Helen: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or are just considering ditching the dye

Today I'm joined by Susannah Simmons, who after a brief flirtation with box dyes before COVID, decided to use Lockdown as an opportunity to embrace her natural hair colour. Six years later, she continues to rock the salt and pepper look, and has no plans to go back. 

Hello, Susannah. How are you?

Susannah: I'm very well, thank you, Helen. How are you today?

Helen: I'm good. I'm good. I'm run director at the parkrun near me tomorrow, so I've been out this morning checking the course and checking I've got all the kit ready. 

I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Susannah: My hair as a child was a dark brown. I had it long, it was thick and shiny. And in actual fact, I used to go to my Mum's hairdresser, and he always wanted to use me as a model, because he said that I had fantastic hair. So, I grew up with lots of compliments, at least from my hairdresser, about my hair.

Helen: And you said your hair was long?

Susannah: Yes. Well, when I was really young, it was whatever my Mum did to it, 'cause I think before she started taking me to her hairdresser, she used to do it herself. So, I did have a period in the '80s of a bit of a bowl cut, which was not attractive, particularly with my pink NHS glasses. 

But as I got older I grew it, and I must not have had it cut for the whole of my GCSE years because it was really, really long. Wasn't in great condition at that point, 'cause I'd left it for so long. But yeah, it was probably approaching my waist. 

I definitely don't have it that long anymore, and I'm not even sure it would grow that long anymore.

Helen: Did you experiment with colouring it at all in your teens?

Susannah: No, I didn't, interestingly. And I think that was partly the influence of the hairdresser, and my Mum, saying about how nice the colour of my hair was anyway. 

And I suppose my hair's a dark brown, but it had sort of blonde and auburn tints to it, and particularly in the summer that would lighten it a little bit. So, I think it had quite a lot of natural, sort of hints and tints to it that I didn't feel the need to colour it.

And to be quite honest, I couldn't be bothered. I've never been someone that's been that into make-up and things like that. And so, I think that just transitioned onto my hair and I just left it as it was. And yeah, I just left it, and liked it how I had it.

Helen: Okay, so you had it long. Do you think that was just out of laziness, or did you really like the look of long hair?

Susannah: I think I probably liked the look of long hair. I think as well I was probably influenced by my friends and the styles at the time. As I went into my 20s, I experimented a lot more with hairstyles, but not so much with colouring. 

So, I did dye my hair probably late 20s. Yeah, it would've been late 20s, and it was the first time I'd actually had someone else dye my hair. I wasn't particularly pleased with it. 

And then I was desperately trying to grow it out before I got married. Because I was trying to get rid of this sort of line that I had as my natural hair was coming back in, so that wouldn't show in my wedding photos. And I just about managed it. It was just the ends that were still coloured, that were tucked away in a bit of a chignon, that I'd had for my wedding day. So yeah, just about made it.

Helen: So, would you say your hair's been quite central to your image growing up?

Susannah: More so probably as I've kind of got into adulthood, less so as a child. 

I think one of the things for me about my hair, so I very much got the attitude that it will grow out, so I've not been precious about it in that sense. I know that a lot of people, really struggle with maybe going for a dramatic change with their hair. But I've been quite happy to have mine really short. So, I've had it sort of cropped, um, Bobs.

Currently it's shoulder length. The longest it gets these days is shoulder length. I do find when I cut it shorter, I tend to look in the mirror, and feel like I look like my Mum a lot more. There's nothing wrong with being like my Mum, I love my Mum. But it's that whole thing of looking in the mirror and not really necessarily seeing yourself.

And I very definitely have times with my hair where I've changed it, and when I look back at photos as well, I just don't feel that comfortable. I don't feel like it really reflects me, and who I am. It doesn't feel quite natural, if that makes sense?

Helen: Yeah, that does make sense. Can you remember when you found your first white hair?

Susannah: No, I can't actually. I think someone else pointed the first one out to me. And actually, I do remember the odd occasion, when there was just one or two, where I would have pulled it out.

But yes, it wasn't necessarily a big deal, and I think part of the reason for that is my Mum started to go grey at 18, and so I was fully expecting... and my Mum's been, grey ever since I can remember. I don't remember my Mum having brown hair. I only know she did have brown hair, 'cause I've seen photos of it, but to me she's always been grey. 

So, I think I had this expectation that it was gonna happen to me, and yeah, so I wasn't really looking out for it, and yeah, the first few didn't really bother me too much.

