Helen J: Hello, and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge. So, each week, I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Helen Pengelly. She's an independent adventurer who sold most of her belongings in 2024, and bought a one-way ticket to Australia. She's reinvented herself in her 60s, after a difficult life, and is an inspiration for other women. 

Hello, Helen. How are you?

Helen P: Hello, Helen. I'm very well, thank you.

Helen J: I am gonna start by asking you what your hair was like when you were a child?

Helen P: It was dark, very dark, and it varied between having it short. I mean, when I look at pictures of me when I was very young, it was very short, and I didn't like it 'cause I looked like a boy. And then I had it long, and it varied, yeah. 

But because it was dark, I started to go grey at quite a young age because one grey hair would show up.

Helen J: Did you experiment with dyeing it when you were a teenager?

Helen P: Only once that I remember, because I was going to a party or something, and it was already dark, and I dyed it black, so it was even darker. But other than that, no, because, I suppose I would've had to have done something quite extreme for the colour to show. 

I think once actually, I got like a dark blue one, but it didn't really, show, so I never really, dyed it until I was older.

Helen J: Can you remember finding that first white hair? How old were you?

Helen P: I was in my 20s. But one of my aunts, who's my Dad's youngest sister, was completely grey by the time she was 30. So, it was like, in especially on my father's side of the family, that they all went grey quite young, and quite early.

I think because like Anne, my aunt, she kind of embraced the grey, and she's 81 now, I think, but she doesn't look it. She always, like, had a youthful energy about her anyway. So, I suppose she was quite a positive role model in my life for going grey. Yeah.

Helen J: So you weren't that bothered by that first white hair then?

Helen P: No, I wasn't, no. It was more like comments my ex-husband would make. He wasn't a very nice person anyway, hence why he's an ex. 

But I wasn't, you know, it was just like, well, this is part of life. I've seen other family members going grey. And at that stage in my life, because it was only like one or two, it wasn't really an issue, at that point.

It wasn't until I got a bit older that it really started to bother me.

Helen J: So, when you got a few more and you got a bit older, did you start to dye it then?

Helen P: I did, yeah, when I was in my 30s. Because I could see I was getting quite a few more, and I didn't feel at that age, I was ready to go grey yet. So, because my hair was dark, I used to dye it, like, dark colour. 

And then my hairdresser recommended going a bit lighter, because obviously, you know, when it's really dark, that can make you look older as well. And then it got lighter and lighter.

And most of my 40s, like when you asked about did I dye my hair when I was a teenager? I mean, I was, like, a teenager when punk came in, and I was too scared of my dad to have wild hair. 

So, I think I made up for it in my 40s. I mean, it wasn't wild. It was just I had it dyed blonde, and then I had some pink streaks in it. I used to get quite a lot of positive comments about that, and I liked it as well, 'cause it was just a bit different and a bit funky. Yeah. But now looking back, I think, God, all those chemicals I used to put on my hair. 

But again, it's like you were saying before about the, difference between, like, the expectations of when a man goes grey, it's seen okay. But there's more sort of judgment against women who have grey hair. And I suppose that is kind of embedded in us, that when you start going grey, it's like thinking, "Oh no, I can't do this yet. I'm too young."

Helen J: So, did you used to get your hair done at the salon, or did you do it at home?

Helen P: I started by doing it myself, and then I used to get it done at the salon. 'cause I used to have you know, different colours put in it. 

I left England, two years ago, I'd been going to the same hairdresser for about 20 years, and I'd known her since she was an apprentice. So, I had a relationship with her. And I always used to say, "Well, going to the hairdresser's was cheaper than therapy." 

So, it's like that's me time. That's a bit of self-care for me, something for me away from the kids, you know. They're not there. I can go and sit down for an hour, be pampered, and not have to worry about anybody else. So, I think that that was part of the process as well, that this was something about me.

And so, I can have now at this stage, I would say in my 40s, and I can dye my hair any colour I want, because I haven't got to please anybody else, or worry about what anybody else says about my hair. I'm doing it how I want to do it.

