your teens, or did you change it?

Julie: Yeah, it was probably like a Bob. Yep. Had some horrendous haircuts, 'cause it was curly, so some end up looking like a poodle, I remember. 

And then at Uni in Birmingham, I think I went to some sort of hairdressing college. 'cause I remember hours sat in a chair, and then coming away with like a red Mohican, or something, 'cause they were trying out different techniques.

As a physio student, you weren't allowed your hair on your collar back in the day, so it was always scraped up. I met Phil in 1990, and there's some interesting pictures of my hair being very, very curly, and fluffy, and wild. 

But I was always scraping it up for work, so, I think I gradually, shortened it, I think, over the time. 'cause it was just pointless, I was just, you know, having to wear it up for work all the time. So yeah.

Helen: Was the red Mohican the first time that you dyed it?

Julie: I probably did the old Sun-In Shades, and Toners, and all that. And tried the lemon juice, and the chamomile, and whatever else weird. Was Sun-In a spray? I vaguely remember. So, I was always quite fair, which I was lucky, I suppose. 

And then the red Mohican, yeah, I don't think the Principal of my Physio College approved. I've definitely sat in the hairdresser's chair with foils, lowlights, and highlights, back in the day. 

And then resorted to home box dyeing. Yeah, so I was never a slave to the six weeks thing. It was a bit, yeah, I'd let it grow out. And yeah, quite like the sort of sun-kissed look, you know, where it was sort of at the ends.

So, yeah, that was my sort of dyeing history, I think. Yeah.

Helen: Can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Julie: I was thinking about this. I think I blame my daughter. I had my daughter at 30, and I was hospitalized with severe pre-eclampsia and was quite poorly, and she was premature. 

And I'm convinced I went not quite grey overnight, but I think I recall feeling that my hair had, yeah, definitely gone paler. Yeah. So, in my 30s, I think. Yeah.

Helen: And how did you feel about it?

Julie: I wasn't too upset. I think I had, you know, bigger things to worry about. Yeah, a newborn. And I wasn't a glamorous type, I didn't do a lot of makeup then. Wasn't a big deal really. 

And my hair by then was probably quite short, yeah, 'cause I enjoyed sports, and activities. So yeah, I kept it quite short after that really.

Helen: And did you start dyeing it to cover the grey?

Julie: I probably carried on doing the old box dyeing. I can picture them on the shelf trying to find the right shade of sort of blonde, strawberry blonde maybe. I can picture the shelf now. Trying different ones. So yeah, probably did that just to enliven it probably, just to make it look a bit prettier, probably.

I don't think I was hiding the grey, but just giving it a bit of life. But without going down the hairdressing expensive, yeah, regular dyeing route. Yeah. My hairdresser was not gonna retire on me, 'cause I really didn't go very often.

Helen: That's a lovely way to put it. That's probably not true for the rest of us either. When did you decide to stop dyeing it?

Julie: It's a good while ago now, I think. I'm gonna say at least 10 years ago. So, what am I? 58. So, I think I just realized it didn't really look that much better with these things. It was giving, this blanket look, although some of them were improving, so they weren't quite such a sort of solid colour.

I quite liked growing it out, and then having a radical short cut when I went, 'cause I wanted to get my money's worth. And finding a hairdresser that could cut curly hair was always a challenge for me. So, I think I ended up down the Toni & Guy's route, in Oxford. 'cause I found someone who actually could cut curly hair and knew how to cut it.

Yeah, back in the day, you know, my Mum was cutting my fringe where it bounced back up, and, yeah, the horrendous short fringe pictures. So yeah. I wasn't a slave to the hairdresser, which is probably, you know, part of it, I think. 'cause I couldn't find anybody to cut curly hair well.

Helen: So how did you do your grow out? What colour was it before you started?

Julie: I say luckily, I think I was quite fair, mousy fair. It was never dark, dark. So, I definitely inherited... My Mum definitely went white in her, I'm gonna say 40s. So, it was definitely my Mum's colouring. So yeah. I sort of don't ever remember that real stark contrast. I think I was lucky.

 I was quite dark at the back when I sort of noticed, when I was beginning to just ditch the dye. And I thought, "Oh, that's a bit..." I think that's what bothered me more, that uneven. So, I was dark at the back of my head, and light at the front. So, I was probably trying to hide that.

