Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Karla Osborne. She's one of the UK's leading grey blending experts and educators, helping women around the world move away from heavy artificial hair colour, and start working with, rather than against, their natural white strands. 

Hello, Karla. How are you?

Karla: I'm very well, Helen. Thank you for having me.

Helen: I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Karla: Hair was a lovely chestnut brown. I always had those lovely copper tones in the sun. You know, I'd pick up natural highlights in the summer, but I've always been a brunette.

Helen: And did you have long hair?

Karla: Yes, with a big, thick, heavy fringe cut by my mother.

Helen: There's a look.

Karla: Oh, yeah.

Helen: I'm guessing you maybe, moved away from that in your teens?

Karla: I did, I did. I remember having my hair cut like an actress who at the time was playing Danni in "Neighbours." So, we're in the mid-'90s at the moment, and I wanted my hair cut like hers. 

But I had no idea how to control my hair. It'd always been long, but my hair is poofy and thick. So, I had it cut really, really short and it just sprung out like a mushroom. I was about 14, 13 or 14, and I've never been that short since, 'cause I did not know how to handle my hair. 

But yes, in my teens my hair did change. And I guess, I started working in a hair salon as a Saturday girl around 13, 14. So I was always playing with my hair you know, experimenting with different colours. A lot of the time it was the reds. I didn't start doing the blondes until my late teens. Younger I was playing with reds.

Helen: Okay. And did you keep dyeing your hair from that point?

Karla: Yeah. Yeah, I did. And I think it was easier because I did work in a hair salon. And it was just the done thing, right? You're a hairdresser, you're experimenting with hair colour, you're showcasing your personality, to your clients, your friends, your family. 

And then, like I said, I went through the blonde stage. And then I realized that did not suit me. 'cause it went canary yellow, 'cause I was so dark. My brunette hair is so dark, trying to lift that to a nice creamy blonde. And this is before toners were really used in salon, so you just raw bleach and you got a yellow, and that's kind of how I walked around with it. 

I then had my son, and kind of went back to my brunette colour with a tint. And then stuck with that. And I was just doing my own roots, because I had left the salon at this point. I had a slight career change, and I was just managing doing my hair. 

I didn't have white hair at this time. I was just colouring my roots for depth. I think I quite liked the depth on me. And then obviously over the years I thought, "Ah, I've got some sparkly ones in there."

Helen: How did you feel about those first white hairs?

Karla: I didn't feel anything. I didn't hate them. I didn't love them. They were just there, and that was that. As like fine lines on my skin, right? They're just there. And then I was colouring, and colouring. 

You know, 'cause I never had heavy roots in terms of like high percentage of white hair, I would colour my hair before a night out or before a holiday. I'd always just re-put the depth back into my hair, where it had gradually faded, and started to grey. 

And then I would say about six years, so I'm 42 now, so in my mid-30s is when I started to realise, oh, I do have white hair. And working as a hairdresser but on my own, I wasn't in a salon, so I was still doing my own hair. I did not wanna have to pay someone to colour my hair when I was whiter, and whiter, and whiter. 

And I also didn't wanna turn into my grandmother, who is still colouring her hair, and she is very white now. So, I started exploring grey hair, white hair, what I could do with it, how I could work with it. 

A lot of my clients were facing a similar battle. They would sit in my chair, Helen, and say, "Here we are again. Let's do it again. Here we go." You know? I'd started introducing a roots and run service, because I realised not every client needed their hair cut and blow-dried every three or four weeks, but they needed the roots. I would let them come in, or I'd go to them, pop the roots on and just leave and let them wash it off themselves. A real quick, roots and run.

Which to my bank balance suited me, right? It paid my bills doing all these little appointments, and big appointments. But long term, I knew I didn't want that to be me. So that's where I started exploring a world of grey blending and realised there is another way of using hair colour. 

Although, the manufacturer instructions will tell you it's not designed for white hair, you can use it on white hair, and get a different result, a softer result. Less coverage. We don't all want coverage. Not everyone wants permanent colour. 

So, using demis to our advantage to camouflage those white hairs, and start staining them, and making them part of, like if you're a brunette, making them part of your brunette hair. Maybe they're now a golden hue where we've stained them, so like natural little sparkly highlights. That is where I started going.

And then I started mimicking. So, making clients who had the white root but a heavy tint here, matching what's going on at the root, and bringing it into their mid-length and ends, into that artificial hair colour. Which was softening the demarcation, and helping them get on board with seeing that white hair. They know it's there. Everyone else knows it's there. So, let's start working with it instead of against it.