Helen J: How often were you getting it coloured?

Helen P: Oh, I don't know. Probably every few months, when the roots would start to show. Because I was still quite dark, so she would, you know, do the roots for me. 'cause at that stage, when I was having it dyed blonde, the roots would show. 

It was funny 'cause I remember somebody saying, who hadn't known me before I'd started having it dyed said something about me being blonde. And I thought, "That's really weird, 'cause I never thought of myself as being blonde." But they'd only ever known me having blonde hair because it was very, very dark when I was younger.

So, I was like, "Oh, I never thought of myself as a blonde." That's funny, isn't it, how other people see us?

Helen J: So how did you feel about the roots?

Helen P: I think it was just more that, it looked untidy. And, you know, you hear people say, "Oh, I've gotta go and get my roots done." And there's that kind of almost a stigma around having your roots showing, and people know that your hair's dyed. I mean, obviously my hair was obviously dyed 'cause I had pink streaks in it.

Although I had some kids I was teaching, they were year eights, and they asked me if my hair was dyed. And I said, "No, it's all natural," jokingly. And then I saw them again another time, and I made some comment about dyeing my hair, and their faces, they were like, "But Miss, you told us it was natural." And I think, "Well, I didn't think you'd actually believe me. You're like 12, 13 years old. you'd realize that people don't have natural pink hair." So that was quite funny. 

And that thing about, you know, people with grey hair are old. And I think being a teacher, it doesn't matter, you know, even when you're 30, kids think you're old anyway. So, it doesn't really matter.

Helen J: What was the trigger for you deciding to stop dyeing your hair?

Helen P: I was curious really. I would have been in my early 50s by then, so about 10 years ago. And I just thought, "I wonder what my hair looks like underneath." 'cause I hadn't seen my natural hair colour since I was in my 30s, so nearly 20 years. 

And, as I said before, you know, in my 30s, I felt I wasn't ready to go grey. I was too young. But then I thought, "Well, now I'm in my 50s, it's not so bad." And I just thought, "Well I'll just see what happens if I don't dye it anymore, let it grow out, and if I don't like it, I can always dye it again." 

And it's quite interesting, 'cause I get so many compliments on my hair now. There are still some dark bits in there underneath, and it's not completely grey. But hairdresser used to say, "So do people pay a lot of money to have their hair looking like yours for highlights and things like that." But it's all natural, so I actually quite like it. 

There have been times when I thought about maybe putting a bit of pink in it again, but I haven't dyed it again. Say it was about 10 years ago. 

And then it was funny 'cause a few years later, during Lockdown, everybody started doing it, because they couldn't go to the hairdressers. So I was like, "Well, I did that before it was trendy." And then when people were talking more about, "Oh, let's embrace the grey."

I saw, I think it was on LinkedIn, a post the other day where somebody felt offended because, she'd put up a picture saying, "Do I look however old, in my 60s or whatever?" So, she obviously wasn't in her 60s because somebody had thought she was. 

And I remember the first time that somebody asked me if I qualified for a senior discount or something, and I think I was 54, and I was mortified. But then I thought, "Oh, hold on a minute. I can take advantage of this." 

It's like when you're younger, you pretend you're older to get into pubs, and clubs, and things. I'm thinking now it's the other way around. I can say, "Yeah. Okay. If you're gonna give me a senior discount, why not?"

Helen J: I'm gonna take you back to the grow out itself. So, did you just literally go cold turkey and stop dyeing it?

Helen P: Yes, I did. Yeah. I was going to the hairdresser to get my hair cut and stuff, and I said to her, "I don't wanna dye it anymore. I just wanna see what happens, and see what it's like." 

And I think because at that time it wasn't as dark. I was having it dyed blonde, so there wasn't so much of a contrast between the hair, and the dye. I think like maybe if you were dyeing it a dark colour and then the grey, that would be like a big contrast, and it would really show. So, I don't really remember it really being that noticeable, when it grew out.