Helen: Did you reach a point where you started colouring it to cover the greys?

Susannah: Yes. And I don't know why, interestingly. 'Cause I've been quite fortunate that the early hairs were sort of underneath, so they weren't that obvious. And I think as more came through, they started to become more noticeable. 

And I don't know whether it was partly that thing of, "Oh, well, when you go grey, you start, dyeing your hair, 'cause it makes you look older and things." So, I did start dyeing it myself with box dyes. So, this would've been, just before COVID, so maybe a year or two before COVID, and I started dyeing it. 

So, I would have been, early 40s probably. So maybe that's another thing is that I'd hit my 40s. And there was a whole thing going on for me about ageing at that point as well probably. And so yes, I did start buying the box dyes to cover up the grey.

Helen: How often were you dyeing it?

Susannah: It started off probably about every couple of months, and then I started to notice that I needed to do it more regularly. And I also noticed that I didn't particularly like how my hair looked with box dyeing. I didn't particularly find a colour that I liked. 

I experimented with some slightly different colours as well, so more towards the black colour, than maybe more sort of the red tones and things. But I had that same feeling as I'd had with some of the hairstyles over the years. And I look back at the photos now actually, and I look at them, I go, "It's not me. It's just really not me. That's not who I am." So yeah, that was part of why I stopped. 

So, it started to become too regular, and I just thought, "I can't be bothered with this." Also, it costs money as well, and I was never going to spend all the money going to the hairdresser to have my hair dyed, for some reason. That is just not something that I want to invest my money in. So yeah, I got to the point that I decided that the time had come to embrace the grey.

Helen: So, when you were dyeing it, how did you feel about the roots when they started to come through?

Susannah: Annoyed. It was probably annoyance that, "Oh, I've got to dye it again," rather than annoyance about the grey itself. And I think that was part of the reason why I questioned myself, of why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? Because the effort of dyeing my hair bothered me more than the grey hair itself.

Helen: Okay. So, you weren't one of those people who was dyeing it around their social calendar?

Susannah: No. No, it just became part of sort of the routine. The grey would start to show at the roots, so the next grocery shop that was it lets pick a box of dye to try. And that was the next one that I would use, and then that cycle would continue. And like I say, that cycle was getting shorter and shorter.

Helen: Okay, and you said that you stopped during Lockdown. 

Susannah: Yes.

Helen: Had you already decided that you were going to do that?

Susannah: No, I hadn't. I think with just that opportunity, because by that point I'd got into that cycle, because the hair colour from the dye was different to my natural colour, that it was quite obvious. Having gone from sort of a very slight salt and pepper look, I suppose, to a dyed look, I then had this very definite roots, and I thought, well, it is quite obvious now.

So, the benefit of lockdown was, well, I'm not going into the office. Nobody's really seeing me. And I was a bit like, well, I can't be bothered with this routine. Also, my daughter at the time would've been 10, so the whole home-schooling thing. Energy had to go into so many other things, that it was quite easy for me to make a decision of, well, one thing that I can take off my plate is having to make time to dye my hair.

So, I think, it helped make a decision that I was already on the way to making anyway. It just made that decision easier.

Helen: That's interesting, 'cause some people have told me that basically they couldn't get hold of dye, so they were forced to do it. But you sound more like you made a conscious decision that you didn't want to continue?

Susannah: Yeah, and honestly, I don't remember trying to buy dye in Lockdown. And it may well be that I had one or two boxes still at home, and I used those, and then didn't even try and buy more. 'cause I don't know exactly the last date that I dyed my hair. But yeah, it was very much more a conscious decision, as I remember it.

Helen: And the grow out itself, how did you do the grow out? Did you just go cold turkey?

Susannah: I did. Yep. That was it. The dye was used. There was no more in the house. And yeah, just had to wait and see what happened.

Helen: How did you feel about it during the grow out?

Susannah: I don't particularly like the roots thing. I think the benefit that I had is having cut my hair multiple times, and having had to go through the grow out phase with hairstyles, I was quite used to that process of being uncomfortable with my hair, and looking in the mirror going, "Ugh, it looks terrible."

And because we were in Lockdown, and not able to go to the hairdresser, and actually everyone else is in the same situation, I think it felt okay. It was almost acceptable that you didn't necessarily look at your most coiffured during Lockdown. So, it was okay. So I think it helped me not sort of feel too conscious about people judging me for my roots and things, and yeah, so I was okay with it.