Helen: Okay. Your own hair, you no longer dye it?

Karla: No, I stopped last summer. I went away with a group of friends to Ibiza in June, so I'm pretty sure I coloured it before that trip. That's traditionally what I did. 

And then I just think, I'm doing this work. And I love my work. I love empowering women. I love getting women to question why they're colouring it in the first place and their husband is not, you know? Why they're keeping up with this regime, this you know, outdated beauty standard that tells them that, you know, white hair is something to be fixed. 

And I started questioning it for myself, and I got curious. And a month went past, and I didn't colour it, and then another month, then another month, and I could really start to see something coming through and I liked what I was seeing. My Mum's natural now, and I love her natural hair. And I know if, I carry on I'll probably end up with her tones.

So yeah, it's been over a year. I'm about four or five inches in. I have whiter panels, like many women, it's very unique. But I have whiter around my ears. I've got some white patches farther around the back underneath. And then across my parting I'm still a very low percentage, but I like it. 

And now I do see people, instead of staring at my eyes, right, they're staring at my parting. They're looking at my roots, and it's funny, isn't it? You can see where people's eyes are on your face, and they're not, you know, they're staring at my roots.

But I think it's getting people to see that it's okay. No one's ever commented in a negative way to me. And I think because of my job, because of what I do, working with so many women, I think they'd be foolish to judge me on it.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah.

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: So, have you blended your own ends? 

Karla: I'm advocating the free route. I think a lot of women are seeing grey blending all over social media and the internet. And there is another option. You don't have to spend, and it is a huge investment because the amount of time that it's taking to do it, it is a huge investment. But there is the free option.

And I think the younger, or the earlier you do it, so, you know, the more pigmented hair you have, it's softer and easier to transition. I think if you leave it too late, and you become very, very white, and you have a stark contrast with your tinted hair, so your artificial colour, it is a harder journey. And I'm not sure I could have done it at that point, Helen. 

Yes, I'm growing mine out. I'm very comfortable, because I'm a very low percentage of white hair, and it's not too obvious. But if I was very white, I don't know that I would be able to do it. And I probably would have opted for a grey blend, to soften that transition, and then grow it out.

Helen: That's interesting. I do find it incredible the range of emotions that people have had around the process. So, some people are just comfortable to have that hard line, and grow it out. And kind of see it as a badge of honour.

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: Whereas other people are like, they really don't like the look. I mean, I personally, when I grew mine out, I just felt like a mess.

Karla: Yeah, you felt unkept.

Helen: Yeah, because you were so sort of, brainwashed into, "I should never have roots. As soon as I get roots, I need to do something about it. I need to cover it." So that whole sort of transition from the small root, all the way down to when I finally had all the ends cut shorter just to get rid of it, I just felt awkward, I suppose.

Karla: Mm. And I can see how you would, certainly if you are a higher percent. It's a very, oh, I don't wanna use the word brave. I get a lot of people use this word brave about embracing their white hair. And I'm very quick to say brave is donating organs. Brave is fighting in war. Brave is doing something over and above.

It is not brave to grow out your hair, or it shouldn't be brave to grow out your hair colour. But yet it's quite common that people are, "Oh, you're brave." I just think it's crazy.

Helen: Yeah, that it's such a big deal.

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: When it's just a natural thing, that we're conditioned, primarily by the beauty industry to fix, when it's really not a problem.

Karla: And I think, yeah, a lot of people felt with their first white hairs all went, "This needs fixing, so let's cover it." I speak to a lot of women, even if they're not having a grey blend, but we're just doing consultations, that they're looking for a hairdresser that's on board with grey blending. 

Their previous hairdresser's been, "Oh no, that will age you. Oh no, we need to cover that up." You know, that anti-white hair hairdresser still exists. And I think it keeps a lot of women trapped.

And it's really important that women do get on board with someone that's gonna support them. Because their husband may judge them, the shopkeeper might judge them, their best friend might judge them. But having a hairdresser that supports you in what you're doing, and championing you, is incredible.

Helen: So, grey blending itself, 'cause, I hear more and more people who've gone down that route, or are thinking about going down that route. How long does it take?

Karla: Honestly, I would say two years. The first half and the last half are probably the hardest parts. 

What you can do with someone like me, we work together for about nine to twelve months of matching hair colours, creating the blend, allowing new growth, allowing time for fade, and making the tone work. Once you get to that stage, really all you're doing is having toners to mimic what's going on in the mid-lengths, and keeping that cooler, so it matches the root area. 