Helen J: So, it didn't really bother you?

Helen P: No, 'cause it was my decision. As I say, it was just curiosity. It's like, well, I wonder what it looks like. 

And I think, you know, going back to what you asked me before about dyeing my hair as a teenager, I always felt like things like that, and wearing make-up, I never wore a lot of make-up because it just felt like too much bother. I've got better things to do than that, you know? 

And as I say, that stage because I was older and I felt, you know, again, it is society's expectations, isn't it? About ageing and stuff. I think, well, I'm in my 50s now, so it's acceptable. It's okay for me to be grey, because I'm a bit older now. Which is silly really because we can't do much about what happens when our hair decides to go grey. It's not something we have any control over.

 So, I've never really felt like dyeing it again since. As I said before, I've got some dark bits underneath, 

Helen J: Yeah.

Helen P: it's not completely grey, or completely white. I do actually get quite a lot of compliments on it. And I say, "Yeah, but it's all natural."

Helen J: Your hair's quite streaky like mine. Going back to the grow out, how long was your hair when you grew it out?

Helen P: It wasn't as short as it is now. It was a bit longer, so it was probably just about down to my shoulders, or just above my shoulders. I used to have it in a Bob. So it wasn't that long, so it didn't actually take that long for it to grow out. I can't even remember how long it took now. It feels like a long time ago now.

Helen J: How did your friends and family react to your decision to go grey?

Helen P: It wasn't something I made a big deal about. I just did it.

Some people commented that they liked it. "Oh yeah, it looks nice." I had a really good hairdresser as well, so I'd always get compliments on my hair. She knew my hair, and what suited me, and so, it looked good anyway. I don't really think anybody sort of made anything of it.

I remember one friend who would quite often say, oh, because she dyes her hair purple, and, she said, "Oh, you should put some colour in it," or some pink or some purple or, things like that. And I'm just thinking, well, I wonder if that's just a projection because she dyes her hair that colour. 

And then I've had another friend who's told me I'm brave 'cause she dyes her hair, and she said, "Oh, I'm not as brave as you to let my hair go grey." Yeah, so, it's interesting whether that's just other people's kind of expectations about what you should do.

I think my Mum has stopped dyeing her hair now. She's in her 80s, but was still getting her hair coloured. But not dark or anything, just some highlights, and things. But her hair wasn't as dark as mine anyway.

Helen J: You didn't have anyone discourage you from growing it then?

Helen P: No, I didn't. But I think maybe that was because I didn't tell anybody, or make it any big deal about it, or announce it. I suppose that one who might have done might have been my hairdresser, 'cause it doesn't cost as much to get your hair cut as it does to have it coloured. But, no, she was very complimentary of my hair, and liked it, and went along with what I wanted. 

So no, I didn't have anybody who discouraged me. And I think now I see, you know, more and more women are just like, "Yeah, let's embrace the grey." And I just think, well, if you walk around and your hair isn't dyed or it's grey, then you can hopefully show other people that actually it's okay not to dye your hair, and to embrace your natural colour. But no, I didn't have anybody discouraging me.

Helen J: Which is cool. Do you feel like you stand out less now for being grey after the Lockdown?

Helen P: No, not really. No, I don't think so.

Helen J: You don't think there's a lot more women now who have grey rather than, in the beginning when you let yours go grey, presumably there weren't that many?

Helen P: Yeah. I haven't really noticed, to be honest. It's not really something that, you know, that bothers me. I had some friends who've let their hair go grey, but others, quite a few, who still dye their hair. So, no, I haven't really, noticed any difference.

Well, perhaps more online I've seen it, rather than, you know, when you go out and about. And it's interesting, especially like 'cause I was a teacher and kids really, they don't have much idea about age and how old you are. And then sometimes I would get kids calling me Grandma, and I'd feel mortified.