I kept it quite short. But gradually, I think it was Lockdown that there was the big decision that actually it grew, and now it's quite long again. 

Helen: Did you have it cut shorter to get rid of the dye? 

Julie: It was just lifestyle, more. I didn't have a hairdryer. I didn't have any brushes. Life was busy with the kids. My husband had been ill for the last 18, 19 years. Faffing around with blow-drying, all these tongs, that didn't interest me. So, I kept it short.

I quite like the short boyish look. The androgynous sort of, I felt it suited me. But, yeah. But now I've grown it long, I quite like it long. 

Helen: So, at the point of your grow out, it was quite short?

Julie: It was, yeah. I used to feel a bit robbed at the hairdressers, 'cause, I had, you know, a grade two, it was very, very short. But it was still charged as a cut and blow dry, but the, yeah, hairdryer never went near it. So, yeah.

Helen: But the grey didn't take very long then?

Julie: The change from the dark at the back, probably a couple of years for that to, you know, that difference in the sort of back of my head to the front. I was aware that there was a difference, and yeah, definitely not now. So, yeah, a couple of years of that, growing out.

And it was definitely Lockdown transitioning, you know, gradually sort of nice Bob. And then, yeah, gradually just letting it. And getting the curls back, and this sort of beachy, shaggy, curly hair that I probably wanted in my 20s.

Helen: But the actual getting rid of the dye part, that probably was maybe six months, or something?

Julie: Yeah, probably. Yeah. I say just gradually losing faith in that it was actually enhancing, or covering up anything. And deciding actually let's see what it looks like without. Yeah.

Helen: How did you feel about it during the grow out?

Julie: I didn't wear the make-up. I wasn't overly bothered that much. I was a physio in the NHS, I didn't have to look glamorous. And my Husband, he liked the way I look. And I think with it being short, that was easier. Definitely with it being short. So, yeah.

Helen: How did people react when you said you were gonna stop dyeing it?

Julie: I definitely had a friend that suggested that, there was a colour she recommended, and I remember doing it, and really didn't like it. And I think that was the pivotal, "I'm not doing it anymore." 

It just, yeah. It was practically like a silver. I don't know platinum maybe. And I think I went too white. I know that sounds odd, but I think I went too pale with it, and I looked completely washed out. 

And then there was some family photos. We had won a photo, you know, one of these group family photo things. And yeah, I definitely went, "Well, that's gone the other way." I went too white with it. So yeah, so that was definitely the last box.

Helen: And you've decided to grow it since you stopped dyeing. Why is that?

Julie: Say Lockdown was a big part, so I couldn't get to the hairdressers. Went through that awkward stage. I think I ended up modelling. I applied, that was an Instagram thing, for a campaign, Ageism Is Never In Style. And that was down in London. All strange time.

We were doing all weird things, weren't we, in Lockdown? And, I definitely had a full head of grey, but it was quite short then. But then gradually just started growing it out, just asking for trims and not going back to as short as I was. And it got to, you know, the Bob. And then it's, yeah, gradually got longer.

That was about, when was that? Very short hair in 2020. That was my Husband was in hospital for three months. So yeah, just as I say, life gets in the way, doesn't it? And my hair was not a priority, you know. Keeping it short was easy to look after. I could shower, and get out of the house or, yeah.

I used to be on my bike a lot to exercise. So yeah, faffing around with hair, and tying it up, and yeah, was not a priority.

Helen: How long is it now?

Julie: It's probably on my shoulders. Yeah. So, I can definitely tie it up. So I've got a ponytail. I'm not very good on what to do with it, just sort of scrape it back. But I've been on the beach this morning, so having hair around my face, and in my mouth, yeah, I've got a very acute gag reflex, so I need my hair, out the way.

 It's a good three or four months since I had it cut. Again, the hairdresser is not gonna retire on me. I go, and I like it, you know. I do a sort of a nice Bob. I still want to be able to tie it up. That's my premise when I go now. So yeah. I've got some hair bobbles, and I've got some big grippy things. So yeah. It's now nicely on my shoulders. Yeah.

Helen: And how's the condition of it now compared to when you dyed it?

Julie: I think it's possibly better. Yeah, I get the odd sort of yellowing look. I use the old purple shampoos. I'm not sure that's right, or wrong, and yeah. So, I try every different brand. Try not to leave it on too long 'cause you do get the old purple rinse look. Yeah, I'm conscious of the slightly yellowing sometimes tinge. 