Helen: Did you have good days and bad days?

Susannah: Almost certainly. And I think that's aligned with generally having good days, and bad days, about how you look and feel. As a woman with monthly cycles and things, there are days when we look in the mirror, and we're okay with what we see. And there are other days where we just absolutely don't like anything that we see in the mirror. And the hair colour will definitely have been a part of that. 

And I can be quite impatient about some things. And I imagine I was probably quite impatient about, you know, wanting my hair to grow faster, so that I could get rid of the colour. And I think the other thing is that frustration of that period of not being able to have it cut, is that I couldn't get some of it cut off, to then see less of it.

And also the state of my hair, you know, the lusciousness of it. As I've got older it's got a lot thinner and drier. And the dye definitely didn't help with that, which was probably a factor as well in making the decision to stop, because I felt like it wasn't really doing my hair any good. And so to keep some moisture and stuff in my hair, yeah, it was another reason to stop dyeing it.

Helen: I think it's difficult not to feel impatient during the grow out, especially 'cause when you're dyeing it, you think the roots come in like really, really quickly. 

Susannah: Yep.

Helen: And then when you're actually growing it out, it's like, how is this taking so long?

Susannah: Yep. Yeah, definitely felt like that.

Helen: So how long did it take overall?

Susannah: I want to say it was 12 to 18 months. Thinking back on it, my hair would have been shorter then, which will have helped. Then as soon as we were able to get back to the hairdressers, then I'll have had quite a bit of that chopped out as well. So yeah, I would say probably 12 to 18  months, which I feel like is probably a bit shorter than other people would maybe experience.

Helen: I think it depends on the route people go down, 

Susannah: Yeah.

Helen: 'cause some people like to go for the Pixie Cut, and it's done.

Susannah: Yes, of course.

Helen: And then I've spoken to other people who've got waist-length hair. and are just growing it out.

Susannah: Yeah. I was somewhere between the two of those, so yeah.

Helen: What reaction did you get from people when you told them you were gonna grow it out?

Susannah: I had a mixture of reactions. Some people thought I was brave. That whole thing, "Oh, I could never leave my hair. I could never stop dyeing my hair." 

And then I remember one colleague, she's always said to me, "Oh, I love your salt and pepper look. I think you look great." Which was always nice, to give me that bit of encouragement if I ever had a wobble of was it really the right thing to do.

So yeah, very much mixed reactions. I think my Mum would always have been supportive because obviously she went grey. She just left hers to go, and she'd always been grey, so I think that helped as well. I had quite a good inspiration for going, yeah, actually, there's nothing wrong with having grey hair.

Helen: Yeah, and I guess your daughter was a little bit young to have an opinion?

Susannah: Yes. Yes, she'd be much more opinionated about it now than she would have been back then. She does, sometimes comment. 

And the thing that I notice now actually, is that I don't notice my grey when I look in the mirror, as much. I notice a lot more when I look at photos, when I see a photo and go, "Oh, oh, I'm that grey now."

And I hadn't really noticed. Just looking at myself day-to-day, I don't seem to really notice that, you know, I've got a lot greyer over the last six years. I'm more salt than I was, but I'm still salt and pepper. But the salt's sort of more prominently at the front. The back's still quite brown.

Helen: I'm guessing as well with the photos a lot of the photos will be outside?

Susannah: Yes. And so, then you've got the,

Helen: And it always looks lighter in the sunlight,

Susannah: Yes

Helen: than in a room.

Susannah: Yes. Yep

Helen: How about the condition of your hair now compared to when you were dyeing it?

Susannah: Well, I'd like to say that it has improved. However, the joys of, you know, I was early 40s then, I'm now late 40s. The joys of hormones, and the delightful perimenopause, and things, means that actually the quality of my hair hasn't really got much better, but for different reasons. 

I think the biggest thing that impacted my hair actually, was when I had my daughter, and the hormonal changes then. That's when I really noticed that I went from sort of having this thick hair to having much thinner hair. 

But I do think that not dyeing it, does benefit it. Like you said in the intro, I've got no plans to go back to dyeing it. I think I'd rather just condition it with conditioning products and leave it.

Helen: Are you using any special shampoos and conditioners?

Susannah: Not right now, no. Don't tell my hairdresser, 'cause she, she will have advised me to do certain things. It comes back to, you know, priorities for me, and it's never been a big one. 