And then I'm thinking, "Well, I haven't got any grandchildren, but I've got plenty of friends my age who have." So, I'm thinking, "Yeah, well, I could be a grandmother." Which is quite funny. But I suppose, 'cause I'm not there yet, or if ever, I don't know. It's up to my kids if they have kids or not.

But it's just like I suppose there's that thing about associating grey hair with your grandparents or something.

Helen J: Do wonder where kids get that from? Whether it comes from like stories they hear when they're little and things?

Helen P: I do think a lot of it is books and things, isn't it? When you think about like picture books, you see the grandparents with grey hair. And, you know, I remember their little Duplo toys as well. The family, the older ones had grey hair, and things like that. So, I think it's those kind of things.

And like you said before about the expectations, that are put on us, especially as women, by the beauty industry. 'Cause everything is like anti-ageing. Which I just think is stupid. Okay, maybe you can get Botox, or have a facelift to get rid of the wrinkles, but you're still ageing. Nothing can be anti-ageing, 'cause you're still ageing.

Helen J: You've really made me think when we were talking about books, 'cause you kind of think a lot of them were probably written a while ago, and the reality is that women are having children older and older. And if they weren't dyeing their hair, probably more of them would have some or even all grey at the time that they have children.

Helen P: Yeah. Well, I mean,

Helen J: But because of the image that's portrayed, that's not what they expect.

Helen P: No. I suppose, you know, I was 33 when I had my youngest child, so if I'd have let my hair go grey in my 30s, I would've been quite young when I was grey. 

I remember my aunt actually, saying about... I think it was when her kids were young, and she said that somebody at her kids' school had referred to her as the little grey-haired lady from the North, 'cause she's not very tall.

And she said, "Oh, that makes me sound like an old lady." But I thought, yeah, that was that image. You say, "Oh, the little grey-haired lady," you imagine somebody who's like old and maybe stooped over.

And now she's 81, but she doesn't look it, you know? It's quite funny. Yeah.

Helen J: Yeah, I was 41 when I had my daughter, so if I hadn't been dyeing my hair, I would've had a white streak at the front.

How do you feel about where you're at in the ageing process?

Helen P: Well, it was quite funny 'cause I'm 63 now, and when I was 60, three years ago, I was actually really excited about turning 60. I hated turning 30.

As you know from my bio, I'm traveling. I'm kind of like living my backpacking years now, my gap year, if you like. 'Cause I married young, had my kids young. So, it's interesting, 'cause as I travel and I meet people who are often a lot younger than me, and I think, "Oh, what must they think of me?"

And I think they probably don't really think much of it, 'cause most people are thinking more about themselves, than they are about other people. So, I notice those thoughts that, people are gonna be judging me doing the things I'm doing at my age.

But as far as where I'm at in the ageing process, it's a case of that I see it now as making the most of the time that I've got left, you know, 'cause none of us know. My ex-husband died suddenly at the age of 51. So, it's like I notice, oh, I'm a bit slower than I was, but I'm still pretty fit.

I go on hikes, and do long hikes and things like that. So, I'm actually quite grateful that I can do these things still, you know. Because we never know how much longer for. 

There are times when I get frustrated, like with chin hairs and my belly, and because I'm not a size 10 anymore, and things like that. Then I just try and remember, to be kinder to myself and to my body and thinking, "Well, this is the only body I've got." It's got me this far through life. 

And, you know, I go on the beach now, sometimes I wear a bikini. And I just think, "Oh, I'm not gonna worry what people think about me." Because if you've got a swimsuit on, and you need to go to the loo, it's a pain, so it's much easier if you've got a bikini on. So, it's like, I'm just not gonna worry about what anybody thinks of me. 

'Cause the first time I dared to wear a bikini on the beach I was in Italy. It was about 12 years ago. And I went down, I was feeling really anxious, and I realized, well nobody's actually looking at me. 

There were plenty of other older women wearing bikinis, and things like that. And I'm thinking, "Well, that might have been good when I was younger if I'd have seen more of that, of older women on the beach, and just not worrying about what they look like, or not." They might be inside, but just doing it anyway. 