And then it takes about two years to grow it out or have it cut, you know, have all that old colour cut out of your hair. And that's really what we're doing is we're waiting to have that old tint, that old permanent tint that we've now changed, but we're waiting for that to be cut away.

So, if you're feeling up to it, to go for a bigger chop every time, you'll cut it out far quicker, and you'll be fully natural far quicker. So, I say two years, and that's for someone who doesn't want to cut their hair any different, you know, they just wanna maintain their usual length. You've gotta wait for it to grow out.

They say a year to the ear, Helen. Have you heard about that? 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: Yeah. So, a year to the ear. And then another year down if you're wearing mid-length hair.

Helen: But it isn't that obvious, in terms of you don't have the hard line, is that after the first appointment, or?

Karla: First appointment is usually the biggest appointment, but I always say to my clients, "This is the one where if I put the effort in, and I nail this appointment, it will make the rest of your journey far easier." So, you're mimicking all of the white strands, and the pepper strands. You're matching colours where you can. 

And then we wait for fade, and we wait for new growth. So that takes another two to four months. And maybe on appointment three we can really start seeing it all together. Because whatever we do in appointment one is going to fade away. Colour fades. You've experienced it yourself. Toners wash away. 

So, we need to allow for that fade, and then we put that depth back into the hair, giving it something to anchor on, and we'll get more hold the more times we do that.

Helen: So, is it done with a semi-permanent colour then?

Karla: The depth is done with demi, demi-permanent. Which is acidic or alkaline colour, which is not a wash in and wash out. It's designed to stain the outside of the hair. It doesn't penetrate as deep into the hair as a permanent hair colour might.

And then lightener. So, a lightener, you'll know it as a bleach. That permanently shifts artificial colour in the hair. So, we'll also use that to lift out the tint that you've got on the mid-length, and the ends of your hair. You can't lift that out with anything but a bleach.

Helen: Presumably to do that first appointment, you need a certain amount of root to be able to see what the colours are like?

Karla: Yeah, you need to be able to mimic their natural hair. So, I could probably work with someone at about four weeks of root. I choose not to. And I do this really to challenge my client. I need to make sure they're ready for this, they're open to seeing their white hair, and they're comfortable being uncomfortable, because there will be parts of this journey that they will not enjoy their hair.

We all wake up with bad hair days, or you know, bad body days. The same will happen with this hair colour. They won't love it at every stage. So, I actually ask my clients to skip two hair appointments, so about eight to ten weeks-worth of root. And if they can't do that, then they are not an ideal candidate for me to work with.

Helen: Okay.

Karla: Yeah. That's just checking that they really want this, they're serious about it. They're getting used to seeing white hair against their skin. So that's kind of that first hurdle is really important.

Helen: And does that kind of minimize the shock that some people have, after that first appointment, when obviously their appearance is very different from when they walked in?

Karla: I think so. I think they're very much, "Oh, I didn't realize I had so much here." One client is wearing her hair up more at the moment, so she can get used to seeing this hairline where she's whiter. A lot of people do go whiter around the hairline. 

But she's always pinned it low to cover it with brunette. But she's been wearing it high just to get her husband used to seeing it as well. Because that ideally is what we're gonna make intentional. We're gonna put that colour in her hair like it's supposed to be there.

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: And not like at the moment where it's just rooty, and like she's let herself go. We're gonna make a feature of this.

Helen: Who is grey blending suitable for?

Karla: I think everyone who's stuck in a rut. Everyone who does not see light at the end of the tunnel, and all they know is root colour. Because it's such an expensive service, you have to really see the value in doing it. And you will only see the value in something when you've reached breaking point, and you just, cannot continue for another five years doing what you're doing.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Karla: I think a lot of women as well don't realize how sensitive they've become to hair colour on the scalp, permanent colour. The sensitivities, that they put their scalps through every three or four weeks, with the scratchy, itchy. They’re usually, things like that where women just cannot tolerate it anymore.

And also, a lot of my clients that come to me are transitioning with something. It might be a divorce, it might be retirement, it might be the kids have left home. Big birthdays are a big one as well. I don't wanna say identity shift, but they're just moving into the next phase of them, and their hair no longer feels like them now. 

And we spoke about this, about women colouring their hair the same colour they were at 25, and they're now 45 or 55. And everything else has changed, but their hair colour is still the same depth, or the same tone, because that's their identity. But actually, you are so much more than your hair colour.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Karla: Do you agree? 