I think one of the things for me is as my hair gets longer, I notice that, if I wear it down, then I do need to pay a bit more attention to the condition of it. When it's shorter, it tends to look in pretty good condition by itself.

So, at the moment it's gone a little bit sort of fluffy and flyaway, and I could probably do with giving it an intense condition and things. And I've probably got plenty of products that I could do it with. I just need to go and fish them out, and make the time, and energy for it.

Helen: I'm guessing you haven't really got enough white hair to be considering things like purple shampoos?

Susannah: Actually, one of my friends did give me some purple shampoo at one point, and I did use it for a bit. I've probably still got it in the cupboard. 

And actually, my Mum had mentioned to me about them 'cause she's had to use them before, in particular, in the summer. But yeah, I've not needed to use it. So, like I say, it's just sat in the cupboard. Maybe one day it'll get fished out, or I'll just buy a new bottle.

Helen: I've never used it.

Susannah: Yeah, like I say, I guess not being a products person, I tend to go for quite simple routines with that sort of stuff, and standard products in terms of shampoo and conditioner, so.

Helen: in terms of the colours that you wear and make-up, has any of that changed since you've chosen to go grey?

Susannah: That's a great question because I had my colours done, oh, a good maybe 20 years ago. Because I'd had it done with my Mum, 'cause she got gifted it as part of her retirement present. 

And the lady who did my colours, she said at the time, 'cause me and my Mum had very similar colour palettes, but my Mum's were slightly different, and the consultant said part of that would be because of her grey hair.

And so, she said to me, "As you start to go grey, you may notice, some shifts in your palette." And I have noticed that some colours that used to be very good for me, maybe don't look quite so good. And I can wear other colours now, say some of the more muted tones I wouldn't have worn before. 

And interestingly, my daughter keeps saying to me about jewellery. I've worn white gold and silver forever. But my daughter said to me, "Oh no, Mum, you need to start wearing gold." And I have just this week bought some gold jewellery, and I was wearing it yesterday. I think it helps that I've recently been on holiday, so I'm slightly more tanned as well. But I think with the change in my hair colour, I think the gold actually looks better than it did, when I was younger. 

So yes, I've definitely noticed that, and I've started experimenting with some different colours in the palette as a result of that.

Helen: So, what are you no longer wearing?

Susannah: I'm not wearing so much, and again, I don't know whether this is completely because of hair or anything, but I used to wear quite a lot of, sort of bright pink, so sort of the fuchsia type pinks and things. And I'm not wearing those so much now. I think it's more a case of I can wear more of the muted greens.

I've actually shifted away from black. I used to be able to wear black quite well, but I tend to wear more navy, grey, and sort of chocolate brown now. And I feel like those look a lot better on me now, than the black does. And I don't know whether that's hair colour, probably skin colour change as well over the years.

Helen: And make-up, you said you don't wear a lot of make-up?

Susannah: No, I put a bit on if I'm going out for the evening. But I haven't changed that hugely over the years. When I do wear it, it's usually just a bit of foundation, some mascara, maybe a bit of bronzer. And maybe a bit of lipstick, or sort of lip gloss. But it's very sort of natural, not obvious.

I've never been one for eyeshadows and things. Partly because I never really learnt how to do them, so I feel like if I attempted it now, I'd just look like a dog's dinner, so.

Helen: I'm sure your daughter will be on the front row to help.

Susannah: Yes. Yeah, she would be able to do a great job of my makeup if I let her.

Helen: Cool. I'm gonna ask you one last question. If someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," what hints and tips would you have for them?

Susannah: I think my top tip would be: Be patient. And be prepared to be frustrated with it, and for it to be hard in terms of having to resist the temptation to go back to dyeing. However, stick with it, 'cause it is worth it. 

I think going fully grey can be beautiful, and I think all the stages in between can be beautiful. And yeah, embrace it. Just embrace it. I think one of the things with going grey is that link to ageing, and some of the emotional things that we have around getting older. 

And actually, in the work that I do, I'm all about embracing getting older, and living well, and living a full life. And I think being able to embrace going grey and that as part of the ageing process can be really, really powerful, and helpful.

Helen: A lot of people have said they feel more comfortable with themself.

Susannah: Yeah, because you're the real you. The word authentic you, or being your authentic self probably gets a bit overused these days, but ultimately you are being the real you, when you let your hair be natural. So yeah, I think, you know, be comfortable in your own skin, and that includes the hair as well.

Helen: Cool. Well, thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest.

Susannah: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week.