Yeah, so where I'm at now, I'm grateful that I'm fairly fit, and that I'm able to do the things that I can do. But it's interesting because obviously, you know, like when I started working, the retirement age for women then was 60, so I would've been retired now.

But I don't feel like I'm anywhere near ready to retire. I just feel like there's still a lot of life left in me. There's a lot of things to do. And, now I'm older, I've got the wisdom. The thing I do find frustrating is not being able to work as much. Like, you can't get working visas when you're older, when you travel, which is annoying.

Hopefully that will be something that we can change eventually. Probably not in time for me. But when I've spoken to people, like in Australia where I am at the moment, and they said, "Oh, you want a working holiday visa?" And I said, "No, because you can't get a working holiday visa when you're over 35."

And they're like, "What?" And I said, "Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? We're expected to work until we're 67, so why not?" You probably wouldn't get many older people applying for it. But, a lot of people they work in hospitality, and things like that. And I know from having friends with restaurants and things like that, they said they'd prefer to employ older people because they've got experience. They don't need as much supervision. 

And so, it's really interesting that these perceptions that society still has around older people. And also, it's challenging my own prejudices and beliefs. The things that I should, or shouldn't be doing, you know. It's like my Mum will still say to me, " Oh, that's not really appropriate for a 61-year-old to be wearing," or something like that.

When I think about, you know, my grandparents at this age, yeah, they were like old people, and things have changed now. And I think that hopefully that we are becoming less ageist, I suppose, is the word.

Obviously, employers legally aren't allowed to discriminate against people because of their age. And I'm thinking: Well, how is it okay for them to discriminate against people on working visas? 

So, I thought I'll go and have a look on Australia's anti-discrimination laws. And basically, it says: it's illegal to, discriminate against people because of their age, except when it's okay for us to discriminate against people because of their age, or, you know, things like that. So, it's not really very robust.

And I think, you know, that's something that does need to change, because now especially with more flexibility with working arrangements, being able to work from anywhere, it's like, well, why have we still got these limits in place? And this perception that: Oh, well, if you're older you're gonna be a burden, or something like that?

Well, I'm much healthier now in my 60s than I was when I was in my 20s and 30s. Because for one thing, I had celiac disease, and didn't know it, 'cause I wasn't diagnosed until I was 40. 

But I take much better care of myself now than I did then. So, I've got a lot more energy, and I'm a lot fitter. Because wasn't really interested in taking care of myself, or didn't really think about it. I suppose when you're young, you think: Oh, I'm gonna live forever. 

But now I'm more conscious about, I suppose, again, you're getting older, you want to have the best life that you can with the years that you've got left.

Helen J: I am gonna ask you one last question. If someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking about going grey," what hints and tips would you have for them?

Helen P: Well, I would say obviously it's a personal decision. And I would say do it for you, not because anybody else is suggesting it or wants you to, or thinks you should dye your hair. I would just say that it's up to you. It's personal.

And like I said, you probably don't even need to tell anybody. It's like just do it, if you want to. Just stop dyeing your hair or gradually, you know, get a colour that's closer to your natural colour. If you really hate it and you don't like it, there's nothing to stop you going and dyeing your hair again, is there? So, it's not a final decision. It's just like you can just try, and experiment, and see how you feel. 

As I said, I knew that I wasn't ready in my 30s, but then when I was in my 50s, I was. So it's up to them really whether they feel ready.

And I think I've seen people saying that seeing women going grey and embracing their grey, does then inspire them to stop worrying about what society thinks, and why should I keep dyeing my hair because of their expectations? 

And like I said, think about, you know, all the chemicals that are in dyes and stuff, that you're putting on your hair, that's not good either. So, it could be a health decision as well.

Helen J: I have spoken to guests who that is the case. Thanks so much for joining me. You've been a fascinating guest. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Helen P: Thank you, Helen. And you too. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Helen J: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @happier.grey. Have a great week.