Helen: Oh, completely.

Karla: Like, there's so much more to us. But we're so self-conscious. And again, it comes down to that outdated beauty standard that having luscious hair and, you know, youthful skin, is beautiful. But actually, it can be sexy. It is wisdom and wise, and it's a bloody privilege to be able to do it, and to have the white hair.

Helen: Yeah, I really don't understand the whole logic around hiding, and the whole logic around being ashamed of ageing, because aging is a privilege, and

Karla: Yeah

Helen: the older you get, the more you realize that to be the case, as you have friends who don't make it that far, and people are ill and you just, yeah, it’s not something to cry about.

Karla: It's something to be celebrated, and confident with, that you're there and you get to do these things. And you get to swish your hair around, and see you as you are. 

And I think a lot of people don't recognize themselves in the mirror anymore. Certainly, my brunette/blonde clients, they've just got lighter, and lighter, and lighter, 'cause of the more white hair, but they don't see that. They don't recognize themselves anymore. It just happened. They just kinda went from brunette to blonde overnight, or it feels like overnight, and they don't know how they got there. 

And what I do is reintroduce all of the depth, that they didn't realize they still do have in their hair.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah. The last person that I was editing yesterday, she'd always dyed her hair platinum blonde. So, her transition, she actually was darker at the end of it. 

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: And I was kind of like, "Ooh, to me, that's weird." But I guess if you've not got a lot of white hair, that can absolutely happen.

Karla: I did one. Exactly that, I did a client Wednesday I think it was. She just had blonde chunky highlights, but underneath was actually natural and dark, and she didn't realize overall how dark she was going to end up. Yes, she had the white face frame a bit like yourself, but when we took away all the yellowy blonde, and put that dark back in, her skin tone changed.

That's really interesting because I quite often take a front on, a very uncomfortable front on photo of my client before and after. Just to show them what this tonal change has done to them, and lifted their skin, or made their eyes pop, or their cheeks look rosier. You know? All these little things, that we don't realize that heavy hair colour is hiding.

Helen: Yeah, mine was bleached blonde, so it was quite yellow. 

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: And yellow is a colour I can't wear. It really fights with my skin tone. So, I could never have long hair when I had it bleached, because it just made me look really drawn 

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: and tired.

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: It’s longer now than it ever was when it was bleached,

Karla: You've got the salt and the pepper in yours still. Yeah.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Karla: I do have clients that have done the grey blend, and actually they're still quite salt and pepper, like evenly throughout. And they don't like it. They feel dull, or flat. These are comments that some of my ladies have said to me.

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: Now, what we will never do, and they would never do it anyway, is go back to global hair colour, where we're just painting tint on every strand on the head. But what we can do in this situation is enhance. 

Let's create some lightness. Let's add some warmth to this. Let's create some more sparkly pieces. But without signing them back up to heavy, you know, three and four weekly root colour. We're now looking at two or three times a year, reintroducing colour into the hair.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Karla: You know, 'cause some people do feel flat if it is just salt and pepper. I think we'd all love the striking white face frame, or, you know, the pops of flashes of colour, but sometimes you are just salt and pepper.

Helen: I think also, I've spoken to almost nobody who is the colour they expected they would be.

Karla: Interesting.

Helen: Because when you see the roots, you're always just seeing what's happening in that right front panel. So, I expected my hair to be a lot whiter than it is.

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: I've had a few people who are quite dark at the front and then whiter at the back,

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: But none of us really knew what we were signing up for.

Karla: You don't know what's underneath, do you?

Helen: No

Karla: Because you've been colouring it for so long, and years pass you by. Doesn't life just fly by you before you know it, boom. You know, you've come this far, and you'd had no idea what was going on underneath your colour.

Helen: Yeah, and also, I mean for me it was just such a habit. You would make the appointment for the next colour as you left the salon. Never questioned it.

Karla: Yeah, because you knew you were going to need it. And that's where you don't realize you're in a subscription with your hairdresser. 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: Now, I'm all for supporting hairdressers of course, but it is a subscription service. If nothing changes, you will continue doing that until you die. If nothing changes, you will.

Helen: Yeah, and need is an interesting word in that context as well.

Karla: Yeah. colour has become a need, and like it's no longer choice, it's necessity. And you've lost control at that point where you're routinely just booking every three or four weeks, 'cause you know you're gonna need it doing.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Karla: I have a couple of my clients travel for business, and they might be away for five, six weeks at a time, and they're constantly packing root sprays. You know, can't be on a Zoom call with my roots on show and stuff. So, it just takes over, and it's so sad to see. 