But yeah, I get lots of comments from ladies going, "Oh, is that natural? " You know, the curls and the colour, I think. So yeah, quite often ladies who have definitely still got dye in their hair are asking me if that's natural.

So I go, "Yeah, yeah." I sort of do a bit of mousse, do a bit of cream. Stick my head upside down. Make sure I've got a diffuser. So, I've had to buy a hair dryer. Yeah, had to buy a hair dryer, with a diffuser.

Helen: 'cause it's longer?

Julie: Yes. To get the curl. To get the curl, yeah.

Helen: So, these ladies who are coming up to you, are they also saying, "I would do that if my hair was like yours"?

Julie: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, definitely every month if I'm out and about, someone will say, "Oh, is that natural? Is that your normal colour?" I was going, "Yep, yep." 

And they're yeah, "Oh, aren't you lucky?" , "Oh, I couldn't face, you know, going through that," the sort of badger look. I think I was lucky, 'cause I didn't quite have that extreme. 

There was quite a few friends that did actually grow it out during Lockdown, 'cause they just couldn't get to the hairdressers. So yeah, I was like, "Just go for it," you know? "Just ditch the dye," you know? " It's making you look really pale. It's washing you out." So, there's a few friends that have stuck with it. Yeah, so.

Helen: A different question now then. How do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Julie: Ooh. Well, I'd say as a physio by trade, the aches and pains, the menopausal musculoskeletal syndrome thing has hit me hard. So frozen shoulder, tennis elbow, dodgy knee. Yeah. Only just gone onto HRT recently really, because of that really more than anything.

My husband died last year, as you said at the start, and he was 60. We had this cancer journey for 18 years, which puts a lot of things into perspective. So hence didn't really give that much concern over my appearance. That wasn't a priority. Getting out, enjoying life, making the most of the time we had was more important.

And moving North, you know, I've met such amazing bunch of ladies up on the Yorkshire Coast. 

My wardrobe is quite extensive now. I'm not in uniform, in the physio uniform. So, I've enjoyed getting dressed. I've not enjoyed the extra midlife menopausal belly, so I've definitely gone up a dress size. But I don't beat myself up over it. Yeah, you know, it's part of the journey, I think, and accepting who we are.

Helen: Have the colours that you wear changed since you went grey? Obviously, it coincided with changing your career as well.

Julie: I definitely like a bright lipstick. If I'm doing anything, if there's any make-up going on, it'll be a bright lipstick, which I'm probably known for more up here. 

And my wardrobe is quite colourful. Yeah. Yeah. I had my colours done recently, but I think I've got quite a good sense of what colours suit me. I've ditched grey clothing, definitely. I don't I don't think that's a good look. So, I'd rather wear bright. Again, I'll wear what I like. 

But I definitely have made a move to ditch some of the grey jumpers, and grey tops. I don't think they do me any favours, so yeah.

Helen: Yeah, they're fading into the background garments.

Julie: Yeah.

Helen: What are you doing to age well in terms of being active, nutrition, that kind of thing?

Julie: I recently cycled to Paris, for a charity ride, London to Paris. Which I did 20 years ago. So I did it again this year for the Myeloma UK, which was one of my husband's... He had two cancers, and that was one of his primary cancers. Ended with loads of injuries, so it was a bit of a disaster. But I am planning to do it again, although friends think I'm mad.

I've got a whole set of weights in my bedroom. So, I follow an online platform, Owning Your Menopause, which I find the lady who runs it, Kate, just brilliant. She gets into your head. So, I lift weights. 

I've just been for a half an hour walk on the beach. I will get back on my bike. That's a mental game. I'd love to do reformer Pilates classes. And I'm a Nordic walking instructor. So, I think just getting out on the beach this morning, I did a bit of a litter pick. So, I do my bit for the environment. Take a few sunrise shots sometimes. 

And I paddle-boarded, across the country about three years ago with a friend. That was 11 days paddling from coast to coast, from Bootle to Goole. Again, for Cancer Research. So, did quite a lot of training for that.

Helen: Is that inland, or round the coast?

Julie: It's on the canals. Yeah. There are people that have done circumnavigation, but the sea's a whole different beast. On the canals, it's all quite safe. Neither of us fell in. We got attacked by swans. But yeah, it was about 20 miles a day on a paddleboard, standing. No injuries.