And I am so grateful that I changed what I was doing early enough that it's been quite an easy journey, and it's an exciting journey, and I'm enjoying everything I'm seeing. I'm the only one out of my friendship group doing that though. 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla:  Which worries me for all of my friends. We're all sort of early 40s, but they're all still colouring. Whether they're colouring to be blonde, that's very different, I think if you wanna be blonde and you're a brunette, you're gonna need to colour your hair anyway. 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: But those that are colouring brunettes, I do... I'm trying to encourage them, of course, but they are not ready.

Helen: No.

Karla: And it is that being ready, isn't it?

Helen: Yeah. 'Cause you've gotta be sort of questioning the standards that are being thrown at you, 

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: primarily by the advertising industry, and people who have been very conditioned by all they've heard over the years.

Karla: Well, think about it. When I grew up, all the princesses were blondes and brunettes, you know, and the witch, the evil witch was the grey-haired lady.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah.

Karla: That's what I grew up with. And I grew up with. And I grew up with home hair colour adverts and stuff. Because you're worth it. Do you remember that one? 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: That is, that's hair colour, isn't it? Because you're worth it.

Helen: Yeah, yeah.

Karla: Yeah. I remember going into Superdrug, might have been last year now, and the hair colour aisle was as long as the shop. I remember filming this going, "No wonder you lot have no idea what you're doing, or are feeling overwhelmed, or feeling pressured into colouring your hair."

There is so much choice in home hair colour. And a lot of those box colours, Helen, were permanent. Very, very few of them were demi. 

Helen: Yeah, yeah.

Karla: And they're permanent for a reason. That is marketing. They are signing you up to it, or you are signing yourself up.

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: Because you don't realize that what you're putting on is permanent.

Helen: Yeah. One of my guests was called Nola Simon, and she had a syndrome where she started going grey when she was seven. 

Karla: Yeah.

Helen: And her daughter has the same syndrome. And she said it's been very different for her daughter because of things like "Frozen."

Karla: Yes. Elsa.

Helen: Where you actually have a princess with white hair. So it's kind of like, yeah, they're no longer always the villains.

Karla: Yes, but we grew up, I certainly did as a 40-year-old, grew up with the evil wicked witch, or the wicked stepmother, and Cruella.

Helen: Cruella de Vil, yeah.

Karla: Evil, nasty. You don't wanna be like that. You wanna be youthful, and brunette a lot of the time. So, I do just think it's the way we have been conditioned. And with all of the things that are available to us on the internet, you know, I see a lot of women having fillers, Botox, all of these things to slow their ageing, or stop ageing.

And I'm all for a little tweak. I'm all to support my age. I take supplements. I wanna feel good. I wanna age healthfully. I wanna look after myself when I'm older. But we have been distorted into what beauty looks like.

Helen: Mm-hmm

Karla: Which is worrying.

Helen: It is, it is. I am gonna take you back to grey blending. 

Karla: Yes.

Helen: So, your clients, when they’ve had that first big appointment, and the colour is revealed to them, what sort of range of reactions do you get at that point?

Karla: I get a lot of hands to face, like shock, you know? Have this gasp.

When it's a brunette going to white, that never really happens in the first appointment. There's a lot of lifting that we need to do, and that's gonna take many appointments to get that lift. 

So, my key goal is to shatter the demarcation line in that first appointment for them. And create a tone that works with that colour that we're creating. So, for those girls, they can still continue to identify as a brunette really.

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: We're just softening the tint, the heavy block of colour that's on the mid-length and ends. 

But anyone that comes to me who's gone over. Over-highlighted their hair basically, and has now ended up blonde, I can make them grey pretty quickly in one appointment, and that tends to be a shocker. 

I've learned many lessons over the years, and I prepare my clients. I show them examples of what I'm expecting, 'cause I've worked with many women. 

I can show them another one of my clients before and after and say, "This is what I'm hoping for. This is what we're expecting today. This is how much dark you do genuinely have in your hair." And they're very, very ready for it by that point. They're excited and they're ready.

Helen: Do you have any that after that first appointment decide it's not for them?

Karla: No. No, I haven't yet. I've had people who have come through the journey, and recognized that their salt and pepper hair feels flat, or they feel dull. 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: And that's where we've done enhancements. 

I think as well, they're investing a lot of money in this. 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: They're gonna make sure they see it through. They're gonna trust the journey. They trust the process. And during my consultations, I'm very firm in preparing them for maybe not enjoying it at every stage, but it's part of this journey. 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: We are not gonna fix 20 years of home hair colour, or tint, in one hair appointment. It doesn't work like that. But I'm there to coach them. I mentor them. I'm there as their support.

Helen: Mm-hmm

Karla: To get them through it. Because like I said to you, their husband might not agree, or their best friends will probably judge them, or their mother will judge them for it, because she grew up in a generation that was different to ours.

But I'm the one that's always gonna champion them. I'm gonna support them, and remind them of why they're doing it.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah

Karla: What's the alternative? You give this a go for one year. It's one year of your life, out of the 50 odd that you've lived. Let's give it one year. What's the worst that can happen? You can always go back to hair colour. It's still there. It's not going anywhere.

Helen: Completely true.

Karla: Yeah, but you need to give this a go. One of my clients said, her friends were like, "Oh, so you're going grey," when they noticed her roots. And she was like, "No, darling, I am grey. I've just been hiding it from everyone for the last 20 years," you know? She's not going grey, she is grey. It's there. It's gonna be there.

Helen: And they probably have it too.

Karla: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I am starting to get the ripple effect, so I'm starting to do friends of clients or relatives, you know, the sisters are now coming in

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: of my other clients, where I guess everyone is a guinea pig in something, don't they? If your friend has done it and had a good result, then you're probably more likely to go ahead for it yourself.

Helen: Yeah, yeah.

Karla: So, I am now getting the ripple effect where I'm seeing friends of friends, which is really nice.

Helen: Which is good,

Karla: Yeah, no, it's great recommendations, and it works for my business. It's really nice.

Helen: One last question then. If someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," any hints and tips for them in terms of what route to choose? 

Karla: I think working out what your end goal is. Is it to go fully natural, never have to colour your hair again? Or do you think it's just about gaining control, and having hair colour for fun instead of necessity? 

Because that middle ground is actually quite a nice place to sit at with hair colours. You're still having your hair done maybe every three or four months instead of every three or four weeks. And then from there, it's a nicer transition out of that in two or three years' time, if that's where you wanna go, and you're not sure.

So, I always think starting with the middle ground is quite nice. Where some of my clients have come to me for the middle ground, they wanna just still be a brunette, but work with their white strands. But actually they're, like, halfway through and they're like, "Take me to my natural. Like, I'm really excited about this now. I wanna get to a natural position." 

So, I think yes, your goals can change, but knowing where you see yourself in one year, two year, five year, 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: what does that look like for you?

And then also the expense. We have to talk about the financials. You can carry on with your three and four weekly root colour paying what you pay. And I don't think when you work with someone like myself, you probably won't financially see the benefit for about five years. That's where the investment has paid for itself, and anything after that is almost free hair colour, you know? 'Cause you're not having to do that cycle of root colouring. 

So, I think the investment is a big one to work out whether you can afford to do it, or you're gonna do the free option, which is going cold turkey, and growing out naturally. And there is a huge support for that, there are so many Facebook groups and communities of women, Silver Sisterhood, Silver Sisters all championing and cheerleading.

And almost you get to a point where, "I'm gonna see this through now," which is really, really nice. Not that you're in a competition, and you don't know that you're in the competition, but you're, you know, you're sticking to it now.

Helen: I think Facebook's actually got some very supportive groups, and I've seen people posting saying, " I'm kind of having a bad day. What should I do?" And they do get an enormous amount of support from people saying, you know, "It looks great. Keep going," and

Karla: Yeah, or look back at where you started, how you haven't come this far. I consulted with a lady yesterday who's gone 10 months with no colour.

Helen: Mm-hmm.

Karla: But she's thinking about doing a grey blend now to get rid of the next year's worth of hair really that she has on the mid-length and ends. And I said to her, "You've done so well already. Like, I don't see the value, in the investment at this point." If she was up here and she only had an inch root, 

Helen: Yeah.

Karla: absolutely I would take her on. But when she's done 10 months and her root is now down by her ears, and she's still quite pigmented, she's still got a lot of depth in her hair. It's not terrible. I personally don't, I would not feel a fraud to take her money for it, but I don't think she needs to invest in a journey. She could do one or two appointments just to soften it, and then continue to grow it out.

Helen: Yep.

Karla: She's come that far.

Helen: Cool. Well, I'm gonna say thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest.

Karla: You're so welcome, Helen. Thank you.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week.