I like physical challenges to train for. So, the bike ride, I thought I'd done enough. But I think I'm gonna blame my new bike. I think the fit wasn't quite right. I've got an indoor bike trainer that I sit on, and do my interval training on.

I say, a whole set of weights. I did a 30-minute weights, upper limb weights yesterday. So, I try and do that regularly. 

Me and my husband were looking at the processed food thing, we sort of ditched a lot of that. I don't own a microwave. Fall into the rabbit hole of the whole collagen and creatine and turmeric. The jury's out on any of that. 

Started HRT, only at Christmas, but in relation to all these musculoskeletal problems I was having. So, I'm not sure it's made any difference. But anyway, I'm on it, so hopefully it will stop the other shoulder being frozen, which is my argument.

I was really angry that it developed, and it was a whole oestrogen thing. So as a physio for 35 years, that was never part of my, you know, agenda to look at the oestrogen levels of my patients. And I used to have lots of midlife women with frozen shoulders. 

The common phrase was, "Well, it's a midlife women thing." And I never connected, never associated that with the menopause. And then it happened to me. So, yeah, I was a bit angry about that. So, trotted down the GP, and got onto HRT.

Helen: That's interesting. I chatted to someone a few weeks ago who had a frozen shoulder.

Julie: Very, very, very, very common. And it's a massive oestrogen drop, and our inflammatory markers go up, and we all just put up with it, ladies. And I couldn't sleep. I literally was up in the night with an ice pack on my shoulder. And ended up paying privately for a steroid injection, on Christmas Eve last year. 

Oh, it was just agony. Yeah. And it's not quite... It's better, it's on the way out. But it's, you know, I couldn't get my wetsuit on for my sea swimming. I couldn't get a sports bra. You know, the knock-on effect, it really got you down. I couldn't sleep. 

You know, I'd already lost my husband, that was at the end of that year. And whether it was some reflection on the grief, and you know, what I'd gone through with losing Phil. 

But yeah, I was hoping to get fit for the bike ride, and ended up with a shoulder problem. So, I know it's not cycling, but it was, you know, impacting my training, yeah.

Helen: Interesting. So, I don't do HRT, or any of the supplements and things, and I always wonder whether you should. 

Julie: Yeah, I was a bit, not anti it. I'm on two hypertensives, ‘cause I had the pre-eclampsia with Alex 30 years ago, or 28 years ago. It predisposes you to hypertension. Again, which lot of ladies out there don't realize. So, I've been on the blood pressure tablets again, probably 15 years or so.

I had no other markers. I didn't drink. Well, drank a bit. Didn't smoke. But genetics, big family history, and the pre-eclampsia are all predisposing you to hypertension. And cardiovascular disease, you know, is the biggest killer, I think, of females.

So, I was a bit dubious about the HRT with my hypertension medication. But I was so fed up of my aches, and pains, and joints, and things, that I went on it. So yeah.

Helen: One last question. If someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," what advice and tips would you have for them?

Julie: Go for it. For starters, I don't know how people have the time, money, energy to either keep going to the hairdressers, or buying the boxes of dye. Yeah, age gracefully, or disgracefully. 

It's, you know, transformed what I do. I've been modelling since growing my hair out. I've been on the front of magazines. I've been in a bikini in a newspaper spread. Yeah, I'm doing catwalks. It's quite liberating, I found.

And yes, sometimes I sort of go, "Oh, do I look old?" Well, maybe I do. But I say it's a privilege in my view. I say, it's not guaranteed, is it? So, there's worse things out there to worry about. And I would say put your energy into something else. Yeah. 

So, wear the bright lipstick. Put on a bright top. Get a good haircut. Luckily, I found a decent hairdresser in Scarborough. 'cause that was my panic, leaving my hairdresser of like, 20 years in Oxfordshire when I moved North. I nearly thought of commuting down to my hairdresser.

So, finding a good hairdresser, who, you know, can help you with that transition. 'cause I appreciate for those that are very dark-haired, it's difficult. I think I was lucky, 'cause I was quite fair. I'm not an expert 'cause, I was never that transition. But, you know, have a good discussion with your hairdresser, about how you can do it.

'cause you'll feel liberated. And you can buy a whole new set of wardrobe if you want to, to go with it, you know. So, yeah.

Helen: Well, I wanna say thanks so much for joining me. It's been fascinating chatting to you.

Julie: Thank you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week.